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Thread: Why have a gun in a hotel room? Two robbers die after Norfolk hotel gunfight with CHP holder.

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    Electrical contractors from Richmond/Chesterfield were staying at a Norfolk hotel while working at a local school making lighting upgrades. Three robbers knocked on their hotel room door and burst in when they answered the door and attempted to rob them. One contracter had a CHP and a handgun.He was wounded in the ensuing shootout, but managed to kill one robber and mortally wound a the second. The third robber managed to escape. :what:Not bad. Two out of three after being shot himself.

    http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/seco...hotel-gunfight

    Second man dies from Norfolk hotel gunfight

    NORFOLK

    A second man has died as the result of a gunfight inside a motel room, and police said Friday that an attempted robbery appeared to be what set things off.

    Trevor L. Pauley, 20, of Norfolk had been hospitalized in grave condition after the incident early Thursday at the Econo Lodge at 865 N. Military Hwy. A Sentara Norfolk General Hospital spokeswoman said Pauley died about 1:45 a.m. Friday.

    Police said Pauley was one of three men, at least one of whom was armed, who forced their way shortly before 2:15 a.m. Thursday into a room occupied by two men, one of whom legally had a weapon.

    Gunfire erupted, and one of those entering the room, Dante F. Cooley, 22, of Virginia Beach, was pronounced dead at the scene.

    Cooley died from a gunshot wound to the back and Pauley from one to the head, the state medical examiner's office reported Friday.

    The motel guest who shot Cooley and Pauley - his identity hasn't been released by police - also was wounded in the exchange and hospitalized, but his condition was improving, police said.

    The third man who entered the room fled in a silver-colored vehicle, and police were still looking for him Friday, they said. The second motel guest wasn't injured, police said.

    The investigation is ongoing, but no charges are expected from police, said Master Police Officer Chris Amos, department spokesman. The investigation results will be sent to the commonwealth's attorney, who will determine whether the fatal shootings were justified, he said.

    "At this point, it looks like attempted robbery - nothing to do with drugs," Amos said. "It didn't pan out the way they expected."

    Pauley's death was Norfolk's 27th homicide of the year, two of which were police shootings determined to be justified.

    Matthew Bowers, (757) 222-3893, matthew.bowers@pilotonline.com





    http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/norf...-1-dead-2-hurt



    Norfolk Econo Lodge shootout leaves 1 dead, 2 hurt

    NORFOLK

    At least one of three men who forced their way into a Military Highway motel room was armed.

    So was one of the two men occupying the room.

    A shootout that ensued early Thursday left one of the room-crashers dead at the scene and another barely clinging to life, police said. One of the room occupants also was wounded, but his condition was improving, said Master Police Officer Chris Amos, department spokesman.

    The second occupant was unhurt, and police were still looking for the third attacker, who fled in a silver vehicle, Amos said.

    The death was Norfolk's 26th homicide of the year, two of which were police shootings determined to be justified.

    That compares with 29 homicides all of last year, of which one was a justified police shooting, and 50 in 2007, including three justified police shootings, according to police records.

    Pronounced dead at Thursday's scene was Dante Cooley, 22, of Virginia Beach.

    Police said that shortly before 2:15 a.m., he and two other men knocked on a room door at the Econo Lodge, 835 N. Military Hwy. When the door opened, the three forced their way in, and the gunfight broke out, police said.

    The motel is just off Virginia Beach Boulevard, across the street from The Gallery at Military Circle mall. Police reported 89 calls for service there in the past year - one every four days on average - with about a third for disorderly people or other disturbances. Remaining calls included three regarding weapons, and others for assaults, robberies and thefts.

    The shooting death at the motel was one of 20 in the city this year that involved guns, not counting the two police shootings, Amos said. Killers used handguns 15 times and a shotgun once. The gun hasn't been determined in four other cases.

    Other than that, "there's no pattern" that police can use to develop prevention strategies, Amos said.

    "Most are not random," he said. "But it runs the gamut, from the robbery, to the home invasion, to the domestic."

    Matthew Bowers, (757) 222-3893, matthew.bowers@pilotonline.com
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    they are calling the criminal's death a homocide? this one is definitely justifiable, just like the police officer's shootings.

    gotta love The Pilot flying it's monoplane. you know...the one with only one left wing.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    It is a homicide.

    hom·i·cide
    n.
    1. The killing of one person by another.
    No value statement implied.

