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Open carry in Pistol Free Zones

Scooter123

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Sep 3, 2008
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Location
Macomb, Michigan, USA
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In several threads I have seen statements that OC is permitted for CPL holders in Pistol Free Zones. As I understand it, ONLY uniformed Police Officers or Officers of the Courts are permitted to carry in a Pistol Free Zone and they must be on duty, in uniform, and carrying the pistol in a visible holster. Bascially, if your not a Cop in uniform AND on duty, pistol free zones are just that, even for Police officers in plain clothes on their own time. Those who posess a CPL and who violate this provision are subject to the following penalties.

  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
BTW, the above was a cut and paste from the following MSP site.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html

Bottomline, nobody except uniformed cops are permitted to carry in a Pistol Free Zone. So, until the law changes, anyone with a CPL should make sure they have an empty holster when in any of these zones.

Which means that they are, in reality, enterprize zones for criminals because they don't care a bit about the law. Frankly, I think that it would be more useful to the public interest to devote time to getting the laws changed so that CPL holders can carry in some of these areas such as hospitals instead of hosting OC picnics.
 

FatboyCykes

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Warren, Michigan, USA
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With all do respect Scooter, have you read the info section at all?


http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html

6) An AG opinion, the MSP and Senator Prusi stated that a person with a CPL can carry a firearm openly in the exempted areas listed in MCL 750.234d. For example, with permission from the owner you can openly carry a handgun in a bar, sports arena, etc. Opinion No. 7097 January 11, 2002… A person licensed by this state… to carry a concealed weapon….By its express terms, section 234d prohibits certain persons from carrying a firearm in the enumerated places but explicitly exempts from its prohibition “[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute. “Your analysis is correct. Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.” Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441 “…My office has contacted the Michigan State Police legislative liaison and has received some answers to share with you. According to the liaison, it is legal to openly carry a firearm in a "Pistol Free Zone" if you are a licensed CPL holder. I was advised that your information was correct that MCL 28.425o and MCL 750-234d permit this activity. I was informed that there was no other additional relevant laws regarding this matter…” Michael A Prusi, State Senator 38th District" ADVISORY NOTE: Before carrying a handgun we recommend that you become familiar with all state and federal laws in regards to firearm laws and the use of deadly force. Taking a self defense/firearm course is recommended. Michigan has a self defense act PA No. 309 July 18, 2006 that states you do not have to retreat from a threat, but you must meet the legal requirements before you engage in the use of deadly force.
 

autosurgeon

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Lawrence, Michigan, United States
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“[a] person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.” Thus, any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute.

Note the part in quotes above!! I took that from FatBoyCykes post ... That is where we legally have the right to carry in Pistol free zones OC

Not that we shouldn't already have the right anyway...but that is where the law says so!
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
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Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
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Scooter123 wrote:
In several threads I have seen statements that OC is permitted for CPL holders in Pistol Free Zones. As I understand it, ONLY uniformed Police Officers or Officers of the Courts are permitted to carry in a Pistol Free Zone and they must be on duty, in uniform, and carrying the pistol in a visible holster. Bascially, if your not a Cop in uniform AND on duty, pistol free zones are just that, even for Police officers in plain clothes on their own time. Those who posess a CPL and who violate this provision are subject to the following penalties.

  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
BTW, the above was a cut and paste from the following MSP site.

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html

Bottomline, nobody except uniformed cops are permitted to carry in a Pistol Free Zone. So, until the law changes, anyone with a CPL should make sure they have an empty holster when in any of these zones.

Which means that they are, in reality, enterprize zones for criminals because they don't care a bit about the law. Frankly, I think that it would be more useful to the public interest to devote time to getting the laws changed so that CPL holders can carry in some of these areas such as hospitals instead of hosting OC picnics.
Scooter, long time no post. You are wrong again!
 

maahes

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
125
Location
Jackson, Michigan, USA
imported post

I believe its this section that is causing the confusion:

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]
A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:
[/font]
(from http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html)
While the top section states "concealed" the bottom portion does not specify.

