Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: MSP/FFL : Cannot own any handgun not given as a gift until over 21

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    I was told by a member on this board that you must be 21 to buy a pistol. I informed him that only pertained to pistols bought from an FFL. And that so long as the Permit to Purchase was in hand, there was absolutely no reason someone under 21,but over 18 could not buy a pistol from a private individual.

    He then later said that an FFL as well as an MSP phone operator told him that a pistol could be obtained by someone under 21 only if it was gifted by a parent. And that selling a pistol to anyone could leave him criminally responsible.

    If somone gets a pistol as a gift, and are not a CPL holder. They still need to acquire a permit to purchase and register there pistol. And if it's sold to somone with a permit to purchase there is no responsiblity on the behalf of the seller.

    Am I correct in my logic, that why would i be able to own and buy one from individuals, if individuals are held liable? Or : How can i get a permit to purchase a pistol i cannot own?

    Edit: I bought my First pistol at 19. Permit to purchase received and and returned.


  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    BreakingTheMold wrote:
    I was told by a member on this board that you must be 21 to buy a pistol. I informed him that only pertained to pistols bought from an FFL. And that so long as the Permit to Purchase was in hand, there was absolutely no reason someone under 21,but over 18 could not buy a pistol from a private individual.

    He then later said that an FFL as well as an MSP phone operator told him that a pistol could be obtained by someone under 21 only if it was gifted by a parent. And that selling a pistol to anyone could leave him criminally responsible.

    If somone gets a pistol as a gift, and are not a CPL holder. They still need to acquire a permit to purchase and register there pistol. And if it's sold to somone with a permit to purchase there is no responsiblity on the behalf of the seller.

    Am I correct in my logic, that why would i be able to own and buy one from individuals, if individuals are held liable? Or : How can i get a permit to purchase a pistol i cannot own?
    Simply put, there's not a single statute in Michigan law that backs up his completely false statement.

    No, you cannot buy from an FFL. You can buy from an individual though. Just go to the local PD, get your permit to purchase, and buy a gun at a gun show (from any non-FFL). That's that.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    That's what i was almost sure of. Thanks for your input

  4. #4
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Here is what the law specifically DOES say. I have highlighted the pertinent info in red.

