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Thread: Manassas Airport Open House

  1. #1
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    I'm a private pilot that flies out of Manassas airport and was at their open house today. I routinely carry there when I'm flying; sometimes open and sometimes concealed.

    I flew yesterday and carried concealed and I returned today for the open house and also concealed.

    As I was going into the terminal I noticed several "No Weapons" signs posted at the gates and doors. Since I've always understood that it is quite legal to carry at airports that do not have regularly scheduled airline flights I did not feel compelled to disarm and just went in and went about my business. I thought about converting to open carry, but didn't have a holster with me that allowed it. I had my .380 Kel-Tec in a pocket holster.

    There were several Manassas and State LEOs around because there was a LEO helicopter on displayand K-9 unit doing a demo. I was never approached and no one said anything. If you know what to look for you can just make out the print outlineof the grip in my hip pocket, but that is unlikely so I wasn't surprised.

    Since Manassas is a regional airport that is controlled by the city (at least it seems to be since itand the airport commissionare bothlisted under the city of Manassas web site) I don't think they can legally ban weapons. At least not legally carried (open or concealed) handguns.

    I planon calling the Airport Director and making an inquiryabout the signs and who posted them.



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    Under the Section 3 (Personal Conduct) of the airport Rules and Regulations (http://www.manassascity.org/index.aspx?NID=389) at states:

    3.05 FIREARMS AND WEAPONS

    The City of Manassas reserves the right to restrict the carrying of firearms and weapons by Airport security and other guards on the Airport.


    There is nothing in their Rules and Regs that mentions private citizens and firearms.

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    Campaign Veteran joeamt's Avatar
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    I believe under TSA regulations, ALL airport sterile areas are OFF LIMITS to OC/CC of loaded firearms...
    §1540.111Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.
    (a) On an individual's person or accessible property—prohibitions. Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, an individual may not have a weapon, explosive, or incendiary, on or about the individual's person or accessible property—

    (1) When performance has begun of the inspection of the individual's person or accessible property before entering a sterile area, or before boarding an aircraft for which screening is conducted under this subchapter;

    (2) When the individual is entering or in a sterile area; or

    (3) When the individual is attempting to board or onboard an aircraft for which screening is conducted under §§1544.201, 1546.201, or 1562.23 of this chapter.

    (b) On an individual's person or accessible property—permitted carriage of a weapon. Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply as to carriage of firearms and other weapons if the individual is one of the following:

    (1) Law enforcement personnel required to carry a firearm or other weapons while in the performance of law enforcement duty at the airport.

    (2) An individual authorized to carry a weapon in accordance with §§1544.219, 1544.221, 1544.223, 1546.211, or subpart B of part 1562 of this chapter.

    (3) An individual authorized to carry a weapon in a sterile area under a security program.

    (c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage or in baggage carried in an inaccessible cargo hold under §1562.23 of this chapter:

    (1) Any loaded firearm(s).

    (2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless—

    (i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;

    (ii) The firearm is unloaded;

    (iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and

    (iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

    (3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.

    (d) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm. Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing carriage of ammunition on aircraft.

    [67 FR 8353, Feb. 22, 2002, as amended at 67 FR 41639, June 19, 2002; 70 FR 41600, July 19, 2005; 71 FR 30507, May 26, 2006]

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    Campaign Veteran joeamt's Avatar
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    jegoodin wrote:
    Since I've always understood that it is quite legal to carry at airports that do not have regularly scheduled airline flights I did not feel compelled to disarm and just went in and went about my business.
    I am just curious: Where did you get your information? Is it from the Manassas Airport regs, or from somewhere else? I work as an aircraft mechanic, and the airport police:

    (reference http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/23232.html)

    has made it clear that "any" AOA is considered a "sterile" area per TSA, and firearms are prohibited by TSA for any other than police/security...

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    I too am a pilot and carry on a regular basis at airports with the exception of AIR CARRIER airports: http://www.vcdl.org/aircarrier.html

    I know the airport director at HEF and will write him to ask what's up.

