NPS Market Square

Utah_Patriot · Jun 12, 2009

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Went shopping at NPS on Empire road when the security officer asked me if I was Law Enforcement I said no. The Security officer said I had to conceal the firearm. So I concealed it since I was with friends. After leaving the Wherehouse I went over to Market Square with my friends. Tucked my shirt in after I left the wherehouse.

As I was shopping at market square NPS I was approched by4 SLCPD Officers two of the female officerswith shotguns and the two males officers approched me by the electronics counter. asked to speak with me One of the male officers detained me while the other took my firearm and unloaded it.

I told them where my CCW Permit was and my ID. They checked my Permit and CCW and walked me out of NPS Market in Handcuffs.

After everything verified I was released the Officer walked my firearm back to my friends Car and put it in the trunk and walked away

No Charges were filed officers were very cordial. Officers stated they just had a class on this and knew the law fairly well was very impressed

b1ack5mith · Jun 12, 2009

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if they knew the law very well, why the **** would they detain you???

Citizen · Jun 12, 2009

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b1ack5mith wrote:

if they knew the law very well, why the **** would they detain you???

+1

What was their reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) for a full-blown Terry Stop with shotguns?

Unless there is something you are not telling us, your 4A rights wereinfringed.

Utah_Patriot · Jun 12, 2009

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The security officer told police I would not Identify myself and walked away. Never did he ask me for my ID or to leave

Citizen · Jun 12, 2009

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gunsfreak4791 wrote:

The security officer told police I would not Identify myself and walked away. Never did he ask me for my ID or to leave

What was their reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) for a full-blown Terry Stop with shotguns?

Kevin Jensen · Jun 13, 2009

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gunsfreak4791 wrote:

officers were very cordial. Officers stated they just had a class on this and knew the law fairly well was very impressed

They detain you with shotguns, lead you out like a felon in handcuffs, put your gun in someone elses car,and you call them cordial and knowledgable?

You were impressed? :shock:

Something sounds fishy here... :?

DJ_Amish · Jun 13, 2009

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Did you ask them to wear a condom before they screwed with your right? I hate reading how everyone thanks the cop for detaining them. We have to start standing up to this misuse and abuse of power.

Utah_Patriot · Jun 13, 2009

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No I was not impressed with what happened. I am looking at ways to pursue this and most likely obtain legal advice. On monday I will stop by SLCPDand speak with the captain about the Incident. Any Advice would be nice

scorpioajr · Jun 13, 2009

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gunsfreak4791 wrote:

...Officers stated they just had a class on this and knew the law fairly well was very impressed

Sucks that you were still detained and handcuffed even though they claim they just finished a class on "this" (OC ?) i dunno.

it doesn't sound like they billy-clubbed you in the parking lot or anything, but i wish they wouldn't have escorted you out, handcuffed you, and put your firearm in the trunk. You have a CFP, if they know the laws from the class they just took (assuming it was on OC) they should have known that you weren't breaking any laws and what they did was a bit excessive.

I'm not sure what worse, the fact that they took a class on OC and still treated you like this, or that the class they took taught them this protocol. Scary..

i appriciate that you said they were a bit cordial with you, but that is practically all but voided by their actions. Too bad.

thx997303 · Jun 13, 2009

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Hmm, seems like the best thing to do would be to call Mitch Vilos.

http://www.firearmslaw.com/index-attorney.html

Probably need the police report, 911 call tape, radio traffic tape, etc.

IANAL, but Mitch is. Give him a call.

Citizen · Jun 13, 2009

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ProtectedBy9mm wrote:

SNIP if they know the laws from the class they just took (assuming it was on OC) they should have known that you weren't breaking any laws...

Which is another way of saying they confessed to knowingly violating his rights.

Citizen · Jun 13, 2009

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gunsfreak4791 wrote:

No I was not impressed with what happened. I am looking at ways to pursue this and most likely obtain legal advice. On monday I will stop by SLCPDand speak with the captain about the Incident. Any Advice would be nice

My advice would be to not talk to the captain or the police. We have several experiences here where police were happy to talk with someone. No record. No formal complaint. No paper trail. Just sweep it under the rug after the complaintant is mollified by being "listened to."

Talk to the attorney if you can afford it.

At a minimum file a formal complaint.

But, first, obtain the records THX mentions in his post just above. You want to find out whether the police really had RAS or not. What was 911 told by the caller? What was radioed to the officers? What did the officers report back?

To THX's list I might add dashcam videos andtext messages fromthe computer terminals in the police cars.

LovesHisXD45 · Jun 13, 2009

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thx997303 wrote:

Hmm, seems like the best thing to do would be to call Mitch Vilos.

http://www.firearmslaw.com/index-attorney.html

Probably need the police report, 911 call tape, radio traffic tape, etc.

