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Thread: CC library restrictions

  1. #1
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    I just attended a function at the Clark County Library on Flamingo Rd. At the theater entrance, there were two paper signs posted. One read:

    No concealedfirearms are permitted. Violators will be prosecuted.

    The other said: No firearms allowed, including concealed firearms. Violators will be prosecuted.



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    Were you OC'ing? (If not, why not!)

    Happy to meet you at a library and go read a magazine or something. I'll leave my ID in the car.

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    By the way, "Violators will be Prosecuted" I believe refers to NRS 202.3673 (concealed weapons only), which is a misdemeanor. Unless it's NRS 202.350, prohibiting concealed carry by non-permit holders, a felony.

    There is, as you know, no law against carrying openly. I'm not sure what you'd be prosecuted for? Trespassing? Can you be trespassed from a public library?

    Edited: Oops


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    Violating 202.350 by carrying a concealed firearm without a permit is a class C felony the first time.

    http://leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-202.html#NRS202Sec350

    NRS 202.350 Manufacture, importation, possession or use of dangerous weapon or silencer; carrying concealed weapon without permit; penalties; issuance of permit to carry concealed weapon; exceptions.
    1. Except as otherwise provided in this section and NRS 202.355 and 202.3653 to 202.369, inclusive, a person within this State shall not:
    (a) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend or possess any knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a switchblade knife, blackjack, slungshot, billy, sand-club, sandbag or metal knuckles;
    (b) Manufacture or cause to be manufactured, or import into the State, or keep, offer or expose for sale, or give, lend, possess or use a machine gun or a silencer, unless authorized by federal law;
    (c) With the intent to inflict harm upon the person of another, possess or use a nunchaku or trefoil; or
    (d) Carry concealed upon his person any:
    (1) Explosive substance, other than ammunition or any components thereof;
    (2) Dirk, dagger or machete;
    (3) Pistol, revolver or other firearm, or other dangerous or deadly weapon; or
    (4) Knife which is made an integral part of a belt buckle.
    2. Except as otherwise provided in NRS 202.275 and 212.185, a person who violates any of the provisions of:
    (a) Paragraph (a) or (c) or subparagraph (2) or (4) of paragraph (d) of subsection 1 is guilty:
    (1) For the first offense, of a gross misdemeanor.
    (2) For any subsequent offense, of a category D felony and shall be punished as provided in NRS 193.130.
    (b) Paragraph (b) or subparagraph (1) or (3) of paragraph (d) of subsection 1 is guilty of a category C felony and shall be punished as provided in NRS 193.130.

    202.3673 does not restrict open carry. Also, if preemption laws apply, local government organizations cannot regulate firearms.

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    I'd use amazon.com then

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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    202.3673 does not restrict open carry. Also, if preemption laws apply, local government organizations cannot regulate firearms.
    Or can they? Does NRS 202.3673 specifically authorize "public buildings" to place signs restricting concealed carry?

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    I guess it could go either way. NRS 202.3673(3):
    (b) A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.
    This does not authorize them to restrict it, only restricts persons from carrying if a sign is so posted. With grandfathered status until SB92, the signs had weight if they were in place prior to June 1989. With preemption, the prohibition is meaningless and voided.

    However, even with the prohibition being voided, the signs are still in place. It's a strong argument for OC while still leaving doubt as to CC in my mind.

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    I was meaning that they cannot hold you criminally liable for open carry if preemption applied.

    The preemption laws would allow them to post a 202.3673 warning if it was a specific statue authorizing them. I never really thought about the wording that you brought up, and whether it was sufficient.

    Since the law prohibits us from carrying concealed with the sign posted I suppose we would still be breaking it though even if the sign was posted illegitimately.

    1. Except as otherwise provided by specific statute, the Legislature reserves for itself such rights and powers as are necessary to regulate the transfer, sale, purchase, possession, ownership, transportation, registration and licensing of firearms and ammunition in Nevada, and no ... may infringe upon those rights and powers. As used in this subsection, “firearm” means any weapon from which a projectile is discharged by means of an explosive, spring, gas, air or other force.

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    No, I wasn't OCng by choice. I'm a bit confused. Is the public library a public/government building? In previous threads there have been those that have OCd at the DMV. Is that a public/government building? If we can OC at the DMV, and there status is similar, shouldn't we be able to OC without the threat of prosecution at the library?

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    Yes, OC has always been OK. We were debating whether the sign restricting CC was still legal under preemption.


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    So it seems to me that some kind of communication to the library district is needed. It'll be interesting to hear their justification.

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    For the time being, assume they're permitted to deny the right to carry concealed, I think the best course of action is simply to OC there.

    Since I learned to use Google, I haven't visited a library, except maybe once when I was out of state and the Iphone didn't exist yet, when I visited a public library to .... use Google

    But I'm happy to go visit one and read a magazine or something.

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    It's not the No CC sign that interests me. It's the No OC sign that I want to inquire about.

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    Oops, I meant the sign that referred to all firearms being prohibited.

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    Notwithstanding the CC prohibition, that IMHO needs to be eliminated, the topic of how confusing and intentionally misleading the sign is has been discussed on this forum a couple times.

    Like DMV, the sign, referencing NRS 202.3673, states NO FIREARMS. The cited code applies only to concealed weapons. The general public probably assumes that to mean all firearms, and we believe the sign is intentionally misleading for this purpose. The code only applies to concealed weapons. It makes it illegal to enter the building with a concealed weapon, whether you have a permit or not. However, as the state has not authorized them to prohibit possession of firearms, they are not permitted from restricting the open carry of firearms.

    Aside from the unconstitutional restriction, I don't entirely blame the management of the public building for the misleading text on the sign. The text of NRS 202.3673(3)(c):

    (b) A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.
    Emphasis added

    In order to ensure compliance with state law, the sign probably incorporates the wording verbatim.

    I do find it interesting that one of the exceptions in subsection 4 is exception (d):

    (do not prohibit) A permittee from carrying a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of the public building if the permittee has received written permission from the person in control of the public building to carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of the public building.
    Who is in control? In a library, is it the librarian? That's a lot of power for a librarian to wield - your constitutional rights are waived, yours are not.

    Also, since Nevada is a SHALL ISSUE state, is written permission even allowed to be denied for reasons other than what would normally disqualify a CCW applicant?

    Tim

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    Here is a email from the folks at the lib. I use the one at Cheyenne and rainbow area. They do not have signs at all public doors as required by law. So I still CC.

    Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 2:55 PM


    Hello Mr. xxxx,

    Thank you for writing.

    All libraries are have notices posted that all firearms, concealed or
    otherwise, are prohibited in the library.

    Thank you for checking.

    Susan Williams
    Virtual Reference
    Virtual Library
    Las Vegas Clark County Library District
    http://www.lvccld.org
    (702) 734-7323 (main number)

    ________________________________

    From: stevexxxx
    Sent: Fri 10/17/2008 1:24 PM
    To: Ask
    Subject: Conceal firearm policy


    What is the policy on citizens lawful conceal carry and open carry of firearms
    in the Clark county library system?

    Thank You

    Stevexxxxxx
    __________________________________________________



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