    Thanks.


    Ed
    Carry On.

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    From: FlyboyEd@aol.com
    To: rwbendall@ci.manassas.va.us
    CC: citymanager@ci.manassas.va.us, jrivera@ci.manassas.va.us
    Sent: 6/20/2009 11:41:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: Firearms and Weapons Ban - Manassas Regional Airport


    Dear Mr. Bendall -

    As a local pilot and citizen I have issue with the newly placed "NO WEAPONS" signs at the terminal doors and gates. Virginia has 72 airports. Only 9 of these 72 airports are classified as "air carrier airports" and are thus affected by the gun ban in §18.2-287.01. Manassas is not one of the 9 airports. This means your ban is in violation of Virginia Code § 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    You may also note that July 1st 2009 is the effective date of House Bill 1655. Thisisthe bill requiring a court to award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any entity that prevails in an action challenging an ordinance, resolution, motion, or an administrative action that violates Virginia's preemption statute.

    The City of Norfolk (and others) have already had to award payments to gun owners that were legally carrying firearms in violation of their "ban(s)".

    I request the removal of those signs immediately.

    Thank you.

    Ed Levine
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    joeamt wrote:
    jegoodin wrote:
    Since I've always understood that it is quite legal to carry at airports that do not have regularly scheduled airline flights I did not feel compelled to disarm and just went in and went about my business.
    I am just curious: Where did you get your information?
    Virginia has 72 airports. Only 9 of these 72 airports are classified as "air carrier airports" and are thus affected by the gun ban in §18.2-287.01.

    An email from the Office of the Governor, dated June 3, 2004, identified the following as the "air carrier airports" in Virginia:





    Reagan National
    Arlington, VA

    Charlottesville Regional
    Charlottesville, VA

    Dulles International
    Chantilly, VA

    Lynchburg Municipal
    Lynchburg, VA

    Newport News . Williamsburg Regional
    Newport News, VA

    Norfolk International
    Norfolk, VA

    Richmond International
    Richmond, VA

    Roanoke Regional
    Roanoke, VA

    Shenandoah Valley Regional
    Staunton, VA
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I don't have any inside scoop on this subject, but to a layman just reading plain English words, and knowing a little bit about airports, it seems to me the important question is how do you go from a non-sterile airport environment to a sterile airport environment?

    Obviously for passengers on commercial airlines, you go through a security screening process. I live in a town with a small public airport. I can drive to the airport, get out of my car, walk onto the field, board and fly away on a private airplane, with barely more than a notice from anyone on the ground. (I have done this on a few occasions, but not as the pilot!)

    I am not aware of any measures in place to prevent someone from carrying a weapon onto an airplane from the hundreds of small airports around the country. The question seems to be, what process, if any, exists to "clear" the people who are landing at a commercial airport, who have come from a non-secured airport? How do they keep track of where you are coming from? Aren't all flight operations areas at major airports secure?

    TFred

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    You may also note that July 1st 2009 is the effective date of House Bill 1655. Thisisthe bill requiring a court to award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any entity that prevails in an action challenging an ordinance, resolution, motion, or an administrative action that violates Virginia's preemption statute.
    Ed, you should probably note that they changed the "shall" to "may" in the final version of the bill.

    TFred

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    what process, if any, exists to "clear" the people who are landing at a commercial airport, who have come from a non-secured airport? How do they keep track of where you are coming from?
    When you land at a "commercial airport" (air carrier) and you are on air-side (SIDA area).. you must be escorted into the termal (usually a general aviation terminal). Either way.. you can't just go climb the air stairs up to your Continental ailines flight. You would have to go into the main terminal, clear security like everyone else.

