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Thread: Open carry in Pistol Free Zones

  1. #1
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    In several threads I have seen statements that OC is permitted for CPL holders in Pistol Free Zones. As I understand it, ONLY uniformed Police Officers or Officers of the Courts are permitted to carry in a Pistol Free Zone and they must be on duty, in uniform, and carrying the pistol in a visible holster. Bascially, if your not a Cop in uniform AND on duty, pistol free zones are just that, even for Police officers in plain clothes on their own time. Those who posess a CPL and who violate this provision are subject to the following penalties.

    • First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months
    • Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked
    • Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked
    BTW, the above was a cut and paste from the following MSP site.

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html

    Bottomline, nobody except uniformed cops are permitted to carry in a Pistol Free Zone. So, until the law changes, anyone with a CPL should make sure they have an empty holster when in any of these zones.

    Which means that they are, in reality, enterprize zones for criminals because they don't care a bit about the law. Frankly, I think that it would be more useful to the public interest to devote time to getting the laws changed so that CPL holders can carry in some of these areas such as hospitals instead of hosting OC picnics.

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    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    With all do respect Scooter, have you read the info section at all?


    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html

    6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc. Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute. “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.” Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441 “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District" ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.

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    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    fatboycykes is correct. Please read and re-read the information regarding open carry and OC in pistol free zones. Hopefully this will clear up any doubts or questions that you have.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

    Note the part in quotes above!! I took that from FatBoyCykes post ... That is where we legally have the right to carry in Pistol free zones OC

    Not that we shouldn't already have the right anyway...but that is where the law says so!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Scooter123 wrote:
    In several threads I have seen statements that OC is permitted for CPL holders in Pistol Free Zones. As I understand it, ONLY uniformed Police Officers or Officers of the Courts are permitted to carry in a Pistol Free Zone and they must be on duty, in uniform, and carrying the pistol in a visible holster. Bascially, if your not a Cop in uniform AND on duty, pistol free zones are just that, even for Police officers in plain clothes on their own time. Those who posess a CPL and who violate this provision are subject to the following penalties.

    • First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months
    • Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked
    • Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked
    BTW, the above was a cut and paste from the following MSP site.

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html

    Bottomline, nobody except uniformed cops are permitted to carry in a Pistol Free Zone. So, until the law changes, anyone with a CPL should make sure they have an empty holster when in any of these zones.

    Which means that they are, in reality, enterprize zones for criminals because they don't care a bit about the law. Frankly, I think that it would be more useful to the public interest to devote time to getting the laws changed so that CPL holders can carry in some of these areas such as hospitals instead of hosting OC picnics.
    Scooter, long time no post. You are wrong again!
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I believe its this section that is causing the confusion:

    A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:

    (from http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0947--,00.html)
    While the top section states "concealed" the bottom portion does not specify.

    Also "CCW permit" is used multiple times on the same page when Michigan has no CCW permit. I think the webmaster should get a few emails on the typos and misinformation.

  7. #7
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
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    Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
    I don't think that was anybody's intention, I know it was not mine. I didn't get the feeling from any of the posts that people were attacking anyone. Just correcting a mistake.



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    And insufficient respect was shown where?springerdave.

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    Allow me to correct your post. Using your link, the information that you were incapable of reading is right there. I put the word concealed in bold so you will have an easier time reading it.

    If you can't read something, then we can't help you.


    Pistol Free Areas



    Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:




    1. Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian

    2. Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.

    3. Sports arena or stadium

    4. A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

    5. Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons

    6. An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

    7. A hospital

    8. A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university

    9. ACasino


    "Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above in 1 through 8.



    A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:



    • First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months
    • Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked
    • Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked


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    malignity wrote:
    Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
    Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

    He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.

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    dougwg wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
    Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

    He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.
    What Doug says.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Here is where I have a problem.

    This is how the law is worded for PA 381 of 2000.