Also "CCW permit" is used multiple times on the same page when Michigan has no CCW permit. I think the webmaster should get a few emails on the typos and misinformation.
 

malignity

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Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
1,101
Location
Warren, Michigan, USA
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Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
 

Generaldet

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Jul 28, 2008
Messages
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President, CLSD, Inc., Oxford, Michigan, USA
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malignity wrote:
Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?
I don't think that was anybody's intention, I know it was not mine. I didn't get the feeling from any of the posts that people were attacking anyone. Just correcting a mistake.
 

Jared

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2006
Messages
892
Location
Michigan, USA
imported post

Allow me to correct your post. Using your link, the information that you were incapable of reading is right there. I put the word concealed in bold so you will have an easier time reading it.

If you can't read something, then we can't help you.

[align=left]
[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]Pistol Free Areas[/font]
[/align]

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"][size=-1]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol on the following premises:[/font]




  1. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Schools or school property but may carry while in a vehicle on school property while dropping off or picking up if a parent or legal guardian
    [/font]

  2. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Public or private day care center, public or private child caring agency, or public or private child placing agency.
    [/font]

  3. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Sports arena or stadium
    [/font]

  4. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises
    [/font]

  5. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official allows concealed weapons
    [/font]

  6. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more
    [/font]

  7. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A hospital
    [/font]

  8. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
    [/font]

  9. [font="Arial, Helvetica"]ACasino

    [/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica"]"Premises" does not include the parking areas of the places listed above in 1 through 8.

[/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:[/font]



  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
[/size]
[/font]
 

dougwg

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Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
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Location
MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
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malignity wrote:
Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?

Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
imported post

dougwg wrote:
malignity wrote:
Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?

Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.
What Doug says.
 

Scooter123

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
63
Location
Macomb, Michigan, USA
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Here is where I have a problem.

This is how the law is worded for PA 381 of 2000.

Sec. 5o. (1) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

Which would imply that Open Carry in these zones is permitted.

However, as I understand it, the Pistol Free Zones were implemented under PA 328 of 1931 and the 2000 ammendment mearly "tweaked" some of the provision of the older law which is the Michigan Penal Code. PA 381 of 1931 states the following when setting the Pistol Free Zones.

Sec. 234d (1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

However, subsection 2 goes on to provide the following exceptions.

(a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

(b) A peace officer.

(c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

(d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

So, an obvious conclusion would be that a CPL permit holder can use Open Carry when visiting a Pistol Free Zone. However, I have been unable to find an AG Opinion that supports that and there is wording in one AG Opinion that states the opposite in the footnotes.

A person with a license to carry a concealed pistol who carries a pistol on premises protected under section 5o(1)(a)-(h) of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act is subject to the penalties in section 5o(3)(a)-(c) of the Act. These penalties include fines, license suspension or revocation, and for third time offenders, up to four years imprisonment.

Here is a link to the particular opinion.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/2000s/op10173.htm

That footnote is probably a typo, however it's contained a within a Michigan AG Opinion and would probably be used against any CPL permit holder who attempted to OC into a hospital or school. In addition this notice is currently posted on the MSP website.

[font="Arial, Helvetica"]A pistol is subject to immediate seizure if the CCW permit holder is carrying a pistol in a "pistol free" area. The following penalties may also be imposed:[/font]



  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]First offense: State Civil Infraction, $500 fine, CCW permit suspended 6 months[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Second offense: 90-day misdemeanor, $1000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
  • [font="Arial, Helvetica"]Third and subsequent offenses: 4-year felony, $5000 fine, CCW permit revoked[/font]
Which is where I got my initial impression that Pistol Free Zones were just that, Pistol Free no matter what the means of carry. After doing a lot of poking around, I have come to the conclusion that it may be legal to OC in a Pistol Free Zone but it's not a good idea to test those waters unless you hit the Megamillions jackpot and can afford the years in court it will cost.
 

Jared

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Messages
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Michigan, USA
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You are making it way too complicated. Section 5o deals with concealed pistols only. Other firearms or unconcealed pistols are not applicable.

