Detained in Home Depot

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CaptainDan

Regular Member

Jun 17, 2009

#21

imported post

kimber10mm wrote:

not sure of what you are saying but i do know that new orleans has some special gun laws that no one in hte state has

just saying I have had (aside fromthe home depot )absolutly no problem OCing anywhere in N.O,

Actually I was shocked when it happened at first

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imported post

I'm still not sure I understand clearly whether this was a consensual encounter or a detention.

Would you clear that up for me, Cap'n.

For those who might be unfamiliar, here is a quote from a US Supreme Court case, US vs Mendenhall,that gives some indications of whether a detention occurred. I cheerfully recommend reading the entire opinion at the link below.

We adhere to the view that a person is "seized" only when, by means of physical force or a show of authority, his freedom of movement is restrained. Only when such restraint is imposed is there any foundation whatever for invoking constitutional safeguards. The purpose of the Fourth Amendment is not to eliminate all contact between the police and the citizenry, but "to prevent arbitrary and oppressive interference 428 U.S. 543, 554. As long as the person to whom questions are put remains free to disregard the questions and walk away, there has been no intrusion upon that person's liberty or privacy as would under the Constitution require some particularized and objective justification...

We conclude that a person has been "seized" within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment only if, in view of all of the circumstances surrounding the incident, a reasonable person would have believed that he was not free to leave.[suP] [n6][/suP] Examples of circumstances that might indicate a seizure, even where the person did not attempt to leave, would be the threatening presence of several officers, the display of a weapon by an officer, some physical touching of the person of the citizen, or the use of language or tone of voice indicating that compliance with the officer's request might be compelled. See Terry v. Ohio, supra at 19, n. 16; Dunaway v. 442 U.S. 200, 207, and n. 6; 3 W. LaFave, Search and Seizure 53-55 (1978). In the absence of some such evidence, otherwise inoffensive contact between a member of the public and the police cannot, as a matter of law, amount to a seizure of that person.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0446_0544_ZO.html

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CaptainDan

Regular Member

Jun 17, 2009

#23

imported post

ok here goes, the facts are as follows: She approached me, began firing questions at me, demanded awnsers and stepped directly in my personal space, before i awnsered the first question , I stepped back and she once again closed the gap. When I did not cower she literally shrank back , when I felt the tide turn during the course of the interogation I ended it by leaving. I never said she touched me, grabbed me or tried to disarm me. I even said I offered my ID and sidearm for inspection after she insinuated( after not producing this mystery paperwork) my firearm was stolen, and she declined. This officer TRIED to use intimidation to keep me EXACTLY where I was until I awnsered all her questions, TO HER SATISFACTION, she did not count on an educated citizen and it blew up in her face. I know without a doubt she planned on cuffing me but was shocked and didn't know what to do when I educated her. Now, the second officer was not only educated but also polite and actually very pleasant.

Now , I was stopped, bullied, and kept for interogation, that IS DETAINMENT.

I have no ill feelings, no sence of rape becouse NOTHING CAME OF IT, however it was detainment, perhaps not physical but she used her badge to stop me, question me and basically bully me. Will I persue this? no, I am not bleeding nor bruised and also becouse of this incident I found out that at least 1 LEO is on our side. Not a bad trade.

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CaptainDan

Regular Member

Jun 17, 2009

#24

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I don't even think she is allowed to ask me about my side arm without at least one of the following conditions:

1 a crime has been commited

2 a crime is about to be commited

3 a crime is being commited

violation of civil rights? I think so but not putting much into it becouse , like I said, nothing came of it.

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CaptainDan

Regular Member

Jun 17, 2009

#25

imported post

lsushawn wrote:

XD-GEM wrote:

Guys,

You are both reading too much into Dan's post. Please don't turn another thread into a shouting match. Dan did not say she was anything other than misinformed (and a bit abruptly presumptive, perhaps); nor did he claim a rights violation.

And sometimes "detained" doesn't have the legal meaning we often haggle over; it can simply mean "delayed."