    Sec. 5o. (1) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    Which would imply that Open Carry in these zones is permitted.

    However, as I understand it, the Pistol Free Zones were implemented under PA 328 of 1931 and the 2000 ammendment mearly "tweaked" some of the provision of the older law which is the Michigan Penal Code. PA 381 of 1931 states the following when setting the Pistol Free Zones.

    Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    However, subsection 2 goes on to provide the following exceptions.

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    So, an obvious conclusion would be that a CPL permit holder can use Open Carry when visiting a Pistol Free Zone. However, I have been unable to find an AG Opinion that supports that and there is wording in one AG Opinion that states the opposite in the footnotes.

    A person with a license to carry a concealed pistol who carries a pistol on premises protected under section 5o(1)(a)-(h) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act is subject to the penalties in section 5o(3)(a)-(c) of the Act. These penalties include fines, license suspension or revocation, and for third time offenders, up to four years imprisonment.

    Here is a link to the particular opinion.

    http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10173.htm

    That footnote is probably a typo, however it's contained a within a Michigan AG Opinion and would probably be used against any CPL permit holder who attempted to OC into a hospital or school. In addition this notice is currently posted on the MSP website.

    A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:



    • First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months
    • Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked
    • Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked
    Which is where I got my initial impression that Pistol Free Zones were just that, Pistol Free no matter what the means of carry. After doing a lot of poking around, I have come to the conclusion that it may be legal to OC in a Pistol Free Zone but it's not a good idea to test those waters unless you hit the Megamillions jackpot and can afford the years in court it will cost.

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    You are making it way too complicated. Section 5o deals with concealed pistols only. Other firearms or unconcealed pistols are not applicable.

    Problem solved.

    The general firearm prohibition 234d deals with ALL FIREARMS carried in any manner; HOWEVER, having a CPL or a license from any other state exempts you from the prohibition entirely.

    I fail to see where the confusion is.

    You don't need an AG opinion to say it's ok just as you don't need an AG opinion to go eat Pizza on Thursday night at 9PM.

  15. #15
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    dougwg wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
    Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

    He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.
    Ah, I was hoping people would have grown up on adult forums. Didn't realize he was a troll. Flame away.


    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  16. #16
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Scooter123 wrote:
    So, an obvious conclusion would be that a CPL permit holder can use Open Carry when visiting a Pistol Free Zone.
    Not only is it obvious, but it is explicitly stated in the very AG opinion you link to: "any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute".


    That footnote is probably a typo, however it's contained a within a Michigan AG Opinion and would probably be used against any CPL permit holder who attempted to OC into a hospital or school. .


    Yes, the footnote is merely incomplete. If you go up to the opinion passage it is a footnote to, the passage is complete where the footnote is not. I've never heard of a footnote being used legally against a defendant. If you know of a case, cite to it. I suppose it is never out of the realm of possibilities that a prosecutor would use an incompletely worded footnote against a defendant, but I would downgrade your "probably" to"unlikely to the point of being statistically non-existent".



    In addition this notice is currently posted on the MSP website. . . .Which is where I got my initial impression that Pistol Free Zones were just that, Pistol Free no matter what the means of carry.


    The law and the AG opinion are complete: "any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute". The MSP website passage you indicate, like the footnote, is incomplete. Your initial impression is in error. Time for you to move forward from your initial impression to a fully educated understanding. Time for you to evolve.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I thought I recognized the smell:celebrate
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    malignity wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
    Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

    He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.
    Ah, I was hoping people would have grown up on adult forums. Didn't realize he was a troll. Flame away.

    No problem....some times them trolls can besneaky.

  19. #19
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    malignity wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
    Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

    He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.