IANAL, but Mitch is. Give him a call.

+1 & here is his number 801-560-7117.

I would have torn a hole in those cops so big, you could see their peon brains through their anal sphincter. There must be something that the security guy said to the police that is not revealed here in order for them to have enough concern to detain you and confiscate your weapon and haul you off of the property in handcuffs. Depending on the situation, you may have a good case against the city. Make those bastads pay! I would! You might want to edit your post on here though, or else it could be used to show that you thought the cops were very professional. Doh! lol

Kevin

rpyne · Jun 13, 2009

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Was one of the officers named Curdie by chance?

See Lund v Salt Lake City (2008) US District Court Civil No. 2:07-CV-0226BSJ
MEMORANDUM OPINION & ORDER (Fed. R. Civ. P. 56)

Pay particular attention to Footnote 9.

By itself, mere possession of a firearm in public is not unlawful and may well represent the exercise of a fundamental constitutional right guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, § 6 of the Utah Constitution (recognizing the “individual right of the people to keep and bear arms for security and defense of self, family, others, property, or the state, as well as for other lawful purposes,” subject to the power of the Legislature to define the “lawful use of arms.”). See District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783, 2799 (2008) (“There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms.”); see also Utah Code Ann. §§ 76-10-500 to 530 (2003 & Supp. 2008) (Utah Firearms Act). In Utah, the carrying of a concealed weapon on one’s person in public is a matter of State licensing and regulation, and is routinely permitted pursuant to the applicable State statute. See Utah Code Ann. §§ 53-5-701 to 711 (Supp. 2008). The legislature has explicitly denied local governmental entities such as Salt Lake City the power to limit or restrict possession of a firearm on public property: “Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.” Utah Code Ann. § 53-5a-102 (Supp. 2008); see University of Utah v. Shurtleff, 2006 UT 51, ¶ 11, 144 P.3d 1109, 1113 (observing that the enactment of § 53-5a-102 in 2004 “dramatically altered the legal landscape, rendering it clear that Utah’s firearms statutes are universally applicable”). The legislature has authorized municipalities only to “regulate and prevent the discharge of firearms, rockets, powder, fireworks or any other dangerous or combustible material.” Utah Code Ann. § 10-8-47 (2007).

As articulated by the Utah Legislature, public policy in this State may fairly be read to condone and even encourage gun ownership and the lawful possession and carrying of firearms in public places. Salt Lake City’s asserted governmental interest in its police officers’ response to a report of a “man with a gun” in a public park cannot be weighed in isolation from this oft-emphasized public policy. In that context, there may well be more individual constitutional rights at stake than the Fourth Amendment freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

This case reiterates that detaining or arresting someone for simply possessing a firearm is a violation of their 4th Amendment rights.

Definitely talk to Mitch or another well versed attorney.

scorpioajr · Jun 13, 2009

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LovesHisXD45 wrote:..

I would have torn a hole in those cops so big, you could see their peon brains through their anal sphincter....

Daaaaaaaaaaaaang!!! Don't piss LovesHisXD45 off!
You tell 'em!

Ultimately, you'll have to decide your course of action. Just be sure to DO something about it, don't just sit on it. I know a certain attorney that would write you letter to any department you want for $400, most would. Just don't sit on it.

thx997303 · Jun 13, 2009

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since when do the police use text messages? Thats a new one to me.

I cant believe this happenes in SLC though, after all of TJ's hard work.

Citizen · Jun 13, 2009

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thx997303 wrote:

since when do the police use text messages? Thats a new one to me.

I cant believe this happenes in SLC though, after all of TJ's hard work.

Those nifty little computer screens and keyboards in the patrol cars are used to send messages. I'm talking police communications, not personal e-mails.

The Manassas, VA PDpolice carmessages were a part of the information obtained by the OCers harassed at Tony's Restaurant in early 2007. The text messages start at about page 14 of the pdf:

http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/MCPD_FOIA_Response.pdf

rpyne · Jun 13, 2009

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thx997303 wrote:

since when do the police use text messages? Thats a new one to me.

Utah County Sheriffs Office uses instant messaging on a regular basis.

Kevin Jensen · Jun 13, 2009

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rpyne wrote:

Utah County Sheriffs Office uses instant messaging on a regular basis.

Thanks to this and trunked radio systems, my scanner now collects dust.

thx997303 · Jun 14, 2009

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Sad isnt it? My Grandpa always had a scanner going at his house. It was fun to listen to, and you knew what was going on around you.

Now it just picks up ambulance calls.

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