Dan's method of handling this is one that is actually more common among the members of this board than those to which lsushawn objects. Personally, I have a binder in my car with copies of the relevant legal items and offer to share them, when necessary. Sometimes, however, people believe what they want to believe and think that the articles are something ficticious.

Click to expand...

I don't recall shouting or name calling andIDO NOT object to OCing or handling situations in a calm reasonable manner.The only thing I was trying to get across is that the title of his thread will tend to make people (like 357) think that he was not allowed to go about his buisiness if he so chose to. The terminology used was very MEM esque. I commended him for handling the situation like he did, it was handled the way all encounters such as this should be handled.

concerning the "very MEM esque" comment , I must reply. I neitherfollow nor worship any man, MEM is a member of this forum just as you and I and to imply someone ealse is mimicking him is to imply he is in some way wrong. I am neither better nor worse a man than Mark, different yes, I chose to handle my situation VERY DIFFERENTLY than Markmight have. Possibly becouse of the screwing he recieved during his incident. I have not been treated in any way, shape or formas badly as him so I harbor no deephatred for LEO. When I used the term Detained I didn't mean it in the literal sence as perhaps(I can't speak for the man) Mark might have. When I am stopped, interogated and bullied, taking my time to have a conversation I didn't want to have, that is to me being detained.I did not say arrested, I said detained. Mark is entitled to his point of view as are you and I. Do I want to be just like him, you or anybody ealse? He#$ no. My wife married Captain Dan, not Mark,Jim, Bob or anybody ealse. I assure you I am EXTREMELY capable of standing on my own merits without having to mimmic the actions of others.Iwould ratherhandle confrontations calmly with manners instead of cheap shots and juvenile name calling, it works for me. If I have to roll up my sleeves and and get messy, fine. In fact there is way too much grass outside for name calling , I just don't play that way. I hope no one takes offense to this post as I truly enjoy the company of like mindedfree citizenshowever I want it made clear I am my own man.

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smoking357

Banned

Jun 18, 2009

#26

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CaptainDan wrote:

concerning the "very MEM esque" comment , I must reply.

Why? It's an insult to you to answer, as it strips you of your individuality. These statist thugs are so bewildered when one man thinks himself the locus of all rights that they can't accept the possibility that there might be more freemen out there.

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HungSquirrel

Regular Member

Jun 18, 2009

#27

imported post

smoking357 wrote:

We need some sort of alarm that goes out to OC'ers to inform us when a brother is in trouble so the thin red line can respond immediately and close the line around the offender.

Many of the New Hampshire OCers use the Porc911 service, an alert service wherein people can leave voicemails from their cell phones and the message gets forwarded to the email inboxes of everyone who has signed up.

That setup requires someone with technical know-how to configure. An easier solution would be to use Twitter. Anyone with a cell phone could send a text message to Twitter, and anyone following that user can be alerted to the problem via text message. Of course, it would require some of you less technically competent people to learn how to text, but who can put a price on protecting our rights?

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smoking357

Banned

Jun 18, 2009

#28

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HungSquirrel wrote:

smoking357 wrote:

We need some sort of alarm that goes out to OC'ers to inform us when a brother is in trouble so the thin red line can respond immediately and close the line around the offender.

Click to expand...

Many of the New Hampshire OCers use the Porc911 service, an alert service wherein people can leave voicemails from their cell phones and the message gets forwarded to the email inboxes of everyone who has signed up.

That setup requires someone with technical know-how to configure. An easier solution would be to use Twitter. Anyone with a cell phone could send a text message to Twitter, and anyone following that user can be alerted to the problem via text message. Of course, it would require some of you less technically competent people to learn how to text, but who can put a price on protecting our rights?

Since the OC'er is under attack, he or she will only have time to get a call out. The person answering the call will have to send the message and dispatch the OC'ers.

Is it possible to establish a number that would ring to several phones, in succession? If Jack is in a meeting, he lets the call pass, and the call would roll to Bill, next in line.

I suppose we could let a CC'er in distress use our service. This site is going places. We might have to charge annual dues, soon. If we get enough subscribers, we could hire a dispatcher.

I don't know why the NRA or GOA hasn't built such a service.

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mark edward marchiafava

Banned

Jun 18, 2009

#29

imported post

For some of us OLD farts, twitter is the sound a bird makes,
text refers to the letters on a page in a book.

Could an alert call regular landline phones, too?

sraacke

Regular Member

Jun 18, 2009

#30

imported post

Well handeled, Dan. Hopefully you won't have to go through something like that again. If the Deputy was working as a Rent-A-Cop for the store I would probably consider a brief complaint to the store management regarding her harrassment of shoppers in their store.

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smoking357

Banned

Jun 18, 2009

#31

imported post

yale wrote:

Well handeled, Dan. Hopefully you won't have to go through something like that again. If the Deputy was working as a Rent-A-Cop for the store I would probably consider a brief complaint to the store management regarding her harrassment of shoppers in their store.

The first question you ask a cop in such a situation is "are you acting under color of state authority?"

Cops like to answer that with some variant of "I have police power everywhere in the state," or "I am a police officer."

You should reply "that's great, but are you acting under color of state authority?"

Cop: "are you going to answer my questions?"

You: "are you going to state the basis for your authority?"

Cop: "I already told you I was a police officer."

You: "That's great, but I'll need you to answer the question."

It goes from there until you get a free bike.

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CaptainDan

Regular Member

Jun 18, 2009

#32

imported post

yale wrote:

Well handeled, Dan. Hopefully you won't have to go through something like that again. If the Deputy was working as a Rent-A-Cop for the store I would probably consider a brief complaint to the store management regarding her harrassment of shoppers in their store.

Not a bad idea, however they haven't pushed so why should I? Also there is a different officer there every time so I think it's a regular gig for the N.O. P.D. rather than a rent a cop situation. Also the other officer assured mehe himself would pass the info on to his co-worker so I doubt it will happen again.

I just dropped my son off at a friends house and pumped gas standing right beside a N.O. Sheriff at the Shell on West Bank (next to West Jeff hosp) and aside from a glance at my XDM , nothing but a nod.

I carry EVERYWHERE in N.O. and refuse to leave my house without my side arm and this was the first incident I have ever had. I am truly comfortable carrying in N.O.

I know my comfort was provided by others who have endured hardships, written letters and in other ways brought our rights to light and truly I am grateful, but in my situation the problem just went away. I did my part (however small) and it was resolved. I don't like to show my a%% unless I have to and becouse of others before me I didn't have to. I even found out one officer was on our side, so in all I'm glad this happened.Three reasons:

1I DIDN'T GO TO JAIL

2 I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE AN L.E.O, (POSSIBLY MAKING IT EASIER ON THE NEXT OCer)

3 I FOUND OUT AT LEAST ONE LEO IS PRO OPEN CARRY

In all I got to helpour cause and suffered no ill effects (unlike some of our brothers)so no harm no foul. However you are right. If it happens again I most certainly willbring the matter to management.

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HungSquirrel

Regular Member

Jun 18, 2009

#33

imported post

Since the OC'er is under attack, he or she will only have time to get a call out. The person answering the call will have to send the message and dispatch the OC'ers.

The Porc 411 service (I wrote 911 earlier, but it's actually 411) allows you to call a number, which almost immediately starts recording and doesn't stop until you hang up. Once the user hangs up, the service sends an alert to everyone who has signed up; no human intervention is required to forward the audio message. In theory, it was set up to allow Free Staters to quickly get the word out about activism opportunities, but it is used fairly often to report police encounters. I believe more than one Porc user has used the service to record and disseminate entire police encounters seconds after they happen. Setting up such a service is very technically involved, however!

Could an alert call regular landline phones, too?

Not as easily, but I imagine it can be done.

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nolacopusmc

Banned

Jun 18, 2009

#34

imported post

smoking357 wrote:

yale wrote:

Well handeled, Dan. Hopefully you won't have to go through something like that again. If the Deputy was working as a Rent-A-Cop for the store I would probably consider a brief complaint to the store management regarding her harrassment of shoppers in their store.