    FIREARMS (EXCERPT)
    Act 372 of 1927


    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.
    Sec. 2.
    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    (2) A person who brings a pistol into this state who is on leave from active duty with the armed forces of the United States or who has been discharged from active duty with the armed forces of the United States shall obtain a license for the pistol within 30 days after his or her arrival in this state.
    (3) The commissioner or chief of police of a city, township, or village police department that issues licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols, or his or her duly authorized deputy, or the sheriff or his or her duly authorized deputy, in the parts of a county not included within a city, township, or village having an organized police department, in discharging the duty to issue licenses shall with due speed and diligence issue licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols to qualified applicants residing within the city, village, township, or county, as applicable unless he or she has probable cause to believe that the applicant would be a threat to himself or herself or to other individuals, or would commit an offense with the pistol that would violate a law of this or another state or of the United States. An applicant is qualified if all of the following circumstances exist:
    (a) The person is not subject to an order or disposition for which he or she has received notice and an opportunity for a hearing, and which was entered into the law enforcement information network pursuant to any of the following:
    (i) Section 464a(1) of the mental health code, 1974 PA 258, MCL 330.1464a.
    (ii) Section 5107 of the estates and protected individuals code, 1998 PA 386, MCL 700.5107, or section 444a of former 1978 PA 642.
    (iii) Section 2950(10) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950.
    (iv) Section 2950a(7) of the revised judicature act of 1961, 1961 PA 236, MCL 600.2950a.
    (v) Section 14 of 1846 RS 84, MCL 552.14.
    (vi) Section 6b(5) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b, if the order has a condition imposed under section 6b(3) of chapter V of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 765.6b.
    (vii) Section 16b(1) of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.16b.
    (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.
    (c) The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state. For the purposes of this section, a person shall be considered a legal resident of this state if any of the following apply:
    (i) The person has a valid, lawfully obtained Michigan driver license issued under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923, or an official state personal identification card issued under 1972 PA 222, MCL 28.291 to 28.300.
    (ii) The person is lawfully registered to vote in this state.
    (iii) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is stationed outside of this state, but the person's home of record is in this state.
    (iv) The person is on active duty status with the United States armed forces and is permanently stationed in this state, but the person's home of record is in another state.
    (d) A felony charge or a criminal charge listed in section 5b against the person is not pending at the time of application.
    (e) The person is not prohibited from possessing, using, transporting, selling, purchasing, carrying, shipping, receiving, or distributing a firearm under section 224f of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.224f.
    (f) The person has not been adjudged insane in this state or elsewhere unless he or she has been adjudged restored to sanity by court order.
    (g) The person is not under an order of involuntary commitment in an inpatient or outpatient setting due to mental illness.
    (h) The person has not been adjudged legally incapacitated in this state or elsewhere. This subdivision does not apply to a person who has had his or her legal capacity restored by order of the court.
    (i) The person correctly answers 70% or more of the questions on a basic pistol safety review questionnaire approved by the department of state police and provided to the individual free of charge by the licensing authority. If the person fails to correctly answer 70% or more of the questions on the basic pistol safety review questionnaire, the licensing authority shall inform the person of the questions he or she answered incorrectly and allow the person to attempt to complete another basic pistol safety review questionnaire. The person shall not be allowed to attempt to complete more than 2 basic pistol safety review questionnaires on any single day. The licensing authority shall allow the person to attempt to complete the questionnaire during normal business hours on the day the person applies for his or her license.
    (4) Applications for licenses under this section shall be signed by the applicant under oath upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police. Licenses to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistols shall be executed in quadruplicate upon forms provided by the director of the department of state police and shall be signed by the licensing authority. Four copies of the license shall be delivered to the applicant by the licensing authority. A license is void unless used within 10 days after the date it is issued.
    (5) If an individual purchases or otherwise acquires a pistol, the seller shall fill out the license forms describing the pistol, together with the date of sale or acquisition, and sign his or her name in ink indicating that the pistol was sold to or otherwise acquired by the purchaser. The purchaser shall also sign his or her name in ink indicating the purchase or other acquisition of the pistol from the seller. The seller may retain a copy of the license as a record of the transaction. The purchaser shall receive 3 copies of the license. The purchaser shall return 2 copies of the license to the licensing authority within 10 days after the date the pistol is purchased or acquired. The return of the copies to the licensing authority may be made in person or may be made by first-class mail or certified mail sent within the 10-day period to the proper address of the licensing authority. A purchaser who fails to comply with the requirements of this subsection is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $250.00. If a purchaser is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this subsection, the court shall notify the department of state police of that determination.
    (6) Within 48 hours after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall forward 1 copy of the license to the department of state police. The licensing authority shall retain the other copy of the license as an official record for not less than 6 years. Within 10 days after receiving the license copies returned under subsection (5), the licensing authority shall electronically enter the information into the pistol entry database as required by the department of state police if it has the ability to electronically enter that information. If the licensing authority does not have that ability, the licensing authority shall provide that information to the department of state police in a manner otherwise required by the department of state police. Any licensing authority that provided pistol descriptions to the department of state police under former section 9 of this act shall continue to provide pistol descriptions to the department of state police under this subsection. The purchaser has the right to obtain a copy of the information placed in the pistol entry database under this subsection to verify the accuracy of that information. The licensing authority may charge a fee not to exceed $1.00 for the cost of providing the copy. The licensee may carry, use, possess, and transport the pistol for 30 days beginning on the date of purchase or acquisition only while he or she is in possession of his or her copy of the license. However, the person is not required to have the license in his or her possession while carrying, using, possessing, or transporting the pistol after this period.
    (7) This section does not apply to the purchase of pistols from wholesalers by dealers regularly engaged in the business of selling pistols at retail, or to the sale, barter, or exchange of pistols kept as relics or curios not made for modern ammunition or permanently deactivated. This section does not prevent the transfer of ownership of pistols that are inherited if the license to purchase is approved by the commissioner or chief of police, sheriff, or their authorized deputies, and signed by the personal representative of the estate or by the next of kin having authority to dispose of the pistol.
    (8) An individual who is not a resident of this state is not required to obtain a license under this section if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The individual is licensed in his or her state of residence to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
    (b) The individual is in possession of the license described in subdivision (a).
    (c) The individual is the owner of the pistol he or she possesses, carries, or transports.
    (d) The individual possesses the pistol for a lawful purpose as that term is defined in section 231a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.231a.
    (e) The individual is in this state for a period of 180 days or less and does not intend to establish residency in this state.
    (9) An individual who is a nonresident of this state shall present the license described in subsection (8)(a) upon the demand of a police officer. An individual who violates this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    (10) The licensing authority may require a person claiming active duty status with the United States armed forces to provide proof of 1 or both of the following:
    (a) The person's home of record.
    (b) Permanent active duty assignment in this state.
    (11) This section does not apply to a person who is younger than the age required under subsection (3)(b) and who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing that pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The person's parent or guardian is physically present and supervising the person.
    (e) The owner of the pistol is physically present.
    (12) This section does not apply to a person who possesses a pistol if all of the following conditions apply:
    (a) The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a pistol.
    (b) The person is at a recognized target range or shooting facility.
    (c) The person possesses the pistol for the purpose of target practice or instruction in the safe use of a pistol.
    (d) The owner of the pistol is physically present and supervising the use of the pistol.
    (13) The licensing authority shall provide a basic pistol safety brochure to each applicant for a license under this section before the applicant answers the basic pistol safety review questionnaire. A basic pistol safety brochure shall contain, but is not limited to providing, information on all of the following subjects:
    (a) Rules for safe handling and use of pistols.
    (b) Safe storage of pistols.
    (c) Nomenclature and description of various types of pistols.
    (d) The responsibilities of owning a pistol.
    (14) The basic pistol safety brochure shall be supplied in addition to the safety pamphlet required by section 9b.
    (15) The basic pistol safety brochure required in subsection (13) shall be produced by a national nonprofit membership organization that provides voluntary pistol safety programs that include training individuals in the safe handling and use of pistols.
    (16) A person who forges any matter on an application for a license under this section is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
    (17) A licensing authority shall implement this section during all of the licensing authority's normal business hours and shall set hours for implementation that allow an applicant to use the license within the time period set forth in subsection (4).