    Ah, I was hoping people would have grown up on adult forums. Didn't realize he was a troll. Flame away.
    There is a simple reason why I don't post here often, most of the responders seem to be intent on providing sound reasons why Gun Control is needed. Think about that for just a moment and then think on whose side your really working for, the Anti's or the Pro Gun lobby.
    Yeah, I would like to use OC, it's far more comfortable than wearing a pistol IWB. However, I happen to believe that in the end it will make too many people uncomfortable and those people VOTE. In addition, you need to consider who is currently in office and also consider the most recent nomination for the Supreme Court. The plain truth is that we are all dependent on how the Supreme Courtinterprets the Second Ammendment and the Court will shift toward the Anti's in the next few years. I think it's a good time to maintain a low profile and write letters to our representative. With the economy in the state it's in, crime statistics will provide plenty of evidence for the public's need to be armed. It is not a good time to seek public and media attention where the person being interviewed does nothing but chest thump about 2A.
    So, yeah, go ahead and call me a troll. Just remember this Troll votes and this Troll knows how to contact his State Representative. In addition this Troll is nearly to the point of asking his State Representative to initiate a Law that would require that OC require the posession of a CPL. Because the welcome that I have recieved here is convincing me that there are many people who are just too immature to be allowed to carry a weapon.
    So, go ahead and flame away. However, you really should think about the effect of your attack dog mentality towards anyone who dieagrees with you.

  20. #20
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Scooter the only gun control I have seen advocated on here is a firm grip on the weapon!! And a good holster!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  21. #21
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    Scooter, I think you should probably look into moving into a country that wasn't founded on individual freedoms.. you would be much happier.

  22. #22
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Scooter believes in "common sense gun legislation" :?

    That is the problem we have with you Scooter.

    They have taken away ENOUGH of our rights, now we want them back!

  23. #23
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    I like the part where he's going to advocate for more gun controls based on how he was treated on an internet web forum. Maybe you're right there is a lot of immaturity on these boards....

  24. #24
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    Scooter123 wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    dougwg wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
    Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

    He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.

    Ah, I was hoping people would have grown up on adult forums. Didn't realize he was a troll. Flame away.
    There is a simple reason why I don't post here often, most of the responders seem to be intent on providing sound reasons why Gun Control is needed.* Think about that for just a moment and then think on whose side your really working for, the Anti's or the Pro Gun lobby.

    Yeah, I would like to use OC, it's far more comfortable than wearing a pistol IWB.* However, I happen to believe that in the end it will make too many people uncomfortable and those people VOTE.* In addition, you need to consider who is currently in office and also consider the most recent nomination for the Supreme Court.* The plain truth is that we are all dependent on how the Supreme Court*interprets the Second Ammendment and the Court will shift toward the Anti's in the next few years.* I think it's a good time to maintain a low profile and write letters to our representative.* With the economy in the state it's in, crime statistics will provide plenty of evidence for the public's need to be armed.* It is not a good time to seek public and media attention where the person being interviewed does nothing but chest thump about 2A.

    So, yeah, go ahead and call me a troll.* Just remember this Troll votes and this Troll knows how to contact his State Representative.* In addition this Troll is nearly to the point of asking his State Representative to initiate a Law that would require that OC require the posession of a CPL.* Because the welcome that I have recieved here is convincing me that there are many people who are just too immature to be allowed to carry a weapon.

    So, go ahead and flame away.* However, you really should think about the effect of your attack dog mentality towards anyone who dieagrees with you.
    [/quote]

    If you don't exercise the right you have, you may as well not have it. If you're too scared to exercise the right you have, you may as well not have it.

    It's your right. Use it or lose it.

    (PS: fixed your little formatting issue so now your post is readable.)

  25. #25
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Scooter123 wrote:
    Just remember this Troll votes and this Troll knows how to contact his State Representative.
    I'm shaking with fear. Up to now, the gun control crowd has been ineffective and losing when it comes to taking away liberty.YOU are going to change all that. That's it, I might as well chuck my OC holster and trade in my gun for a smaller, concealable one.

    Go away and vote. Go away and contact your rep. Just go away. :celebrate
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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