Click to expand...

The first question you ask a cop in such a situation is "are you acting under color of state authority?"

Cops like to answer that with some variant of "I have police power everywhere in the state," or "I am a police officer."

You should reply "that's great, but are you acting under color of state authority?"

Cop: "are you going to answer my questions?"

You: "are you going to state the basis for your authority?"

Cop: "I already told you I was a police officer."

You: "That's great, but I'll need you to answer the question."

It goes from there until you get a free bike.

And that is all that really matters right?

XD-GEM

Campaign Veteran

Jun 18, 2009

#35

imported post

kimber10mm wrote:

not sure of what you are saying but i do know that new orleans has some special gun laws that no one in hte state has

Which ones do you mean? I know that there are some older laws that chased the gun shops out of town. Believe it or not, you used to be able to buy firearms at Harry's Ace Hardware on Magazine (a long time ago).

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nolacopusmc

Banned

Jun 18, 2009

#36

imported post

CaptainDan wrote:

yale wrote:

Well handeled, Dan. Hopefully you won't have to go through something like that again. If the Deputy was working as a Rent-A-Cop for the store I would probably consider a brief complaint to the store management regarding her harrassment of shoppers in their store.

Click to expand...

Not a bad idea, however they haven't pushed so why should I? Also there is a different officer there every time so I think it's a regular gig for the N.O. P.D. rather than a rent a cop situation. Also the other officer assured mehe himself would pass the info on to his co-worker so I doubt it will happen again.

I just dropped my son off at a friends house and pumped gas standing right beside a N.O. Sheriff at the Shell on West Bank (next to West Jeff hosp) and aside from a glance at my XDM , nothing but a nod.

I carry EVERYWHERE in N.O. and refuse to leave my house without my side arm and this was the first incident I have ever had. I am truly comfortable carrying in N.O.

I know my comfort was provided by others who have endured hardships, written letters and in other ways brought our rights to light and truly I am grateful, but in my situation the problem just went away. I did my part (however small) and it was resolved. I don't like to show my a%% unless I have to and becouse of others before me I didn't have to. I even found out one officer was on our side, so in all I'm glad this happened.Three reasons:

1I DIDN'T GO TO JAIL
2 I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE AN L.E.O, (POSSIBLY MAKING IT EASIER ON THE NEXT OCer)

3 I FOUND OUT AT LEAST ONE LEO IS PRO OPEN CARRY

In all I got to helpour cause and suffered no ill effects (unlike some of our brothers)so no harm no foul. However you are right. If it happens again I most certainly willbring the matter to management.

Captain Dan,

FWIW, as a LEO, I think you handled the incident about as best one could expect. A lot of people on here will suggest you try to push the issue so that you can " get a free bike." That is what SOME people on this site are all about. That does not appear to be the case with you.

Based on your story, with the exception of the desire to "put the deputy in her place" (even though I know it feels good

), I would expect or be "Satisfied" with that response. That said, unless something you said or did made me directly suspicious of your behavior or intentions, I probably would not approach unless a complaint was made. At that point I would investigate, and would definitely establish your identity. I may or may not run your firearm to see if it were stolen based on how my investigation, or more aptly, our discussion went.

You are right, there is no need to show one's ass in most situations. However many on this site seem to walk around all day with their ass out.

You will find, like in every occupation that there are those who are more and less informed than others. Secondly, some people just receive flat out wrong info. What many on here do not realize, is that if they would just answer a question or two, in a non-confrontational manner, things would go more smoothly.

Of ocurse, they will come back and say you should sue, were detained and mistreated, but you are already seeing, as evidenced by your posts, that many on here probably receive monthly checks from the government based on their mental state. :shock:

Well done. Be safe.

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CaptainDan

Regular Member

Jun 18, 2009

#37

imported post

just out of curiosity, aside from moral support, what could we do for someone being harrased for OC ?

Got a bad feeling they would get us for unlawful assembly or some other such bs.I can't imagine a bunch of men strapped, telling a uniformed officer he can't do what he's doing would go over too well.More than likely we would all wind up in jail.