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    marshaul wrote:
    It is a homicide.

    hom·i·cide
    n.
    1. The killing of one person by another.
    No value statement implied.
    You know that and I know that, but does the average citizen know that? "Journalists" choose their wording very specifically to get specific emotional reactions, reporters chose their words carefully to convey facts.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Would you rather they printed "gunned down in the back" or "shot from behind" or "pulled out his gat and wasted them"?

    The as-yet unidentified victim (the guy who killed two robbers, at least one of whom was armed) may yet face trial - although it sounds unlikely. The possibility of a civil suit from the heirs and estates of the two persons who were just about to turn their lives around is much greater.

    A defense of either justified or excusable homicide is usually good for either a criminal or civil action. It also works well should there be any emotional/psychological issues experienced by the victim.

    And speaking of victims, I note with glee that the paper never used the term. Bonus points to The Pilot. <I cannot believe I'm actually saying that!>

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    WCrawford wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    It is a homicide.

    hom·i·cide
    n.
    1. The killing of one person by another.
    No value statement implied.
    You know that and I know that, but does the average citizen know that? "Journalists" choose their wording very specifically to get specific emotional reactions, reporters chose their words carefully to convey facts.
    I don't think that's the case here. This case is too cut and dry, no sense reporting on it if you're anti-gun without including some serious hysteria which just isn't here.

    This guy is a reporter, and he was reporting the facts. The number of homicides is a recorded statistic in every jurisdiction, and people are interested to know what percent of homicides are legal (self-defense accomplished, crime prevented) vs illegal (murder accomplished).

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    First report I saw of this was quite sensationalized - "Shootout in Hotel."
    Makes it all sound like Dodge City. Could have said "Successful Self-Defense."

    http://www.wvec.com/news/topstories/....6d00123b.html

    Hope the contractor recovers fully and has no legal problems following.
    We need protection from civil liability in Va.

    Yata hey
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    We need protection from civil liability in Va.

    Yata hey
    Absolutely. Let's plan on lobbying for that next year at the General Assembly. Does anyone know if that specific issue has been seriously proposed before?

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    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    I just received a letter from the NRA asking me to support Castle Doctrine in Virginia.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    kimbercarrier wrote:
    I just received a letter from the NRA asking me to support Castle Doctrine in Virginia.
    Can you scan the letter & post it?

    IMNSHO the Castle Doctrine we have under common law is going to be better than anything we could get through the General Assembly. Not only do we have no duty to retreat in our homes and the curtilige of our homes, but anywhere we are lawfully at. We already can "stand our ground" more than many states with laws by that name. Anything legislated is going to wipe out a long history of case law and probably be so full of exclusions and exemptions that it will be hollow.

    Now if the NRA, like many others, has confused itself over Civil Immunity, I'm all for that.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    yes, Skidmark, you are quite right. There is a difference between "Castle Doctrine" and "Civil Immunity". While I disagree that the codifying of what some would call the Castle Doctrine would be a bad or hollow thing, I concur completely that we need immunity from civil suits here in VA.

    The enacting of that which has come to be called "The Castle Doctrine" would not negate past case history but would rather be applied in view of past case law since the passing of such a bill would not repeal any other laws. But most do not share my views on that subject.

    One thing is for sure: we need to have laws passed in Virginia that would provide immunity from civil suits in cases involving legal actions by citizens. If for example I shoot and kill an intruder, that is legal (lawful self defense, etc.) and therefore I think that there should not be even a possibility of a the criminal's estate filing a civil suit against me.

    I have been beating the drum for immunity from civil lawsuits for a long time. I'm glad others have as well. I truly believe that this should be our next main objective.

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    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    I have to find it and then I'll try to post it. And if I'm not mistaken part of Castle Doctrine is that if found criminally innocent you can't bring a civil suit against them.

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    True, civil immunity is often included as a part of "Castle Doctrine" laws, but as Skid (thankfully) often reminds us, they're two related but distinct issues. In Virginia, we need one and not the other.

    ~ Boyd

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    6L6GC wrote:
    One thing is for sure: we need to have laws passed in Virginia that would provide immunity from civil suits in cases involving legal actions by citizens. If for example I shoot and kill an intruder, that is legal (lawful self defense, etc.) and therefore I think that there should not be even a possibility of a the criminal's estate filing a civil suit against me.
    One issue here is the difference in burden of proof between a criminal case against you and a civil case against you. If you are acquitted of murder by claiming self-defense, it only means a reasonable doubt exists that you are guilty. On the other hand, in a civil case, that same mere reasonable doubt could result in a finding against you.

    So, even if you had legal protection against suits if you acted in self-defense, you would still need to prove to the civil court that that was in fact the case.

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    IF Virginia passes some form of civil immunity, weshouldbe protected against lawsuits by the perpetrator or, if they are deceased, their heirs, assigns, and estate. Further, we will be protected from lawsuits claiming such things as lost income. loss of consortium, and pain&suffering. It should cover us against state civil rights claims as well, although we will remain open to federal civil rights lawsuits. This removes all of GWRedDragon's concerns at the state level. Not much we can do at the federal level at the moment, although I am not aware of anybody suceeding in a federal civil rights lawsuit where civil immunity is in place at the state level.

    There is disagreement among the "experts" and among the citizenry whether or not legislating "castle doctrine" will not negate past caselaw but would rather be applied in view of case law since the passing of such a bill would not repeal any other laws. It all depends on how the bill is worded, how the legislative intent history is recorded, and most of all how the courts will interpret the legislation.

    If we were asked toprioritize the two issues, I would put civil immunity at the top of the list and legislated castle doctrine way down at the bottom. YMMV.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    In my opinion, the self-defense court precedent here in Virginia (derived from common law) achieves a good balance of interests. I can't imagine a scenario where I would feel the law unjustly prohibits me from utilizing deadly force.

    Civil immunity, on the other hand, is a must. I never understood how it became accepted precedent that a person could be liable for defending themselves against another's assault. I'd like to know the argument that got that all started. Such a conclusion is clearly inherently contradictory with the entire nature of what liability is and how it is applied. Or is it all due to the burden of proof, and nothing further?

    Such misapplied liability should be declared invalid by the highest authority of every branch of our government, at the Federal level and in every state. Seriously.

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    marshaul wrote:
    In my opinion, the self-defense court precedent here in Virginia (derived from common law) achieves a good balance of interests. I can't imagine a scenario where I would feel the law unjustly prohibits me from utilizing deadly force.

    Civil immunity, on the other hand, is a must. I never understood how it became accepted precedent that a person could be liable for defending themselves against another's assault. I'd like to know the argument that got that all started. Such a conclusion is clearly inherently contradictory with the entire nature of what liability is and how it is applied. Or is it all due to the burden of proof, and nothing further?

    Such misapplied liability should be declared invalid by the highest authority of every branch of our government, at the Federal level and in every state. Seriously.
    I absolutely agree marshaul. How in the freakin' world can a man defend himself lawfully and yet be held civilly liable for anything? If anything that man should be able to sue the parents/family for allowing such to roam the streets.... Get THAT enacted into law and I dare say things will start changing.

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Ok, so we have to get a legislator to keep introducing the bill? I'll write mine if that's what to do.

    Is any legislation pending?


    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

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    Regular Member Bulldog1967's Avatar
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    We need civil immunity BADLY.

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    Bulldog1967 wrote:
    We need civil immunity BADLY.
    Maybe when King Kaine gives up his part time job, we can go to work on our list of needs. Wouldn't hurt to be well prepared with sponsors though.

    Indeed this should be high on the list.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member ChinChin's Avatar
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    What (or whom) would be the determining factor in civil immunity? I would assume that should the DA decline to criminaly pursue the matter to trial; that civil immunity would then be "active?"

    Somebody help me understand how that works?
    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Basically civil immunity says that you cannot be sued if the shooting was determined (by Commonwealth Attorney, Grand Jury or trial) to have been either justified or excusable.

    In the best of worlds that extends to merely wounding the BG as well as covering killing the BG.

    Hope this simple answer covers it for you.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    'Splains it to me pretty good Skid, thank you!
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    mobeewan wrote:
    Cooley died from a gunshot wound to the back
    Hear's hoping they don't call it murder because the guy was shot in the back. Personally I think all criminals, who have no honor, deserve to be shot in the back -- but the commonwealth's attorney may not see it that way.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    Basically civil immunity says that you cannot be sued if the shooting was determined (by Commonwealth Attorney, Grand Jury or trial) to have been either justified or excusable.

    In the best of worlds that extends to merely wounding the BG as well as covering killing the BG.

    Hope this simple answer covers it for you.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    A thought worth remembering come the next GA session.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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