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Thread: What Would You Have Done?

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    The other day my wife and I were running some errands and decided to stop and get gas before heading home.

    I pulled up to a pump at the gas station get out of our SUV and head inside to pay. As I was walking inside I notice two guys arguing I had noticed they arrived together so I didnt think anything of it. They also had their girlfriends with them. I go inside pay while walking back to my SUV these two guys have eachother in headlocks, then the bigger of the two guys picks the other up and slams him on the ground knocking him out. He then punches the guy twice in the face while he's out cold. I head to my SUV call 911 explaining what was going on. During this time the girlfriends are screaming and the guy picks up his friend he knocked out and puts him in his truck and leaves fast. I didn't want to intervene because my wife has a physical disability and wouldn't have been able to drive off or leave the area to get hersel out of danger.The police never arrived and I get a call about 10 minutes later from the police telling me they couldnt find the vehicle I described (partial plate I didnt have my glasses).

    Hindsight is 20/20 I was thinking to myself if I had been opencarrying if I would have been justified drawing on the attacker? What if this guy would have come at me would I have been justified shooting him?He was not armed he was wearing shorts sneakers and no shirt. This whole incident made me think about all the what if's. Was my 911 call enough?
    All the above ended with me at the range Saturday practicing to be a Sheepdog.

    Your thoughts? How would you have reacted?


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    I think you did enough and everything couldnt of turned out better..



    you didnt have to waste time filling out a whittness report and you and your wife didnt attract any unwated attention from the bad guy BUT

    i've been in a few fights with friends...im sure he didnt mean to actually knock his friend unconcious...but the extra blows were kind of unneeded.. but you never know how angry or what the fight was over in the first place...

    but im sure things worked out between the friends... but disputes like that can take a turn for the very worse so hopefully that was the end of their problems.



    as far as what i do when i whittness any kind of assualt or fight... i usually try to film it with my phone or camera at hand.... and when things seem to get a little too out of hand or one person is obviously done with their beat down... if need be i will jump in and say a few words to break up the chaos and make sure no one is beaten or kicked while they are down and helpless.



    but as far as a fight.... just let people go at it... as long as weapons arent involved.. a fist fight always ends in a few scrapes and bruises. its just always nice when good hearted people know when to break it up for the losing end.

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    Regular Member Thos.Jefferson's Avatar
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    If the guys weren't hassling you then you should've been minding your own damned business. No wonder your state is so screwed up, you people are to worried about what everybody else is doing!
    He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent which will reach to himself. -- Thomas Paine (1737--1809), Dissertation on First Principles of Government, 1795

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    To answer your questions, you wouldn't be justified in drawing on him unless he was looking like he was going to kill his friend or was charging you.

    I like eraseallhope's answer though regarding the 911 call. Seeing people go at it in fistfights can be shocking, but I can see myself being cool with just letting them have at it as long as it is fair and safe.

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    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Short answer is you could brandish in justifiable self defense or defense of another OR deadly force could be used IF you had a reasonable belief that serious bodily injury of death to yourself of anotherwas likely tooccur. Its a fine line and I stongly suggest everyone read "How to own a gun and stay out of jail" even if your guns are just kept in your safe as it addresses most known currentself defense case laws.



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    I will keep my one hand on my gun, holstered still, of course, but at a ready just in case. The other hand dialing 911, all these while stepping out of the store with my back to the door and eyes on them guys.

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    From your description, it sounds like the guy was never in serious danger. IMO you did the right thing by simply reporting what was possibly a violent crime.

    We are not obliged in any way to defend anybody. I think it is prudent to defend ourselves and our loved ones, but not random people. Often, victims of violent crime end up victims due to risky or careless behavior. Further, if they haven't taken steps to secure their own safety, then why should I do it for them?

    Using deadly force has severe consequences. To be blunt, it's probably not worth potentially ruining your life to save theirs.
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    I hadn't thought aboutthat CA Libertarian your right I'm not obliged to help. Good info guys, and I do have that book thanks Cato. KS I like the way you think. Thanks again everyone.



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    I would have dialed the police, gave what info I could without revealing my name or where I live and I would have proceeded to leave the area entirely.

    if it isn't your fight, then don't get involved--because you have no idea why they are fighting....

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    Like everyone is saying, you did the right thing. No need to involve yourself if you are not already in the conflict. Just make the call, and let the authorities do their job.

    I personally, would not draw unless I am in danger of grievous bodily harm, or I see someone about to be bludgeoned to death... but the call would have aready been made.

  11. #11
    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    Just be as good as a witness as you can if you don't believe that the assailant might actually kill the guy.

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Thos.Jefferson wrote:
    If the guys weren't hassling you then you should've been minding your own damned business. No wonder your state is so screwed up, you people are to worried about what everybody else is doing!
    IMO the problem with today's society is nobody helps anybody anymore. "Don't get involved." "Be a good witness." Those are the mantras of the current police state.

    Further, IMO, if a guy has another guy in a headlock and slams his head against the pavement, I consider that imminent thread of great bodily injury or death and it warrants lethal force to stop. The only problem with this scenario is that you don't really know who the bad guy was.


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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    MudCamper wrote:
    Thos.Jefferson wrote:
    If the guys weren't hassling you then you should've been minding your own damned business. No wonder your state is so screwed up, you people are to worried about what everybody else is doing!
    IMO the problem with today's society is nobody helps anybody anymore. "Don't get involved." "Be a good witness." Those are the mantras of the current police state.

    Further, IMO, if a guy has another guy in a headlock and slams his head against the pavement, I consider that imminent thread of great bodily injury or death and it warrants lethal force to stop. The only problem with this scenario is that you don't really know who the bad guy was.
    Which is why you just stop the on-going fight and hold the combatants until the police arrive. It doesn't matter if the guy about to get his brains busted out onto the pavement is at fault or not, nobody needs to die infight whether they started it or not or whether they deserved it or not.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    I don't believe in not helping others , I think you did all you could in the situation, but the putting the guy in the trunk thing worries me. My personality wouldn't have stopped me from trying to do something, it wouldn't have invovled my gun unless I felt my life or someone elses was in immediate danger/threat. But I am lucky here in Washington we are lawfully allowed to protect others.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Definitely doesnt sound like a time to pull a gun. You could have been charged with brandishing a weapon and had that concealed carry privilege revoked.

    Depending on the state you are in, deadly force rules are very different. In California their life has to be in clear immediate danger. Since fists arent really classified as deadly weapons yet, then not a good idea. Say you did pull it, and if the man charged at you and you shot him, you could have been charged with manslaughter or worse since YOU were the aggressor and HE was now the defender(because you never should have pulled the gun in the first place).

    Now if he was stabbing him, thats a different story. Though you did well in your reaction.

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    I honestly could not tell you what I would or would not have done -- I was not there and could not assess the situation for myself.

    I do believe (using a commanding tone) that telling them to stop would have been the minimum to do.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    I don't believe in not helping others , I think you did all you could in the situation, but the putting the guy in the trunk thing worries me. My personality wouldn't have stopped me from trying to do something, it wouldn't have invovled my gun unless I felt my life or someone elses was in immediate danger/threat. But I am lucky here in Washington we are lawfully allowed to protect others.
    That was "TRUCK" not "TRUNK". :what:



  18. #18
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Oh jeez, well that makes way more sense. I can't believe I read it like that.....lol. Thanx for the clarification.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  19. #19
    Regular Member stuckinchico's Avatar
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    Decoligny wrote:
    MudCamper wrote:
    Thos.Jefferson wrote:
    If the guys weren't hassling you then you should've been minding your own damned business. No wonder your state is so screwed up, you people are to worried about what everybody else is doing!
    IMO the problem with today's society is nobody helps anybody anymore. "Don't get involved." "Be a good witness." Those are the mantras of the current police state.

    Further, IMO, if a guy has another guy in a headlock and slams his head against the pavement, I consider that imminent thread of great bodily injury or death and it warrants lethal force to stop. The only problem with this scenario is that you don't really know who the bad guy was.
    Which is why you just stop the on-going fight and hold the combatants until the police arrive. It doesn't matter if the guy about to get his brains busted out onto the pavement is at fault or not, nobody needs to die infight whether they started it or not or whether they deserved it or not.

    For all you that refuse to intervene, I would never call you my friend. It is a human function to protect those that can not protect themselves. If a person is knocked unconsciousness that is enough to justify self defense. Suppose it was you getting knocked around, Would you want me to mind my own business??? HEll no is the correct answer. Draw hold and detain.... IF he charges you self defense use your brains i applaud you for considering your wife... however hindsight is always 20 20

  20. #20
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    Your first duty is to protect your family and yourself. If you feel that your intervention could have putyour wifeat risk, especially if you became incapacitated as the result of your intervention (which is always a possibility), then you did the right thing. IMO.

    If it were me (Monday morning quarterbacking) and I was OCing, I would have called 911at the time I became awitness to the fight.When the smaller person was thrown to the ground and became unconscious, I would have feared for that person's life and pulled my gun, not allowed thebigger person to touch him, had someone call forthe paramedics (probably would have gotten there in less than 3 minutes), kept the other person (the bigger guy) at bay until help arrived.If the bigger guy left, then so be it.However, given thesmaller guy's helpless condition and not knowing the extent of his injuries, I would have done what I could to keep the bigger guy away.

    Maybe there are some things that I could have been charged with, but I believe a jury would side with protecting the helpless. IMO.
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    For those saying they would intervene... here's the problem:

    You don't know why they're fighting, who instigated it, etc. Maybe the guy getting his face beat against the pavement was trying to rob the bigger guy. Maybe little guy pulled a weapon and the bigger guy is in fact acting in self defense! Maybe big guy doesn't know you and thinks you're an accomplice trying to continue the robbery. Maybe he fears for his life and decides to go down fighting by charging you with the knife he took off the little guy. BOOM!

    IF you hit your target, two things could happen. You stop your target, killing an innocent man who was in a fight for his life. You go to jail, get charged, lose your job, maybe your wife leaves you because she can't take the stress of the situation, maybe you beat the rap... maybe you get a few years for manslaughter. Either way your life is FUBARed. Or you don't stop your target (see next paragraph for potential fallout of failing to kill your target).

    OR you experience what most people do in SD situations - a drastic decrease in accuracy - and fail to even hit your target. He closes with you goes to work defending himself. Maybe he kills you, maybe you just spend the rest of your life dealing with debilitating injuries and pain. Maybe you just have some cool scars. But wait, what happened to the 7-10 rounds you put down range without hitting your target? Perhaps you kill a bystander (see previous paragraph for potential fallout of killing an innocent person).

    In the situation presented by the OP, I don't know enough to interject myself into the situation. My best option is to simply be a good witness. Someone less risk averse may feel it's worth the risk to save the life of a stranger.

    I think it's wrong to belittle those of us unwilling to risk our life, liberty, and happiness. The reality is that we aren't superheroes, and we have no moral or legal obligation to act like one.


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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    For those saying they would intervene... here's the problem:

    In the situation presented by the OP, I don't know enough to interject myself into the situation. My best option is to simply be a good witness. Someone less risk averse may feel it's worth the risk to save the life of a stranger.

    I think it's wrong to belittle those of us unwilling to risk our life, liberty, and happiness. The reality is that we aren't superheroes, and we have no moral or legal obligation to act like one.

    I'm not sure if I saw a post that was belittling any of the responses to not to intervene.But maybe I missed it. I certainly wasn't trying to belittle anyone. So, I apologize if I came across this way.

    The decision of whether or not to intervene is a very personal one. I'm just saying that this is what I think I would do (given the advantage of not having to make a split-second decision).

    I have not been in a bar room brawl, but I have fought competitively in judo and know that someone being body-slammed could very easily sustain life-threatening injuries if not experienced in giving and receiving such throws. The scenario was body-slammed (presumably, onto concrete), unconsciousness, a couple of more blows while unconscious, and moving an unconscious person with unknown injuries, which itself could exacerbate an injury to become a life-altering injury.

    At what point do I say enough...regardless of who was "right" and who was "wrong"? I say, for me, it's the point of unconsciousness. Boxing matches, judo matches, other martial arts matches do not allow the contest to go beyond this point. Why?

    This is the point at which thefightis so one-sided that, for me, to stand by and do nothing would be a violation of my conscience.
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    Regular Member brokenbarrel's Avatar
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    Regular Member brokenbarrel's Avatar
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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    For those saying they would intervene... here's the problem:

    In the situation presented by the OP, I don't know enough to interject myself into the situation. My best option is to simply be a good witness. Someone less risk averse may feel it's worth the risk to save the life of a stranger.

    I think it's wrong to belittle those of us unwilling to risk our life, liberty, and happiness. The reality is that we aren't superheroes, and we have no moral or legal obligation to act like one.

    I'm not sure if I saw a post that was belittling any of the responses to not to intervene.But maybe I missed it. I certainly wasn't trying to belittle anyone. So, I apologize if I came across this way.

    The decision of whether or not to intervene is a very personal one. I'm just saying that this is what I think I would do (given the advantage of not having to make a split-second decision).

    I have not been in a bar room brawl, but I have fought competitively in judo and know that someone being body-slammed could very easily sustain life-threatening injuries if not experienced in giving and receiving such throws. The scenario was body-slammed (presumably, onto concrete), unconsciousness, a couple of more blows while unconscious, and moving an unconscious person with unknown injuries, which itself could exacerbate an injury to become a life-altering injury.

    At what point do I say enough...regardless of who was "right" and who was "wrong"? I say, for me, it's the point of unconsciousness. Boxing matches, judo matches, other martial arts matches do not allow the contest to go beyond this point. Why?

    This is the point at which thefightis so one-sided that, for me, to stand by and do nothing would be a violation of my conscience.
    exactly-BG guy goes for attempt instead of murder,or GG stops threat via self defence,but once the threat has stopped you stop CALIFORNIA law,now the GG doesnt have at least a manslaughter charge

  25. #25
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    Sons of Liberty wrote:
    I'm not sure if I saw a post that was belittling any of the responses to not to intervene.But maybe I missed it. I certainly wasn't trying to belittle anyone. So, I apologize if I came across this way.

    The decision of whether or not to intervene is a very personal one. I'm just saying that this is what I think I would do (given the advantage of not having to make a split-second decision).
    No, it wasn't you. Someone voiced their disgust with people like me, who would most likely not intervene with two grown men fighting. (But if a grown man body slams an 8-yr-old girl, then it's on.)

    I agree it's a personal decision.

    I commend those willing to risk so much, and hope they never have to. If they do, I hope they legally, financially, and emotionally survive the consequences of their actions.

    I also commend those that are wise enough to realize I'm not morally obligated to share their values.
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