    History: 1927, Act 372, Eff. Sept. 5, 1927 ;-- CL 1929, 16750 ;-- Am. 1931, Act 333, Imd. Eff. June 16, 1931 ;-- Am. 1941, Act 112, Imd. Eff. May 21, 1941 ;-- Am. 1943, Act 51, Imd. Eff. Mar. 30, 1943 ;-- CL 1948, 28.422 ;-- Am. 1949, Act 170, Eff. Sept. 23, 1949 ;-- Am. 1957, Act 259, Eff. Sept. 27, 1957 ;-- Am. 1964, Act 216, Eff. Aug. 28, 1964 ;-- Am. 1967, Act 158, Eff. Nov. 2, 1967 ;-- Am. 1968, Act 301, Eff. Nov. 15, 1968 ;-- Am. 1972, Act 15, Imd. Eff. Feb. 19, 1972 ;-- Am. 1986, Act 161, Eff. Aug. 1, 1986 ;-- Am. 1990, Act 320, Eff. Mar. 28, 1991 ;-- Am. 1992, Act 219, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992 ;-- Am. 1992, Act 220, Imd. Eff. Oct. 13, 1992 ;-- Am. 1994, Act 338, Eff. Apr. 1, 1996 ;-- Am. 2004, Act 101, Imd. Eff. May 13, 2004 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 195, Eff. Jan. 7, 2009 ;-- Am. 2008, Act 406, Imd. Eff. Jan. 6, 2009
    Constitutionality: The Michigan Court of Appeals held in Chan v City of Troy, 220 Mich App 376; 559 NW2d 374 (1997), that the citizen requirement, now MCL 28.422(3)(c), for a permit to purchase a pistol contained in MCL 28.422(3)(b) violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution and is unconstitutional.
    Popular Name: CCW
    Popular Name: Concealed Weapons
    Popular Name: Right to Carry
    Popular Name: Shall Issue



    As Zig said your information source is wrong. At 18 you can buy from anyone but an FFL as the FFL has to follow Federal law.


    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Niles & Lawton, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    295

    Post imported post

    It was not my information, but I'm trying to have the information brought to the attention of another member. Thank you for the cite.

  6. #6
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Hey just so ya know I wasn't trying to ding ya. Just citing the law and hoping to help out!! I sometimes am kinda blunt and people think I am trying to bring them down but it's just the way I talk!