Problem solved.

The general firearm prohibition 234d deals with ALL FIREARMS carried in any manner; HOWEVER, having a CPL or a license from any other state exempts you from the prohibition entirely.

I fail to see where the confusion is.

You don't need an AG opinion to say it's ok just as you don't need an AG opinion to go eat Pizza on Thursday night at 9PM.
 

malignity

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Warren, Michigan, USA
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dougwg wrote:
malignity wrote:
Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?

Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.

Ah, I was hoping people would have grown up on adult forums. Didn't realize he was a troll. Flame away.
 

DanM

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Jul 11, 2008
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West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
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Scooter123 wrote:
So, an obvious conclusion would be that a CPL permit holder can use Open Carry when visiting a Pistol Free Zone.
Not only is it obvious, but it is explicitly stated in the very AG opinion you link to: "any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute".


That footnote is probably a typo, however it's contained a within a Michigan AG Opinion and would probably be used against any CPL permit holder who attempted to OC into a hospital or school. .

Yes, the footnote is merely incomplete. If you go up to the opinion passage it is a footnote to, the passage is complete where the footnote is not. I've never heard of a footnote being used legally against a defendant. If you know of a case, cite to it. I suppose it is never out of the realm of possibilities that a prosecutor would use an incompletely worded footnote against a defendant, but I would downgrade your "probably" to"unlikely to the point of being statistically non-existent".



In addition this notice is currently posted on the MSP website. . . .Which is where I got my initial impression that Pistol Free Zones were just that, Pistol Free no matter what the means of carry.

The law and the AG opinion are complete: "any person licensed to carry a concealed pistol, including a private investigator, is exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 234d of the Penal Code and may therefore possess firearms while on the types of premises listed in that statute". The MSP website passage you indicate, like the footnote, is incomplete. Your initial impression is in error. Time for you to move forward from your initial impression to a fully educated understanding. Time for you to evolve.
 

dougwg

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malignity wrote:
dougwg wrote:
malignity wrote:
Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?

Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.

Ah, I was hoping people would have grown up on adult forums. Didn't realize he was a troll. Flame away.
No problem....some times them trolls can besneaky.:uhoh:
 

Scooter123

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Messages
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Location
Macomb, Michigan, USA
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malignity wrote:
dougwg wrote:
malignity wrote:
Guys, no offense, but no need to jump on someone for trying to get their facts straight. We want to inform, not draw people away from the OC website/forums. This isn't the first time this has happened, but please, if you're going to correct someone, show a bit more respect?

Look at scooters join date.... Every post he makes is BS and ANTI-OC

He's a troll, don't feed the trolls.
Ah, I was hoping people would have grown up on adult forums. Didn't realize he was a troll. Flame away.
There is a simple reason why I don't post here often, most of the responders seem to be intent on providing sound reasons why Gun Control is needed. Think about that for just a moment and then think on whose side your really working for, the Anti's or the Pro Gun lobby.
Yeah, I would like to use OC, it's far more comfortable than wearing a pistol IWB. However, I happen to believe that in the end it will make too many people uncomfortable and those people VOTE. In addition, you need to consider who is currently in office and also consider the most recent nomination for the Supreme Court. The plain truth is that we are all dependent on how the Supreme Courtinterprets the Second Ammendment and the Court will shift toward the Anti's in the next few years. I think it's a good time to maintain a low profile and write letters to our representative. With the economy in the state it's in, crime statistics will provide plenty of evidence for the public's need to be armed. It is not a good time to seek public and media attention where the person being interviewed does nothing but chest thump about 2A.
So, yeah, go ahead and call me a troll. Just remember this Troll votes and this Troll knows how to contact his State Representative. In addition this Troll is nearly to the point of asking his State Representative to initiate a Law that would require that OC require the posession of a CPL. Because the welcome that I have recieved here is convincing me that there are many people who are just too immature to be allowed to carry a weapon.
So, go ahead and flame away. However, you really should think about the effect of your attack dog mentality towards anyone who dieagrees with you.
 
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