Not saying I wouldn't go through it for the cause if I had to, but if there is a way to help without pissing off the powers that be , people who hate us are less likely to listen to us.

As long as we are within our rights to OC, we don't need to make any more enemies,we have enough as it is.

The concept is admirable, I would help any brother I could but there has to be a better way.

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CaptainDan

Regular Member

Jun 18, 2009

#38

imported post

nolacopusmc wrote:

CaptainDan wrote:

yale wrote:

Well handeled, Dan. Hopefully you won't have to go through something like that again. If the Deputy was working as a Rent-A-Cop for the store I would probably consider a brief complaint to the store management regarding her harrassment of shoppers in their store.

Click to expand...

Not a bad idea, however they haven't pushed so why should I? Also there is a different officer there every time so I think it's a regular gig for the N.O. P.D. rather than a rent a cop situation. Also the other officer assured mehe himself would pass the info on to his co-worker so I doubt it will happen again.

I just dropped my son off at a friends house and pumped gas standing right beside a N.O. Sheriff at the Shell on West Bank (next to West Jeff hosp) and aside from a glance at my XDM , nothing but a nod.

I carry EVERYWHERE in N.O. and refuse to leave my house without my side arm and this was the first incident I have ever had. I am truly comfortable carrying in N.O.

I know my comfort was provided by others who have endured hardships, written letters and in other ways brought our rights to light and truly I am grateful, but in my situation the problem just went away. I did my part (however small) and it was resolved. I don't like to show my a%% unless I have to and becouse of others before me I didn't have to. I even found out one officer was on our side, so in all I'm glad this happened.Three reasons:

1I DIDN'T GO TO JAIL
2 I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO EDUCATE AN L.E.O, (POSSIBLY MAKING IT EASIER ON THE NEXT OCer)

3 I FOUND OUT AT LEAST ONE LEO IS PRO OPEN CARRY

In all I got to helpour cause and suffered no ill effects (unlike some of our brothers)so no harm no foul. However you are right. If it happens again I most certainly willbring the matter to management.

Click to expand...

Captain Dan,

FWIW, as a LEO, I think you handled the incident about as best one could expect. A lot of people on here will suggest you try to push the issue so that you can " get a free bike." That is what SOME people on this site are all about. That does not appear to be the case with you.

Based on your story, with the exception of the desire to "put the deputy in her place" (even though I know it feels good ), I would expect or be "Satisfied" with that response. That said, unless something you said or did made me directly suspicious of your behavior or intentions, I probably would not approach unless a complaint was made. At that point I would investigate, and would definitely establish your identity. I may or may not run your firearm to see if it were stolen based on how my investigation, or more aptly, our discussion went.

You are right, there is no need to show one's ass in most situations. However many on this site seem to walk around all day with their ass out.

You will find, like in every occupation that there are those who are more and less informed than others. Secondly, some people just receive flat out wrong info. What many on here do not realize, is that if they would just answer a question or two, in a non-confrontational manner, things would go more smoothly.

Of ocurse, they will come back and say you should sue, were detained and mistreated, but you are already seeing, as evidenced by your posts, that many on here probably receive monthly checks from the government based on their mental state. :shock:

Well done. Be safe.

Thanks for the support, I try not to make any enemies if I don't have to

J

Jared

Regular Member

Jun 18, 2009

#39

imported post

Sorry, but what is fair is fair. She may have been as uninformed as possible, but she did not detain you. She did not demand anything and she did not detain you. She simply asked you questions. She should have known better, but she in no way violated your rights.

I understand thatcivil rights issues solve this stuff becausemoney talks and BS walks; however, this isn't the posterchild MEM case where you were arrested of OC'ing.

That being saidif she detained you that's one thing, the best way toclearALL ambiguity to whether you are detained or not is to ask "am I free to go".

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smoking357

Banned

Jun 18, 2009

#40

imported post

CaptainDan wrote:

just out of curiosity, aside from moral support, what could we do for someone being harrased for OC ?

Just out of curiousity, for what purpose did the Founders write the 2A?

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