    Anyway hope the info helps out!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  7. #7
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101

    Post imported post

    Sorry bro, everything I've heard has said you have to be 21. That's what I learned in my CPL class, and that's what they told me over the phone. I understand that the law may technically say otherwise, but when everyone's saying 21, I just don't feel comfortable selling it to someone who's under 21, especially when you wanted me to ship it cause you live almost 5 hours away. If shipping guns wasn't a problem, then I'd imagine everyone and their brother would be doing it on gunbroker.com. Unfortunately, I've yet to see a single person post saying that they'll ship to anyone BUT an FFL dealer. Perhaps that's more the issue than anything, I don't know; but in combination, I can't say that I feel comfortable with it. Sorry things didn't work out.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,416

    Post imported post

    It isn't illegal to sell a handgun to someone over 18 with a valid purchase permit. If it was, they wouldn't give him the permit. Gunbroker has to ship to FFL's because if it crossing state line, but I don't know about in state. I believe the info on this site is correct, but if in doubt you could always ask in the Legal Beagle section on MGO. How many times have we said, "Cops are the wrong people to ask about the law."

    BTW:
    When I called the MSP to ask about selling to a person under 18 (before I found this site), I was told that as long as he had the PPP it was okay.

  9. #9
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101

    Post imported post

    I said if he could get a valid purchase permit, I'd be cool with that. The person I talked to at the MSP said that she *thought* that the 18 thing was for long guns only, but she would get back with me, and put me on hold. I was on hold for 15 minutes, and I assumed that if you can't get me an answer in that reasonable amount of time, the answer was no, so I hung up. My bad in assuming. My FFL buddy, since he's a dealer, probably can't sell for those under 21, so if the law doesn't pertain to him, I imagine he wouldn't know it off the top of his head. The op said he wanted something else anyway, so I don't understand why this is being made an issue tbh.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  10. #10
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    Just because you heard it does not make it law. Now I cited the specific law and you feel that isn't good enough. However IF you were to meet face to face somewhere it would be perfectly legal to sell the pistol to someone 18 to 20 and 364 days old.

    As for shipping the pistol ... I wouldn't do that either.

    The law says the following " (b) The person is 18 years of age or older or, if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older.

    in order to sell a pistol face to face the buyer must be 18 years of age or older. PERIOD they must also have a permit to purchase. If they have both of these then it is perfectly legal to sell the pistol to them as they have already been run through lien in order to get the purchase permit.

    The second part here is the OR part and that states "
    if the seller is licensed under 18 USC 923, is 21 years of age or older."

    USC 923 is the law that states that in order to manufacture deal in or sell firearms for profit you have to be licensed. It also has a clause the makes it unlawful for a person so licensed to sell to anyone under the age of 21. However this only applies to Licensed dealers and not to individuals. Also if a dealer has a personal collection he or she could sell a pistol from that personal collection face to face to a person 18 or older as is the law in MI.

    As a person who has an FFL03 the rules are the same I cannot sell a pistol purchased through the use of my FFL03 to someone under the age of 21. However I can sell any pistol from my personal collection IE guns not purchased with my FFL03 to any person age 18 and above who is legal to own such firearms.

    I would have no problem selling to someone who has a pistol purchase permit and is age 18 as it is perfectly legal as long as you are not a licensed FFL who is selling from your firearms that are listed in your bound book as inventory of your licenced business. NOTE a licenced FFL can sell from their personal collection however!

    Finally a last point. It would be unlawfull for an FFL to transfer a firearm to his personal collection for the sole purpose of selling it to a person that was not of legal age to own it or who could not pass a NICS check. (this would be a strawman transaction) NOTE in MI a state background check through lein is run when you receive a pistol purchase permit. A NICS check is a federal check and goes further. If you have any reservations about the purchaser by all means don't sell to him or her ... but if the only reason is there age 18 and not yet 21 that should not stop or hinder you in any way.

    Note the above is not a LEGAL opinion but is my understanding of the laws pertaining to this discussion. This opinion has been formed through interaction with the BATF on the phone and via letters.

    Also if in anyway what I have posted here offends that is not my intention... I just call it as I see it:P

    Whoops while I was formulating my reply it has been settled ... well maybe this will help someone else who has the same question!!

    Also the reason this is important to discuss is there are already way too many laws that are misquoted and then people are afraid to do things that are perfectly legal because of what they have heard or read that is not correct. So this is not pointed at any one person but is information for any that can use it!

    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  11. #11
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101

    Post imported post

    Yeah, now that I see the law, I'm cool with it. Everyone I talked to said 'they weren't positive', and said 'I think' a lot. I figured it was best to be safe than sorry. Regardless though, driving 2.5 hours to meet someone half way in order to sell a $300 gun is a little ridiculous for my gas guzzler. :P
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  12. #12
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    If they want it that bad they will come to you:celebrate
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •