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Thread: Police ride-along in Kirkland

  1. #1
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    I recently went on a police ride-along in Kirkland. All in all I spent about 3.5 hours with an officer riding around the city responding to various calls. The officer is a local, and was courteous and professional throughout.

    However, there is one thing I am a little disturbed about, and I am trying to decide what to do about it.

    The officer was quite supportive of CC. So I then asked him what would happen in Kirkland if he were to see me walking around the city with my family, OCing. He said that since such a thing is not generally "socially acceptable" that would give him the "51% suspicion" required for a Terry Stop. More disturbingly, he mentioned that I might be facing him and other officers with their rifles drawn. He also seemed to be confused about preemption.

    That sounds harsh but the reality is that this part of the conversation was as friendly as the rest of the several hours of pleasant conversation. I know these guys can't be up on every nuance of every RCW and Kirkland code, and honestly I think I was able to get through to him a little with some gentle corrections in his understanding of the law.

    So I think this somehow is part of a departmental training issue... but I'm not exactly sure what to do about it. I am not looking to cause trouble for the officer but think there is an issue here that could use some kind of follow up for mutual benefit all around.

    Advice?

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    tai4de2 wrote:
    Advice?
    Did you give him a copy of the King County training bulletin on this? If not, I would suggest you do so and request that he distribute it though his chain of command.

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    One additional gun-related thing I took away from the experience...

    As we drove around the city, the officer was inputting license plate numbers of nearby cars into his in-car information system. That system has a voice response which would call out "concealed weapons permit" when the registered owner or the vehicle has one.

    Perhaps not surprisingly, I heard that phrase a lot over those few hours . There are a lot of us gun folks even among the sea of liberals that makes up the generally sorry state of the voting block around here.

    If this info is available to police in Kirkland I gotta believe it's a state-wide thing. We sometimes have topics here asking whether it's better to inform the officer if you are carrying during a traffic stop, etc... but chances are, he already knows! I don't think this is a big issue in WA.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    tai4de2 wrote:
    One additional gun-related thing I took away from the experience...

    As we drove around the city, the officer was inputting license plate numbers of nearby cars into his in-car information system. That system has a voice response which would call out "concealed weapons permit" when the registered owner or the vehicle has one.
    The voice response really said "concealed weapons permit"?

    Interesting, since there is no such thing in Washington anymore. :?

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    This is absolutley NOT statewide. CPL's are not tied to vehicle registrations in this state. And there is no way to associate a veh to a CPL holder.

    I am guessing they have programmed their system to pull the registered owner's driver license number off of the registration and then have automated a second query to run that person for a CPL.

    CPL status is not part of the DOL return on a vehicle plate. If they are doing that it is a local system (and the first I've heard of such a thing).

    The problem I see is if they rely on that for the info and then act according to what it says, they are setting themselves up for a surprise since not all vehicle registrations have driver license info attached. Not to mention that the drivers of vehicles are quite frequently not the registered owner.

    As to advising an officer on a traffic stop whether you are armed or not, I am of the belief that it is only a good idea if there is a chance the gun will be in view. Otherwise you may bring on unwanted and unwarranted attention if the officer is of the "wrong" mindset...

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    Sure it is...? My drivers license is on my CPL and the state knows my drivers license is linked to my state registered vehicle. It wouldn't surprise me if this was state wide. With the amount of information being shared between state agencies, it wouldn't surprise me if someone over at Department of Natural Resources was able to pull up stuff.

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    Good points all... I can't remember the exact phrase it sounded off with but there was definitely something going on to at least to try to give the officers a heads up as to whether there *might* be a weapon in the vehicle. Clearly it must be related to the drivers license.

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    G27 wrote:
    Sure it is...? My drivers license is on my CPL and the state knows my drivers license is linked to my state registered vehicle. It wouldn't surprise me if this was state wide. With the amount of information being shared between state agencies, it wouldn't surprise me if someone over at Department of Natural Resources was able to pull up stuff.
    Yes, I am sure. I do it every day. And all agencies in the state get the same return from WACIC. While access to the info is statewide, any automation in pulling the drivers info and then running it for CPL info is being set up at the agency level and yes, I imagine anyone at DNR with law enforcement powers has access as well.

    You run a plate, all you get from DOL vehicle registration. To get a CPL you need to either run a name (last name, first and middle initials along with DOB) or drivers license number.

    As I said, many vehicle registrations include the DL of the registered owner, but you have to take that and run it separately to get CPL info. I am sure computer systems could pull data from that field and format it for a second query automatically, but they aren't getting it straight from DOL by just running the plate.

    You can certainly get from "A" to "C", but you have to do "B" and if you run one of the plates without DL info, you will be stopped cold.

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    tai4de2 wrote:
    SNIP[The officer]said that since such a thing is not generally "socially acceptable" that would give him the "51% suspicion" required for a Terry Stop. More disturbingly, he mentioned that I might be facing him and other officers with their rifles drawn. He also seemed to be confused about preemption.

    Advice?
    Educate them fast. I would tend to slam hard, which I'll explain in just a moment.

    The Second Amendment issue is secondary.

    The primary issue is the 4th Amendment. The officer's attitude is a complete and utter violation of the4th Amendment. Period. I am not here talking in relation to guns at all. Its much broader than that.

    This officer all but confessed to habitually illegally detaining people without RAS.

    Case law (court opinions) is clear the officer must have reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) that a crime was, is, or is about to be committed before Terry Stopping someone.1 "Socially unacceptable" does not even come close to describing a crime about which an officer can be reasonably suspicious.

    I have long suspected some police routinely Terry Stop people because the officer is suspicious--without being able to say what crime he suspects. We have even had an LEO on this forum arguingin thedirection of justifying this.

    So, I recommend hammering hard on the 4th Amendment point. And broadly, not just in relation to the gun question. Its thelarger point here. If you need help, let me know.

    After slamming the 4A violation broadly, only then, further along in the document, would I suggest pointing out the 2A angle. There is a US Supreme Court opinion wherein the court expressly declined to remove4A protections just because a gun is involved, (Terry pat-downs and officer safety not included.)2



    1. There is extensive case law involvingRAS. It starts with Terry vs Ohio, the case for which Terry stops are named.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html

    Here is a quote from another US Supreme Ct case. Please note that where it says "emphasis added", the US Supreme Court is adding emphasis not in the opinion they are quoting, as opposed to me adding emphasis here.

    And in United States v. Place, 462 U. S. 696 (1983)...this Court stated that its prior opinions acknowledged police authority to stop a person "when the officer has reasonable, articulable suspicion that the person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity." Id. at 462 U. S. 702 (emphasis added). See also Michigan v. Summers, 452 U. S. 692, 452 U. S. 699, and n. 7 (1981). Indeed, Florida v. Royer itself suggests that certain seizures are justifiable under the Fourth Amendment even in the absence of probable cause "if there is articulable suspicion that a person has committed or is about to commit a crime." 460 U.S. at 460 U. S. 498... (emphasis added).

    http://supreme.justia.com/us/469/221/case.html

    2. The US Supreme Court case is Florida vs JL.

    ...A second major argument advanced by Florida and the United States as amicus is, in essence, that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception." Under such an exception, a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing. We decline to adopt this position...

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...9_0266_ZO.html



    For a quick rundown on reasonable suspicion, go to the link below and type into the search box: "inchoate suspicion" and "reasonable articulable suspicion". Then skim the cases that come up.

    http://supreme.justia.com/scripts/search
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    Yea I had a run in with Kirkland cops years ago. Some older guy tried to run me over twice at Safeway and then sucker punched me in the face. The first officers were taking a report in my favor, when they discovered the name of the person in the other party all of sudden I was being arrested for disturbing the peace and assault. So definately I can see that the officers attitude isn't far off from what I would expect.

    Please , please, educate them.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    Yea I had a run in with Kirkland cops years ago. Some older guy tried to run me over twice at Safeway and then sucker punched me in the face. The first officers were taking a report in my favor, when they discovered the name of the person in the other party all of sudden I was being arrested for disturbing the peace and assault. So definately I can see that the officers attitude isn't far off from what I would expect.

    Please , please, educate them.
    wut?


    they arrested you for being the victim of attempt assault w a deadly weapon and battery because of who the other person was?

    that makes no sense.

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    Yea well I have the arrest to prove it. Didn't make no sense to me either. But since I am not from Kirkland, and could only afford a public defender, I was SOL. I got most the charges dropped but was stuck with public menacing, and had to go to anger management class. I punched the back of the truck the second attempt when he tried to reverse over me. He then stopped and rolled down his window....I thought wtf now he wants to talk...I went over there and said 'what the hell is your problem' he sucker punched me in the nose his ring splitting open my nose. I grabbed his mirrorand his door frame his open window to steady myselfhe stepped on the gas and sent me flying actually almost hitting me with the truck again sent me flying across the pavement, I got a lot of road rash from that. He sped away. Leaving me dazed and ate up in the parking lot.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    wow.. so who was this other person.

    I dont get what would make someone so special that you got charged with the crime.

    did you try and appeal. and I would think if someone was trying to back over me... shots fired. and I am the victim from that point on. but thats just me.

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    I am sorry you had a bad experience like that in Kirkland.

    I totally get Citizen's point about 4th Amendment issues.

    Does anyone have recent experience with OC issues in Kirkland? The rest of the ride-along was very positive, and the officer talked at length about how careful they are so as to respect peoples' rights etc I think this might be a training issue, or perhaps he just reacted to what I said and it doesn't represent actual policy.

    So does anyone have recent experience with Kirkland PD with respect to carry issues?



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    I think in the end, police officers should be held responsible for thier actions. Just like you and me with our jobs, if we really screw something up, there is a good chance to get fired or seriously reprimanded. A Badge shouldnt give someone an immunity to the same law we all follow.... it's not 007 here.



    I got stopped once because my alternator was failing, headlights gre weak. A cop started his stop less than 500ft from my driveway so i simply sputtered there and let the car die. got out very polite to give the officer my info, he freeked out - made a BIG scene -Arrested me.... He found my carry permit, berated me and teased me about it, then searched my car, found my gun, ran the numbers, cleared it and left it in plain sighton the dash-board of my now unlocked car as i was taken to jail. - When I asked the cop to call my wife to secure the weapon he told me "That's not his problem now..." and refused to call her. (there is actually a 4-page synopsis of this - so much more happened in that stop, but these are a few little bites). The police officer lied on his report, when it went to court, they tried to supeena (spelling) my wife to testify against me. When she demanded a translator, they tried to scare her by saying she could be arrested too - she again demanded the translator... the prosecutor became visibly nervious and then dropped the case.....

    ..... nothing has happened to the officer, not even a "no no" ... so it seems many cops have a god complex and it's being reinforced by the lack of consequences for thier actions. It's a job, they should be same as you and me here.

    -- I will note, i USUALLY have really good exchanges with the officers durring a stop, polite, mannared, usually forgiving, so this is just a very minor few i think that cause the BIG problems.

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    Batousaii wrote:
    I think in the end, police officers should be held responsible for thier actions. Just like you and me with our jobs, if we really screw something up, there is a good chance to get fired or seriously reprimanded. A Badge shouldnt give someone an immunity to the same law we all follow.... it's not 007 here.



    I got stopped once because my alternator was failing, headlights gre weak. A cop started his stop less than 500ft from my driveway so i simply sputtered there and let the car die. got out very polite to give the officer my info, he freeked out - made a BIG scene -Arrested me.... He found my carry permit, berated me and teased me about it, then searched my car, found my gun, ran the numbers, cleared it and left it in plain sighton the dash-board of my now unlocked car as i was taken to jail. - When I asked the cop to call my wife to secure the weapon he told me "That's not his problem now..." and refused to call her. (there is actually a 4-page synopsis of this - so much more happened in that stop, but these are a few little bites). The police officer lied on his report, when it went to court, they tried to supeena (spelling) my wife to testify against me. When she demanded a translator, they tried to scare her by saying she could be arrested too - she again demanded the translator... the prosecutor became visibly nervious and then dropped the case.....

    ..... nothing has happened to the officer, not even a "no no" ... so it seems many cops have a god complex and it's being reinforced by the lack of consequences for thier actions. It's a job, they should be same as you and me here.

    -- I will note, i USUALLY have really good exchanges with the officers durring a stop, polite, mannared, usually forgiving, so this is just a very minor few i think that cause the BIG problems.

    Bat
    What department was this? Please tell me it wasn't in Kitsap Co.

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Batousaii wrote:
    I think in the end, police officers should be held responsible for thier actions. Just like you and me with our jobs, if we really screw something up, there is a good chance to get fired or seriously reprimanded. A Badge shouldnt give someone an immunity to the same law we all follow.... it's not 007 here.



    I got stopped once because my alternator was failing, headlights gre weak. A cop started his stop less than 500ft from my driveway so i simply sputtered there and let the car die. got out very polite to give the officer my info, he freeked out - made a BIG scene -Arrested me.... He found my carry permit, berated me and teased me about it, then searched my car, found my gun, ran the numbers, cleared it and left it in plain sighton the dash-board of my now unlocked car as i was taken to jail. - When I asked the cop to call my wife to secure the weapon he told me "That's not his problem now..." and refused to call her. (there is actually a 4-page synopsis of this - so much more happened in that stop, but these are a few little bites). The police officer lied on his report, when it went to court, they tried to supeena (spelling) my wife to testify against me. When she demanded a translator, they tried to scare her by saying she could be arrested too - she again demanded the translator... the prosecutor became visibly nervious and then dropped the case.....

    ..... nothing has happened to the officer, not even a "no no" ... so it seems many cops have a god complex and it's being reinforced by the lack of consequences for thier actions. It's a job, they should be same as you and me here.

    -- I will note, i USUALLY have really good exchanges with the officers durring a stop, polite, mannared, usually forgiving, so this is just a very minor few i think that cause the BIG problems.

    Bat
    He arrested you on what charge? :shock:

    It obviously had nothing to do with your car, as those are simply civil infractions, not crimes. Your permit cleared your possession of a firearm, so that's not a crime either.

    Your wife was given a subpoena to testify on what exactly? She wasn't there, what could she possibly have to say? Your spouse cant be forced to testify against you anyway.

    Am I missing something? Anyone? Bueller? :?

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    sean3686 wrote:
    wow.. so who was this other person.

    I dont get what would make someone so special that you got charged with the crime.

    did you try and appeal. and I would think if someone was trying to back over me... shots fired. and I am the victim from that point on. but thats just me.
    Yea I had a S&W 44 magnum under the seat of my van...I was never even tempted to use it ..... the situation happened so fast and by the time it was over...it was too late the threat was gone. I never mentioned I had the pistol to the cops I am so glad I didn't, they classified it a road rage because I was yelling obcenities at the driver as he drove off...according to thewitnesses. uh....what? Well I know better now...never co-operate and ask for your lawyer immediatley even when you think you are in the right.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    FMCDH wrote:
    Batousaii wrote:
    I think in the end, police officers should be held responsible for thier actions. Just like you and me with our jobs, if we really screw something up, there is a good chance to get fired or seriously reprimanded. A Badge shouldnt give someone an immunity to the same law we all follow.... it's not 007 here.



    I got stopped once because my alternator was failing, headlights gre weak. A cop started his stop less than 500ft from my driveway so i simply sputtered there and let the car die. got out very polite to give the officer my info, he freeked out - made a BIG scene -Arrested me.... He found my carry permit, berated me and teased me about it, then searched my car, found my gun, ran the numbers, cleared it and left it in plain sighton the dash-board of my now unlocked car as i was taken to jail. - When I asked the cop to call my wife to secure the weapon he told me "That's not his problem now..." and refused to call her. (there is actually a 4-page synopsis of this - so much more happened in that stop, but these are a few little bites). The police officer lied on his report, when it went to court, they tried to supeena (spelling) my wife to testify against me. When she demanded a translator, they tried to scare her by saying she could be arrested too - she again demanded the translator... the prosecutor became visibly nervious and then dropped the case.....

    ..... nothing has happened to the officer, not even a "no no" ... so it seems many cops have a god complex and it's being reinforced by the lack of consequences for thier actions. It's a job, they should be same as you and me here.

    -- I will note, i USUALLY have really good exchanges with the officers durring a stop, polite, mannared, usually forgiving, so this is just a very minor few i think that cause the BIG problems.

    Bat
    He arrested you on what charge? :shock:

    It obviously had nothing to do with your car, as those are simply civil infractions, not crimes. Your permit cleared your possession of a firearm, so that's not a crime either.

    Your wife was given a subpoena to testify on what exactly? She wasn't there, what could she possibly have to say? Your spouse cant be forced to testify against you anyway.

    Am I missing something? Anyone? Bueller? :?

    Heya,

    - Yeah, Dr.Fresh, it was Kitsap Co. And sorry for the confusion FMCDH, my wife was in the car with me as we were driving home from working in Seattle. And I was arrested for "failure to stop" even though that needs to be over 2,000 feet to be valid, part of why they dropped it. Officer tried to say in his report that my little tiny wife who was in tears had actually tried to physically seprate us. She grew up in Tokyo, go touch a tokyo cop agressivly and find out why she would NOT have touched a US cop...lol... Well, long story short, if she had took the stand it would have either ended up with her bieng charged, or the officer found in purgury since the report was submitted as testemony (please correct me if i am wrong there, i am not a lawyer). That would have been upto the jury = Me+wife vs. Officers word there. 2v1 he said she said.

    - Yeah the whole thing was profoundly insane, made no sense to me either, simply a young officer who was way to full of zeal. even screamed at my wife to shut up or he would arrest her too .. i will try to edit the whole synopsis and post it here if you all think it's ok ?? (i'll edit out names and some key elements to protect both my privacy and that of the officer).---- Lemme know if you guys think it's "OK" safe, proper or prudent to post the whole story here -- it is ... well.... shocking.



    Bat

    edited for a little extra info

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    Sounds like we need to become more familiar with the police in our towns.

    I have been planning to start a range event where we invite the police or sheriff from our local community to come and shoot with us as a group. Kind of a "get to know" all the law abiding responsible gun owners and OCers so that the police will feel more comfortable with us. Its harder to be a jerk to people you know and like, than it is to total strangers. It also shows we in no way want to provoke or just parade our guns around, but rather, we're just another group of people concerned with civil rights in our country.

    It would be nice to start some sort of annual OCer + LEO range & picnic event.

    What are everyone's thoughts on this?
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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    Sounds like we need to become more familiar with the police in our towns.

    I have been planning to start a range event where we invite the police or sheriff from our local community to come and shoot with us as a group. Kind of a "get to know" all the law abiding responsible gun owners and OCers so that the police will feel more comfortable with us. Its harder to be a jerk to people you know and like, than it is to total strangers. It also shows we in no way want to provoke or just parade our guns around, but rather, we're just another group of people concerned with civil rights in our country.

    It would be nice to start some sort of annual OCer + LEO range & picnic event.

    What are everyone's thoughts on this?
    100% YES and Excellent idea. I work alot, ALOT, but would definatly take a day for this. And i agree with the "getting to know eachother" formula. When i have to deal with an officer who is polite and understanding, i am always sure to ask thier name and give them a positive "Thank You" hoping that next time they might remember me and go "Oh, this guy's nice and friendly, cooperative too.." - at least thats the intention. Not that i intenetionally look to get stopped - lol -but itdoes happen in our modern world.



    pardon.. i am longer winded in type than in person ...lol



    Bat
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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    Sounds like we need to become more familiar with the police in our towns.

    I have been planning to start a range event where we invite the police or sheriff from our local community to come and shoot with us as a group. Kind of a "get to know" all the law abiding responsible gun owners and OCers so that the police will feel more comfortable with us. Its harder to be a jerk to people you know and like, than it is to total strangers. It also shows we in no way want to provoke or just parade our guns around, but rather, we're just another group of people concerned with civil rights in our country.

    It would be nice to start some sort of annual OCer + LEO range & picnic event.

    What are everyone's thoughts on this?
    Sounds excellent to me, falls under "why didn't I think of that??" Could be a great way to get the ball rolling on getting more LEOs too look at us as allies rather than adversaries.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Sorry to be a week late on this but I've been a bit distracted lately.

    I hate to be a spoiler, but to me this whole thread misses the point. I have done a number of ridealongs, first about 40 years ago, and they all have a common thread. Their original purpose from the viewpoint of the departments that host them is to offer their constituents an inside view of their operations. I have had varying experiences, most recently with the Whatcom County Sheriff about three months ago. This was the first experience since I began carrying, and during that ride the subject of personal firearms came up only briefly and that was when we happened to drive past the local range. I simply commented that I go to the range quite often, and there the subject dropped.

    I think that a ridealong is not the place to engage law enforcement in a debate on firearms or any other controversial subject. The purpose of the ridealong is to learn something about our local police agency, and about the individual officer who has been assigned to host us. In my last ride I had the good fortune to hit it off with the deputy very well, and he responded by inviting me to stay for his whole shift. Bringing up the subject of open carry would have thrown cold water on the evening and probably ended it at the standard four hours. As it was I had a lot of fun, saw a major arrest and even had a couple good laughs.

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