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What is the exact definition of a building

W

Woodchuck

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State Statute says


941.235 Carrying firearm in public building. (1) Any
person who goes armed with a firearm in any building owned or
leased by the state or any political subdivision of the state is guilty
of a Class A misdemeanor.




Merriam Webster Online has this

Main Entry: build·ing
Pronunciation: \ˈbil-diŋ\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : a usually roofed and walled structure built for permanent use (as for a dwelling)
2 : the art or business of assembling materials into a structure


Are the roofed open structures at parks legal to carry in?

Barring any ordinance from the local township banning guns in the park of course.
 
bnhcomputing

bnhcomputing

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There are 632 mentions of "building" in the online Wisconsin Statutes, but it doesn't look like the actually define building.

The issue is, reading the definition stated, what is a wall?

Using "Merriam Webster Online," one definition is:
one of the sides of a room or building connecting floor and ceiling or foundation and roof.
Click to expand...

So wall is used to define building, and building is used to define wall, almost as convoluted as Wisconsin law.

I am not a lawyer, but I would say it is generally held that those "buildings" are buildings, as a private citizenwould need to get a building permit to construct one and thus they are government buildings that should not be entered while armed unless, of course, you have permission.
 
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smithman

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J.Gleason wrote:
I would think those open shelters would be fine but stay away from the public bathrooms.
Click to expand...
Until a legal opinion is submitted by the DOJ on this or you get a definitive answer from a district attorney, stay away from open government owned shelters. For sure the bathroom is a no-no. But the building may or may not be; it has not been tested yet in court or other places to my knowledge. If it is not clear, then chances are an aggressive DA can prove one way or another in the benefit the state.
 
J

J.Gleason

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bnh:

I didn't get to your picnic but I am wondering, didn't you use a park? and if so did you have a shelter in your area? Because if you reserved an area in the park and you notified the city or county what your event was about and they approved your reservation wouldn't that clear the way for you to use the shelter?
 
bnhcomputing

bnhcomputing

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Yes, the event took place at a town park. I did not inform the government of my intentions and did not seek government permission, so no we didn't use the building, it was closed and locked. Rather, I sought and got permission to put up a tent in the park. The tent, paid for by me, is private and not a building.

It ismy understanding that, the government building statute is intended for individual enforcement. Meaning, when I teach Hunter Ed, I have permission, not the students. If my interpretation is correct, then each individual who attended would have to get specific permission (individual permission).

I arrive at this conclusion because Article 1, Section 25 is an individual right, not collective, and the firearms statutesappear to apply toindividuals as well.
 
J

J.Gleason

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Well then bring your own shelter wouldn't be a bad idea.
In my town If I reserved the area in the park I can use the shelter. That is not to say that every town is that way.
 
bnhcomputing

bnhcomputing

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J.Gleason wrote:
Well then bring your own shelter wouldn't be a bad idea.
In my town If I reserved the area in the park I can use the shelter. That is not to say that every town is that way.
Click to expand...


That is correct, worked the same here, I actually had to reserve the building, and then not use it, go figure.
 
Decoligny

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bnhcomputing wrote:
There are 632 mentions of "building" in the online Wisconsin Statutes, but it doesn't look like the actually define building.

The issue is, reading the definition stated, what is a wall?

Using "Merriam Webster Online," one definition is:
one of the sides of a room or building connecting floor and ceiling or foundation and roof.
Click to expand...

So wall is used to define building, and building is used to define wall, almost as convoluted as Wisconsin law.

I am not a lawyer, but I would say it is generally held that those "buildings" are buildings, as a private citizenwould need to get a building permit to construct one and thus they are government buildings that should not be entered while armed unless, of course, you have permission.
Click to expand...


A "building permit" is not a permit to put up a building, it is a permit to build something. You may need to get a buidling permit in order to pour a concrete patio, or to build a wooden deck in your backyard. These two things while they are permanent structures that have been "built", they are not in and of themselves buildings.

Thus your arguement that if a private citizen would need to get a building permit to construct one kind of falls apart.

Not saying the shelter is or isn't a building, just commenting on the logic.
 
Shotgun

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I don't believe there's a statutory definition of "a building." However I spent 13 years in a job with the state where we had to routinely make determinations of whether a particular construction project was classified as "building construction" or some other type of construction, e.g., heavy construction, sewer and water construction, street or highway, etc. Generally, within the construction industry, if it has a ROOF, it is a building. A school is a building, a dam is not. A bridge is not a building, but a draw bridge operator's "house" is a building. A park is not a building, but park shelters are. Obviously the statute prohibiting guns in government buildings is flawed because it is too broad. There's certainly a distinct difference in prohibiting guns in city hall, versus prohibiting guns being worn into a public rest room at a park. But the law makes no such distinction and is unreasonable.
 
Brass Magnet

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I tend to agree with Dicoligny but also won't dare make an assumption. We get taxed on a garage but we don't get taxed on carports even if they are the same size. Seems to me I read somewhere that a building must have at least 3 complete walls. I wonder if you would need to go down to the local level to get a definition of building?

I guess this is another one of those "depending on the good graces of the police and DA" type of things. I H8 that.
 
W

Woodchuck

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Brass Magnet wrote:
I guess this is another one of those "depending on the good graces of the police and DA" type of things.  I H8 that.
Click to expand...

I just got off the phone with the AG's office trying to get the definition for "concealed" and thats pretty much what he told me.
 
J

J.Gleason

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I would have to wonder if a judge would side with the DA on an issue where a law abiding citizen received a citation for having a fire arm under a shelter in the park.

What if a thunder storm came in? Would you not be allowed to seek shelter for safety?

I am hard pressed to believe anyone would cite you for using a shelter. now the bathrooms I think may be a different story. Although I do not believe this is what the statute was written for. I think the intentions were for buildings such as city hall, the court house, the post office, etc. not bathrooms in the park. What do they want you to do crap on the grass? We have to be very careful not to read to much into the statutes. In doing so we could become our own worst enemy.

Any thoughts Mike?
 
N

Nutczak

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If the building in question is not specifically designed for human occupancy, I doubt itcould be consideredan valid offense of current law under the "Government Building prohibition" clause by anyone judge that does not have an agenda.

yes it is built on Govt property, it is a building of sorts. But there is no way business could legally be conducted there.

before anyone starts asking for cites, there isn't anything to cite! But lets be reasonable here and use some common sense.A library, courthouse, or police station are a totally different item altogether.
 
R

Rick Finsta

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I've got to try to dig up the case law reference, but I know there was another State that had to clarify the "leased" language, because the whole building was a strip mall (or other office building, I can't recall), and it was found unconstitutional to ban firearms possession in the entire building, making the law only applicable to the section of the building housing the gov't. offices...

I want to say it was a south central state like OK or KS.
 
W

Woodchuck

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Talked to the AG's office today and got this all straightened out.

Basically, they weren't sure or weren't gonna tell me if the open shelters are "buildings". They said I was to contact my local police chief and ask them. If I got a unsatisfactory answer, I am to write the DOJ and the will put someone on it.



Whew, so glad that they've been so helpful. Only called them twice in my life and they were quick to get both issues resolved. Don't know what I'd do without them.:banghead:
 
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