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Thread: Capital Times (WI): Gun toters point to eased regulations as fix for recent violence

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    2 typos - my first name is Mike not Mark. Also, our request to Sen. Decker was not repeal the vehicle and school zone carry bans - it was tosuggest he amend SB 222 to make it work as he intended, and let hunters OC in veghicles - as drafted, SB 222 does not overcome the concealed carry ban according to judicial interpretation in State v. Fry.

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    http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/455641

    Gun toters point to eased regulations as fix for recent violence
    Steven Elbow β€” 6/20/2009 8:28 am

    With two area murders in the past two weeks, two officers shot, and a popular candy store owner killed in Milwaukee -- all by gunfire -- it might seem to be an odd time to try to get more guns on the street. But gun advocates say this is the perfect time to build momentum for a movement that is already gaining traction.

    "That's just all the more reason why the good guys ought to be able to carry their guns," says Mark Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org, a Virginia-based pro-gun website that has targeted Wisconsin for a media and lobbying campaign to loosen restrictions on guns.

    Stollenwerk says of the 44 states that allow citizens to openly carry firearms, Wisconsin has the most obstacles in place to infringe on that right -- in particular, a 1,000-foot ban around schools and a prohibition against driving with a firearm within reach.

    Repealing either prohibition is a bad idea, according to Dane County Sheriff Dave Mahoney.

    While acknowledging an advisory opinion by state Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen in April that citizens should not be sanctioned for carrying guns in public, Mahoney says, "I think we need to adhere to some exceptions."

    He says he doesn't want schools to be put in harm's way, and he doesn't want his officers wondering if every driver they pull over has access to a gun.

    And the argument that more guns equals less crime? He fears that deterring crime by citizen gunfire is a recipe for disaster.

    "I don't know that we want the streets of Madison to be the OK Corral," he says.

    Madison Mayor Dave Cieslewicz -- contending with heightened neighborhood unease in the wake of a 17-year-old high school student being gunned down on the city's southwest side two weeks ago, and the murder last week of a 23-year-old Madison man in nearby Fitchburg -- agrees.

    "I don't think the answer to gun violence is more guns," he says.

    He says Madison Police Chief Noble Wray will be heading up a task force of law enforcement officials that will focus on reducing gun violence and getting guns off the street. Wray declined comment for this story.

    But gun advocates are sticking with their main argument: Criminals already have guns, so why shouldn't law-abiding citizens?

    "You make a store or a school or a bank a no-gun zone, you make it a prime target for somebody who wants to shoot the place up," says Sauk City gun advocate Candace Dainty.

    Dainty, statewide organizer for the national group Second Amendment Sisters, is outspoken in her belief that guns -- carried in the open or concealed -- should be allowed anywhere: schools, public buildings, hospitals. Earlier this year, she tried to organize a rally to take place on June 16 on the grounds of the State Capitol. She scrubbed the plan, ironically, because she was afraid of who might show up with a gun. Reading an online forum on OpenCarry.org, she came upon discussions among several people who planned to show up with long guns, which would have taken the event in an unintended direction, she says.

    "In every whole group, you're going to have a nut case or two," she says. "And my rally drew out the nut cases."

    OpenCarry.org had wanted to play a part in the rally, but its main focus is issue involvement. Using donations from Wisconsin, OpenCarry has launched a radio ad campaign to encourage people to visit its website. The group, which boasts 19,000 members nationally, has sent e-mails to lawmakers with its concerns, and it encourages others to do the same.

    "Let's talk to the right guy for the right law," Stollenwerk says. "This is one way to tell them. If he gets more than three or four of these e-mails, he's going to investigate what the heck's going on. If he gets 10 or 20, he may introduce a bill."

    OpenCarry has posted a petition for the Wisconsin Legislature on its website, which Stollenwerk says has garnered about 1,500 signatures. It has targeted Senate Majority Leader Russ Decker, D-Weston, who has introduced a bill that would eliminate the requirement that hunters encase their guns while inside a vehicle. Stollenwerk says he wants the bill to include the elimination of school zones and to allow citizens to drive with holstered sidearms.

    "Although open carry is legal, there are so many obstacles, you almost need a master's degree in statutes to get around the state," he says. "We gotta get this 1,000-foot gun ban around schools repealed, and we've certainly got to fix this problem in vehicles."

    According to his spokeswoman, Carrie Lynch, Decker isn't interested.

    "It's about hunting," she says of the bill, "and we're not going to be amending it to include any other concerns."



    Emboldened by a renewed pro-gun movement -- fueled nationally by the election of President Barack Obama, who many believed was set to enact wide-ranging gun restrictions, and in Wisconsin by Van Hollen's advisory opinion -- the pro-gun movement is on a roll.

    Stollenwerk said he's never seen anything like it and that contrary to the expectations of many, the takeover of the U.S. government and many state governments by Democrats has been a boon to the movement.

    "Congress is passing more pro-gun legislation than they have in probably 50 years," he says.

    Congressional Democrats in Washington, seeing guns as a political third rail, have recently voted to roll back restrictions on firearms in national parks, following the lead of several states that have done the same.

    A retired lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army, Stollenwerk is now a third-year law student at Georgetown University and founder of the pro-gun law student group called the Georgetown Law-Militia. As states debate gun laws, his group's website provides legal advice and an organizational forum. It also provides talking points that keep activists focused.

    "We're enabling people to communicate and take gun rights to a higher level of discussion," he says.

    He points to a meeting in Greenfield, Wis., last week as a case in point.

    Greenfield Ald. Linda Lubotsky had wanted to allow police to fine gun-toting citizens who entered stores that posted "no gun" signs.

    About 15 gun advocates showed up armed with information, some of which made it apparent that the proposed ordinance was likely to come under a credible legal challenge.

    The proposal was tabled pending further research, but Lubotsky still hopes she can pass an ordinance that can hold up to legal scrutiny.

    "There were about 15 people there that took their guns off and left them in the car, because this is a public building, and they gave me a lot of information and they were very courteous," she says. "They attend all these different municipal meetings to try to protect their rights, which is certainly their option."

    Lubotsky says she's not against open carry of firearms; she just wants store owners to be able to have a say on what weapons are being brought into their stores.

    Gun activists also showed up last week at a City Council meeting in South Milwaukee, where a similar ordinance went down on a 4-4 vote, with the mayor refusing to break the tie.

    "What's going to happen in Wisconsin, like other states, is you're going to get people who go to these public meetings, and they're going to travel beyond their hometown," Stollenwerk says, adding that eventually, officials will have to accept guns as a matter of course.

    "Once you reach a critical mass of people who stand up and start carrying and say, 'If you bother me I'm going to sue you' ... all of a sudden it's like the sky clears, and all of a sudden, basically, they leave you alone."



    Law enforcement officials in Madison and Fitchburg, where area gun violence has been especially rife in recent weeks, declined comment on the gun advocates' argument that more guns equals less crime.

    But a Google news search for accidental shootings reveals the downside of gun ownership: There's the 3-year-old girl in Bakersfield, Calif., who found a .45-caliber handgun under her parents' bed and shot her 2-year-old brother dead; the Newton County, Texas, man who went to his trailer home to retrieve a .40-caliber Glock pistol to settle a property dispute but instead shot his fiance in the head; the Hiram, Ohio, man who killed his 58-year-old wife while he was cleaning his gun.

    But Stollenwerk is quick to provide the positives: the far more rare but less tragic stories of crimes thwarted by plucky armed citizens. There's the son in Biloxi, Miss., who plugged an intruder in his mother's home; the man in a pharmacy drive-up in Tucson, Ariz., who shot a woman whose gun malfunctioned when she tried to fire at him; the Roanoke, Va., family man who, upon hearing a deranged man trying to enter his home, locked his family in a bedroom and then shot the intruder.

    Examples like these, which were published in the July 2009 National Rifle Association newsletter, are the meat and potatoes of the pro-gun advocates' arguments in defense of the right to bear arms. The passion such stories engender have Stollenwerk hopeful that someday, Wisconsin will move beyond the current debate about open carry and join the other 48 states that allow citizens to carry concealed weapons.

