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Meijer no longer OC friendly.

Michigander

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
imported post

Smoothsounds21 wrote:
I wonder how the police officer would react if someone came up to him while he was lawfully carrying, and tried to snatch his gun. I don't think he would be to pleased. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
That's just it. Imagine if we haphazardly tried to do to cops what they've done to us in some of the more extreme and criminal situations of police abuse. It WOULD result in shooting, guaranteed.

When you use your imagination to turn the table around on these things, it quickly and vividly becomes evident just how serious police abuses can and do get. This is something that police need to understand when they think we're out to piss them off. We're minding our own business, and we don't want them to assault us or otherwise violate our rights. It seems like a remarkably simple and reasonable thing to wish for.
 
smellslikemichigan

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
imported post

can anyone point me to the actual law that specifies that LEO can take your gun from you in a non-arrest situation? i'm not questioning that they can, i'd just like to see the wording and see if it specifies any particular circumstances. i can't find anything in the michigan legislature yet. and the MSP website just says they can without citing a source.
 
Michigander

Michigander

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Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
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Terry V Ohio specifies when a cop may search someone with reasonable suspicion that that person is illegally armed.

The SCOTUS has upheld that police may NOT initiate a Terry stop for potentially legal firearms possession. If it's not a Terry stop or an arrest, and you don't consent, they have NO rights to disarm you, and if they do so anyway, they will be committing numerous felonies. Remember what that wallet ID sleeve of mine says? It's an overly fair warning to make sure that police are notified of these very facts.




WARNING TO POLICE
Without probable cause, a Terry stop is illegal. Mere possession
of a firearm where possibly legal is not probable cause, and I do
not consent to any searches. If you are forcibly Terry stopping
or otherwise detaining me merely because of open carrying, you
are clearly violating some or all of the following Federal and
State laws: -MCL Section 750.411
-42 USC 1983 - Mi Const. art. 1 sec 6
-Title 18, Sec 242, USC -Terry v Ohio
-2, and 4 Amd. B.O.R. –JL v Florida (SCOTUS) 2000
Refer questions to Dean Greenblat, firearms attorney
-248 644 8760

They CAN disarm you in a traffic stop, because a traffic stop is within the scope of Terry. But they certainly can't disarm you merely for OCing. Doesn't work that way.
 
smellslikemichigan

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
imported post

I have just challenged the MSP through their contact link in regards to their statement that they can disarm me for no reason. Here's what I wrote:

While reading through the CPL FAQ section, I came across the following statement in the section regarding conduct during encounters with police:

"In certain circumstances, a law enforcement officer may take temporary possession of the weapon during interaction with the individual to ensure the safety of the officer and others. The police officer will return the pistol at the end of the stop unless the individual is being charged with a violation of the act or any other law that allows for the weapon to be seized."

I do not dispute that this may be true, however, most of the statements made on the FAQ page have a link that specifically directs the reader to the Michigan Legislature website where the exact law can be read. This statement does not have such a link. I have attempted to search for the reference on my own, but am unable to locate it. Any assistance you can give me in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Respectfully,
[smellslikemichigan]
 
E

emptypockets

Regular Member
Joined
May 21, 2009
Messages
44
Location
Midland, Michigan, USA
imported post

LaVere wrote
It IS my responsibility to retain my weapon. No disrespect to the original poster.
Click to expand...
I agree with this statement. Are any of you aware of where one might find out more retention techniques such as videos? I have found some interesting videos on youtube, but none that show holster retention.
 
O

office888

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
352
Location
Hartford, MI, ,
imported post

Smoothsounds21 wrote:
smellslikemichigan wrote:
office888 wrote:
Just curious, what type of holster were you using?

-Richard-
Click to expand...
an uncle mike's kydex paddle holster. even without a serpa style release, it took him a few tugs to get it loose. i'm not a fan of having to use a button to draw my gun and this holster is a good compromise.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but my first instinct if that were to happen to me is to knock his friggin teeth out with my elbow and take him down, and I would have every right. Don't think it would be going over to well for me if I was sneaked up on and disarmed in public. Since they are behind you you have no idea who it is and they have no right to do this to anyone especially without announcing them self as a police officer.
Click to expand...
I was going to avoid saying it, but yes, that's my same idea as well. While I'm open-carrying, my immediate thought before anything is "Retain my weapon, it won't do any good if I don't have it". I have a partner that I have practiced disarm-breaks with (not sure what you'd actually call them?) before. I think breaking his face with your elbow would have been more than justified. He didn't disclose himself as a LEO before attempting to disarm you.

Situational awareness IS key. I try to not let anyone walk behind me while I'm carrying. If I'm in a crowded area, I usually try to keep my right hand by my pocket, or cross my arms and rest my elbow on my 1911.

Definitely FOIA and fight this. Officer unjustly disarmed you, and created an unsafe situation for you, bystanders, and the officer himself.

In the mean time, I highly advise upgrading to a different holster. Kydex holsters are known to break at the paddle. If you insist on keeping a Kydex, switch to one with a strap retention.

Good luck.

-Richard-
 
smellslikemichigan

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
imported post

office888 wrote:
Smoothsounds21 wrote:
smellslikemichigan wrote:
office888 wrote:
Just curious, what type of holster were you using?

-Richard-
Click to expand...
an uncle mike's kydex paddle holster. even without a serpa style release, it took him a few tugs to get it loose. i'm not a fan of having to use a button to draw my gun and this holster is a good compromise.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but my first instinct if that were to happen to me is to knock his friggin teeth out with my elbow and take him down, and I would have every right. Don't think it would be going over to well for me if I was sneaked up on and disarmed in public. Since they are behind you you have no idea who it is and they have no right to do this to anyone especially without announcing them self as a police officer.
Click to expand...
I was going to avoid saying it, but yes, that's my same idea as well. While I'm open-carrying, my immediate thought before anything is "Retain my weapon, it won't do any good if I don't have it". I have a partner that I have practiced disarm-breaks with (not sure what you'd actually call them?) before. I think breaking his face with your elbow would have been more than justified. He didn't disclose himself as a LEO before attempting to disarm you.

Situational awareness IS key. I try to not let anyone walk behind me while I'm carrying. If I'm in a crowded area, I usually try to keep my right hand by my pocket, or cross my arms and rest my elbow on my 1911.

Definitely FOIA and fight this. Officer unjustly disarmed you, and created an unsafe situation for you, bystanders, and the officer himself.

In the mean time, I highly advise upgrading to a different holster. Kydex holsters are known to break at the paddle. If you insist on keeping a Kydex, switch to one with a strap retention.

Good luck.

-Richard-
Click to expand...
once i identified him and his sidekick as a LEO, my instinct to guard my weapon changed into an instinct to avoid going down in a blaze of glory in front of my daughter. it may have been only the difference of one second, but i did identify him, which saved both of us a lot of pain and hassle. my gun was not lost, it was allowed to be taken. i would never suggest that anyone who identifies their assailant as a LEO fight back. it's not good judgment.
 
O

office888

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
352
Location
Hartford, MI, ,
imported post

smellslikemichigan wrote:
office888 wrote:
Smoothsounds21 wrote:
smellslikemichigan wrote:
office888 wrote:
Just curious, what type of holster were you using?

-Richard-
Click to expand...
an uncle mike's kydex paddle holster. even without a serpa style release, it took him a few tugs to get it loose. i'm not a fan of having to use a button to draw my gun and this holster is a good compromise.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but my first instinct if that were to happen to me is to knock his friggin teeth out with my elbow and take him down, and I would have every right. Don't think it would be going over to well for me if I was sneaked up on and disarmed in public. Since they are behind you you have no idea who it is and they have no right to do this to anyone especially without announcing them self as a police officer.
Click to expand...
I was going to avoid saying it, but yes, that's my same idea as well. While I'm open-carrying, my immediate thought before anything is "Retain my weapon, it won't do any good if I don't have it". I have a partner that I have practiced disarm-breaks with (not sure what you'd actually call them?) before. I think breaking his face with your elbow would have been more than justified. He didn't disclose himself as a LEO before attempting to disarm you.

Situational awareness IS key. I try to not let anyone walk behind me while I'm carrying. If I'm in a crowded area, I usually try to keep my right hand by my pocket, or cross my arms and rest my elbow on my 1911.

Definitely FOIA and fight this. Officer unjustly disarmed you, and created an unsafe situation for you, bystanders, and the officer himself.

In the mean time, I highly advise upgrading to a different holster. Kydex holsters are known to break at the paddle. If you insist on keeping a Kydex, switch to one with a strap retention.

Good luck.

-Richard-
Click to expand...
once i identified him and his sidekick as a LEO, my instinct to guard my weapon changed into an instinct to avoid going down in a blaze of glory in front of my daughter. it may have been only the difference of one second, but i did identify him, which saved both of us a lot of pain and hassle. my gun was not lost, it was allowed to be taken. i would never suggest that anyone who identifies their assailant as a LEO fight back. it's not good judgment.
Click to expand...
If you recognized him, that's a different can of worms altogether. But until 100% identification is made and intent is discovered, then it's best to assume the worst.

I'd rather be in court, than shot to death with my own firearm.

After identification was made, all you can really do is vocally object. Any more, and they'll try to pin you with other charges.

-Richard-
 
O

office888

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
352
Location
Hartford, MI, ,
imported post

smellslikemichigan wrote:
believe me, there was plenty of vocal objection...
Click to expand...
Great!

That should be excellent material for your case, should you choose to get one going.

Be sure to let us know how it goes.

-Richard-
 
T

T Vance

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
2,482
Location
Not on this website, USA
imported post

Michigander wrote:
Smoothsounds21 wrote:
I'm sorry but my first instinct if that were to happen to me is to knock his friggin teeth out with my elbow and take him down, and I would have every right.
Click to expand...

While you are right, and in fact in a surprise disarming situation killing the officer might have been justified, it's exactly the opposite from the appropriate thing to do if you know you're dealing with a cop ......
Click to expand...
I think what Smoothsounds21 is saying is his INSTINCT would have caused him to do that before he even made eye contact with the person behind him. I agree with what he is saying. If someone snuck up me and did that my brain would probably tell me arm to make a fast thrust towards the person behind me. Of course an officer would probably never try this without having backup.
 
I

ijusam

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Messages
322
Location
Kent county, Delaware, USA
imported post

Michigander wrote:
Terry V Ohio specifies when a cop may search someone with reasonable suspicion that that person is illegally armed.

The SCOTUS has upheld that police may NOT initiate a Terry stop for potentially legal firearms possession. If it's not a Terry stop or an arrest, and you don't consent, they have NO rights to disarm you, and if they do so anyway, they will be committing numerous felonies. Remember what that wallet ID sleeve of mine says? It's an overly fair warning to make sure that police are notified of these very facts.




WARNING TO POLICE
Without probable cause, a Terry stop is illegal. Mere possession
of a firearm where possibly legal is not probable cause, and I do
not consent to any searches. If you are forcibly Terry stopping
or otherwise detaining me merely because of open carrying, you
are clearly violating some or all of the following Federal and
State laws: -MCL Section 750.411
-42 USC 1983 - Mi Const. art. 1 sec 6
-Title 18, Sec 242, USC -Terry v Ohio
-2, and 4 Amd. B.O.R. –JL v Florida (SCOTUS) 2000
Refer questions to Dean Greenblat, firearms attorney
-248 644 8760

They CAN disarm you in a traffic stop, because a traffic stop is within the scope of Terry. But they certainly can't disarm you merely for OCing. Doesn't work that way.
Click to expand...
shouldn't you change probable cause to reasonable suspicion?
 
smellslikemichigan

smellslikemichigan

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
2,307
Location
Troy, Michigan, USA
imported post

argh. i just spoke with meijer corporate at (616)453-6711. like a knucklehead, i did not get the name of the person (female) i spoke with. i was put on hold when i asked if there was a corporate policy regarding possessing firearms in meijer stores. when she came back on she said it was up to the individual stores and there was no corporate policy that addressed the situation. she said this was because differant cities and counties have differant laws regarding firearms. i was quick to correct her and let her know that the entire state (at least in michigan) was legal for open carry. she said i would still need to speak to the individual store to clarify their policy. what a pain. i guess i will be talking to the manager in marysville sometime this week.:banghead:
 
L

Lonewolf0714

New member
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
9
Location
Plainwell, Michigan, ,
imported post

Damn, thats too bad that happened, if someone were to sneak up behind me and attempt to take my firearm I would have no choice but to react aggresively due to the fact I dont know who it is. I guess the outcome would have been jail for me because im sure he would have said I was "resisting" even though he was unannounced. None the less this should be a positive gain for us due to the fact he was in the wrong, we need to find a way to communicate this on a Statewide level to LEO to remind them that an unannounced gun grab could result in dissaster because we do have the right to prevent our firearm from being gun grabbed by unknown individuals, The last thing we need is either party shooting the other. Needless to say, your non-agressive reaction to his act will help add to our success in educating LEO and the public, I cant wait to hear your outcome.
 
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