    "A lot of people like to jump right to concealed carry, but first things first," he says. "You've got to get your basic rights to move around the state with a gun openly before you start talking about trying to get a special permit to conceal one."

    selbow@madison.com





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    "the far more rare but less tragic stories of crimes thwarted by plucky armed citizens. There's the son in Biloxi, Miss., who plugged an intruder in his mother's home; the man in a pharmacy drive-up in Tucson, Ariz., who shot a woman whose gun malfunctioned when she tried to fire at him; the Roanoke, Va., family man who, upon hearing a deranged man trying to enter his home, locked his family in a bedroom and then shot the intruder."

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    What BS. The gun accidents she sites are far more rare than cases of self defense. She has it exactly reversed, and it is no accident, pun intended.


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    I think there should be a bigger recall than just Doyles. Recall any Senator, Congressman or State Representative that votes against gun rights. Now there is a movement.

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    Mike wrote:
    He says he doesn't want schools to be put in harm's way, and he doesn't want his officers wondering if every driver they pull over has access to a gun.
    I would time that every officer should wonder this anyway, what a *******.


    "I don't know that we want the streets of Madison to be the OK Corral," he says.
    How many more times do we have to hear this crap? In all the other states this doesn't happen, what is it about Wisconsin that makes it special?

    Madison Mayor Dave Cieslewicz -- contending with heightened neighborhood unease in the wake of a 17-year-old high school student being gunned down on the city's southwest side two weeks ago, and the murder last week of a 23-year-old Madison man in nearby Fitchburg -- agrees.

    "I don't think the answer to gun violence is more guns," he says.

    He says Madison Police Chief Noble Wray will be heading up a task force of law enforcement officials that will focus on reducing gun violence and getting guns off the street. Wray declined comment for this story.

    But gun advocates are sticking with their main argument: Criminals already have guns, so why shouldn't law-abiding citizens?

    "You make a store or a school or a bank a no-gun zone, you make it a prime target for somebody who wants to shoot the place up," says Sauk City gun advocate Candace Dainty.

    Dainty, statewide organizer for the national group Second Amendment Sisters, is outspoken in her belief that guns -- carried in the open or concealed -- should be allowed anywhere: schools, public buildings, hospitals. Earlier this year, she tried to organize a rally to take place on June 16 on the grounds of the State Capitol. She scrubbed the plan, ironically, because she was afraid of who might show up with a gun. Reading an online forum on OpenCarry.org, she came upon discussions among several people who planned to show up with long guns, which would have taken the event in an unintended direction, she says.

    "In every whole group, you're going to have a nut case or two," she says. "And my rally drew out the nut cases."
    She doesn't sound like a TRUE 2nd Amd. advocate, glad she cancelled.

    The proposal was tabled pending further research, but Lubotsky still hopes she can pass an ordinance that can hold up to legal scrutiny.

    "There were about 15 people there that took their guns off and left them in the car, because this is a public building, and they gave me a lot of information and they were very courteous," she says. "They attend all these different municipal meetings to try to protect their rights, which is certainly their option."

    Lubotsky says she's not against open carry of firearms; she just wants store owners to be able to have a say on what weapons are being brought into their stores.
    They already do have a say they can ban weapons, but let the property owner decide not the state.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Woodchuck wrote: I liked the letter he read at the end of the video talking about how 'mistaken' gun owners are. Wow, some random person told me I'm mistaken, with no evidence or proof to fly in the face of the mountains that exist that contradict that statement.... Gosh, I'm soooo mistaken, based on......... Nothing? It reminds me of a bit from Family Guy, but funnier, because that show is blatantly anti-constitutional as well, yet shoots itself in the foot in it's sad and self-defeating attempts at political satire... It's a waste of otherwise good entertainiment and talent... But I digress...

    And the statements about foreign crime, wow. where do these people get their information? Heavily gun-controlled societies all have violent crime rates WAY higher than ours. It's very easy to find this information. Unless, of course, all you do is listen to anti-gun lobbyists instead of doing actual research....

    In the UK, a rapist can actually sue, and win, if his victim doesn't satisfy him. Is this the answer?
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    But a Google news search for accidental shootings reveals the downside of gun ownership: There's the 3-year-old girl in Bakersfield, Calif., who found a .45-caliber handgun under her parents' bed and shot her 2-year-old brother dead; the Newton County, Texas, man who went to his trailer home to retrieve a .40-caliber Glock pistol to settle a property dispute but instead shot his fiance in the head; the Hiram, Ohio, man who killed his 58-year-old wife while he was cleaning his gun.

    But Stollenwerk is quick to provide the positives: the far more rare but less tragic stories of crimes thwarted by plucky armed citizens. There's the son in Biloxi, Miss., who plugged an intruder in his mother's home; the man in a pharmacy drive-up in Tucson, Ariz., who shot a woman whose gun malfunctioned when she tried to fire at him; the Roanoke, Va., family man who, upon hearing a deranged man trying to enter his home, locked his family in a bedroom and then shot the intruder.
    Why is it reporters just love to flat-out lie? the accidents cited above are what is rare. Using a gun to stop a crime happens hundreds, even thousands of times, every day. If kids killed themselves MORE frequently, as this reporter suggests, the entire under 18 population of the country would be in a cemetery in under a week!
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Wish we can we sue the reporters for these reports,or at least threaten them or simply make their life miserable, so they will learn. Shooting for the moon? Veritas. Remember the word?

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    KS_to_CA wrote:
    Veritas.
    My preferred rendition of the word:


    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    IF these folks would do research on crimes stopped by weapons they would find out it's over 1 million times a year. That's the REPORTED number, unreported is probably twice that. And the OK corral statement, aww c'mon let's get real. (Anyhow it wasn't even AT the OK corral)
    Keep your powder dry!
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    I hope that none of the good sheriffs officers ever get a job as LEO in MO as we can legally carry a loaded concealed weapon anywhere inside a vehicle and can have the concealed weapon in a vehicle on school property as long as it is not brandished. The good sheriffs officers would have to have a huge supply of panties for a daily change if they worked in MO.

    No shootings from the above activities that I have heard of.

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    "I don't know that we want the streets of Madison to be the OK Corral," he says.
    Why do they always bring this up as part of their argument. WE carriers don't want to see incidents like this again either.

    Do they not know that their is still an unresolved debate concerning that particular gunfight between Lawmen and suspected bad guys. Some historians believe that this shootout was uncalled forand was instigated by Earp and his "fellow officers of the law" against "nefarious"people that were about to leave town.

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    ixtow wrote:
    KS_to_CA wrote:
    Veritas.
    My preferred rendition of the word:

    As a 100% Irish boy I have to tell ya I love "Boondock Saints."
    Truth and Justice

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    Wyatt Earp was an anti-2A weenie, that killed one of his own deputies out of fear. The only lesson to be learned here, is how to make a good Hollywood story, if you spin it right.

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    Tex4OC wrote:
    Wyatt Earp was an anti-2A weenie, that killed one of his own deputies out of fear. The only lesson to be learned here, is how to make a good Hollywood story, if you spin it right.
    Have you seen that program (on the History Channel I think) where some forensic investigators have managed to recreate the actual gun fight, using eye witness testimony and autopsy reports? In their portrayal of the event, it seems that Holiday started the shooting (possibly prematurely) and in about 5 seconds the 4 men were lying on the ground dead or dieing.

    In the movies they get a good 5 to 10 minutes worth of shootemup out of it.

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    The cases of gun "accidents" are never accidents. There is NO such thing as a gun Accident. There is however careless handling. No gun should be where a four year old can get hold of it. The gun's owner must be totally conscious of where his/her gun is at all times and that it cannot be picked up by a child!

    Owners frequently become too comfortable with their guns. They forget that ALL guns are loaded. Even the one that was recently 'cleared.' We must learn to not have a chambered cartridge yet treat the gun as if we do. It is not the gun's fault if the owner is a dufus.

    Gun ownership requires discipline and focus. It's like being in a car traveling 100 mph all the time.

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    At the same time, we overprotect our kids today. My father was shooting his own .22 rifle at 6 years old. Growing up he, and his siblings, knew full well what a gun was, how it worked in general, and what can happen. Nowadays, I hear of 11 year oldswho shoot their friends because they've no idea what they're doing with their parents firearms that they find under a bed.

    Teach your kids early about gun safety. Never own a firearm and not tell your kid a damned thing about it. That's how kids get hurt, and it's entirely preventable.

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    wi_coord@2asisters.org wrote:
    The cases of gun "accidents" are never accidents. There is NO such thing as a gun Accident. There is however careless handling. No gun should be where a four year old can get hold of it. The gun's owner must be totally conscious of where his/her gun is at all times and that it cannot be picked up by a child!

    Owners frequently become too comfortable with their guns. They forget that ALL guns are loaded. Even the one that was recently 'cleared.' We must learn to not have a chambered cartridge yet treat the gun as if we do. It is not the gun's fault if the owner is a dufus.

    Gun ownership requires discipline and focus. It's like being in a car traveling 100 mph all the time.
    I agree 100%. The tool is just about never at fault. It is a user error that is the problem with 99.999% of gun "accidents". I also have to agree about the discipline that gun ownership requires. I feel that the carry of a gun requires even more. I like the way you put it, that it is like a car at 100MPH, and that it fits in your hand.

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    NightOwl wrote:
    At the same time, we overprotect our kids today. My father was shooting his own .22 rifle at 6 years old. Growing up he, and his siblings, knew full well what a gun was, how it worked in general, and what can happen. Nowadays, I hear of 11 year oldswho shoot their friends because they've no idea what they're doing with their parents firearms that they find under a bed.

    Teach your kids early about gun safety. Never own a firearm and not tell your kid a damned thing about it. That's how kids get hurt, and it's entirely preventable.
    Damned right! I HAD a friend who used to rip the covers off of his TVGuide with his wife so that the kids wouldn't see anything "offensive". They were also the ones who would watch shows, and if there were any gunfire they would cover the kids' ears and distract them until the gun play was over. Unless of course it was a SciFi show with laser fire, that didn't count because they weren't real... Oh good call! And yes, they live in Madison now.

    I went hunting with my own guns when I was in the single digits. I respected my dad's guns and still do.
    I aim to misbehave

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    At age 5 I fired my great Grandfathers Colt Peacemaker, of course he held it with me, but. At age 7 I had a single shot bolt action .22. By age 7 I hunted rabbits and squirrels with a bolt action mossberg .410. Taught my daughters at a very young age what a firearm will do to a water filled .50 cal can.
    The country is becoming WEAK, because there's so many dang pansies and Kool-aid drinkers. God help us if we ever get invaded, becuse the pansies will want to negotiate first. geez
    Keep your powder dry!
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    I'm glad there are others as spirited with their attitudes as I am.

    My first gun was my Daisy model 25 BB gun that I killed more bullseyes and intended targets than a lot of rappers do. And I can't stress enough how important I see it now as I can remember tracking the slow semi-elliptical flight of the BB as I removed one of the glass balls off of a lightning rod on the barn just prior to my spanking for doing so. Seriously, I learned a lot about shooting with that thing. And I still have it, as my dad has his first BB gun yet.

    As a kid I can remember packing a lunch in my backpack and walking back to the woods with my dad's single shot .22 and spending the day hunting squirrels. Of course it was with my dad's permission as I did NOT want to face that kind of licking since my dad was very good at explaining what was and was not right to do. Visuals were always used, and if the rules were violated, there was a clear punishment. Looking back, I'm glad he taught me like he did.

    My generation was probably one of or the last to be taught responsibility for our actions. I grew up without the burden of having to be PC, but I did have respect for those that deserved it. I still do. And I plan on passing morals onto my kids, and I don't need any "village" to raise my kids since I plan on having them be responsible for their own actions and not blaming everyone else.

    And all of the Nannies and Babysitters of society in Madison can choose to be frightened of their own shadow if they want to, but don't force your insecurities and fears on those of us who are responsible and can take care of ourselves.
    I aim to misbehave

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    Society has chosen to constantly blame the other guy for all the ills in the world. Parents assume no responsibility for the upbringing of their children. Cripe, parents don't assume responsibility for their own actions.

    My first child was born in 1963. That was about the time Dr. Spock was the absolute authority on child rearing. What a fraud. Thinking like his destroyed the dignity of being a parent. It also destroyed the responsibility.

    Children need discipline (not punishment-- training) to learn how to live with others. Trouble today is that the parents don't have that discipline. How can parents teach what they themselves don't have?

    Our populations moved to the city to be closer to better paying jobs. Even today, rural folk are being encouraged to move to town. The more they do so, the more liberal they get. The liberal road is a very wide easy road and very inviting. It is the road of being "protected" by Uncle Nannie. It's the road of NO PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

    It frustrates me very much to see the results of the "village" raising the child. I want Mom and Dad, a pair, to assume the rights of their child's rearing.

    Now, back on subject-- What about our guns? Once apon a time we understood the reasons for owning a gun. We understood there was no grocery at the end of our street, and no refrigeration. Living in the 'country' we knew our food was behind a tree or in a stream. We also knew there were enemies out there who would try to take from us what they refused to earn on their own.

    Second Amendment Sisters is all about SELF-DEFENSE. Yes, we are a pro 2A group but not just to show we have guns but to facilitate our own personal defense. Somehow we ALL need to help the public understand guns are NOT for violence. They are NOT for killing. They are for letting the 'bad guy' know we can and will defend ourselves.

    I've spoken to several gun owners, who for personal reasons, pretty much MUST carry. Living in WI that means they MUST OPEN CARRY. They don't want to. They hate even the idea of needing guns. These are peaceful people who would never aggravate another person. It's just not their shtick.

    We must somehow educated people to understand the police ARE NOT REQUIRED TO DEFEND us. They are required only to examine the scene after the fact. People have a false sense of security from years of government coddling. They don't learn until after it's too late.




  23. #23
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    True that, somewhere along the lines the thought process shifted. Anyone living in or near a larger city can see that. You are the minority, as it is IN ALMOST EVERY HIGH SCHOOL! The numbers are growing more and more, the people who have a passion for guns or self protection is diminishing for the most part. However we have had a small ressurgance. The problem will still grow... I was still in highschool a few years back, what they tried to "teach" me "social and political stuff" itactually made me back off their "curriculum" and strengthen my passion for firearms. It's a very different world out there these days, I can name one other gun owner who is a second ammendment supporter in our city of 21,000 besides those in the hunt club.



    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference β€” they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." ~ George Washington, First President of the United States



    DO you think you'll read anything like that in a highschool text book? LMAO The only thing you learn about firearms in most schools these days is that they are bad.... Schools like mine didhave policies that you cannot draw guns, wear anything to do with guns or have anything in your possession with firearms on it, even a book. O yeah by the way if there is that lone second ammenment supporter who actually gets up and speaks about it, you can expect 20 students and the teacher to provide an overwhelming amount of static right after your done.



    Ben












  24. #24
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    We've been in a 'revisionist' mode for decades. Hitler, Stalin, Lenin burned books and destroyed historical treasures; we re-write!

  25. #25
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    Does anyone out there have suggestions of how we can educate the general public about guns and the rational need for them, in a non-hysterical means?

    Someone said we can't do CCW until Open Carry is secured. Many states have CCW permits without being able to open carry.

    The ideal, of course, is Vermont.

    Since that is the rarity, how do we calmly teach people WHY the Second Amendment is so important? We'll turn people off and shoot ourselves in the foot if we come out seeming radical. We are already seen that way, we don't need to give the enemy more ammo!

    An article in the July 15th issue of "Gun Week" was very interesting. I disagree with much of what he wrote but J. Neil Schulman was spot on when he said we don't need some gun happy radical shooting Barack Obama. THAT would just about kill the Second Amendment.

    Our Founding Fathers were eloquent men who could insult some one and leave that person saying, "Thank you."

    We need to follow in their footsteps.

    Any ideas, folks?

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