    Ed
    Carry On.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    joeamt wrote:
    jegoodin wrote:
    Since I've always understood that it is quite legal to carry at airports that do not have regularly scheduled airline flights I did not feel compelled to disarm and just went in and went about my business.
    I am just curious: Where did you get your information? Is it from the Manassas Airport regs, or from somewhere else? I work as an aircraft mechanic, and the airport police:

    (reference http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/23232.html)

    has made it clear that "any" AOA is considered a "sterile" area per TSA, and firearms are prohibited by TSA for any other than police/security...
    As I understand it, a sterile area is, by definition, an area "behind" security. No security, no "sterile" area.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    TFred wrote:
    what process, if any, exists to "clear" the people who are landing at a commercial airport, who have come from a non-secured airport? How do they keep track of where you are coming from?
    When you land at a "commercial airport" (air carrier) and you are on air-side (SIDA area).. you must be escorted into the termal (usually a general aviation terminal). Either way.. you can't just go climb the air stairs up to your Continental ailines flight. You would have to go into the main terminal, clear security like everyone else.

    Ed
    Wow, so they have folks just sitting around waiting to do this? Now I understand that such airports have ATC, and are likely ground controlled as well, so they know you are coming and where you go once you land. But once you park, what happens if you get out and start walking around before your "escort" arrives?

    TFred

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    As I understand it, a sterile area is, by definition, an area "behind" security. No security, no "sterile" area.
    Joe is right too.. the TSA trys to extend VERY long arms (not guns.. lol..)where they can.Some"general aviation" airports have been convinced that they must produce ID Badges (like you see at air carrier airports) for ALL personell, pilots, agents, flight instructors, line service, ,mx crews, catering, etc. etc. etc.Probably part of some stimulus plan.. expensive badges, laminators, computers, hole punchers, staff, scanners, badge holders, arm bands, lanyards, etc.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Yes, well the TSA is an agency of our Federal government. There must be something in the tax dollars we feed them, because all these agencies have traits predictably in common...


  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    Wow, so they have folks just sitting around waiting to do this? Now I understand that such airports have ATC, and are likely ground controlled as well, so they know you are coming and where you go once you land. But once you park, what happens if you get out and start walking around before your "escort" arrives?

    TFred
    Well.. once you get there they dont always know where you came from (unless you had a flight plan).. they might know you came from the N, E, S or West. Most FBO's have line service that will will meet your plane for parking instructions and then meet your plane so they can get your $6.00 per gallon fuel order. If there is no escort, there is really not an easy way to just walk over to the airside of a commercial terminal... they are usually at opposite ends of the field or on the other side of the runway, etc.

    Ed

    Carry On.

    Ed

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    joeamt wrote:
    (2) When the individual is entering or in a sterile area; or

    My interpretation has always been that if you are going through airport security (metal detector/xray and/or strip search) you are entering the "sterile area". At CHO for examplethere is a painted line on the tarmac area and signs posted between the general aviation area and the sterile area that announce you are not to cross it. If I'm landing atsuch an airport and I'm carrying thenI make sure I stick to the GA areas and pretty much walk a straight line from my plane to the GA terminal orFBO.

    With regard to DCA and IAD, since you referenced your previous thread,I read articles in the local papers several years ago about a decision that it was legal to carry at the two airports, on the grounds and in any buildings that did not have access directlyinto the serile areas. I guess at one time there was a rule that you couldn't have a weapon anywhere on airport property and someone in authority was interpreting that to include the Dulles Access Road. I recall reading the references cited in the articles at that time, perhaps the WMATA policies.



  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran Nelson_Muntz's Avatar
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    If it wasn't Sunday I'd got to Hoppy's OC for a Father's Day breakfast. Maybe next weekend.

  18. #18
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    jegoodin wrote:
    My interpretation has always been that if you are going through airport security (metal detector/xray and/or strip search) you are entering the "sterile area". At CHO for examplethere is a painted line on the tarmac area and signs posted between the general aviation area and the sterile area that announce you are not to cross it. If I'm landing atsuch an airport and I'm carrying thenI make sure I stick to the GA areas and pretty much walk a straight line from my plane to the GA terminal orFBO.

    With regard to DCA and IAD, since you referenced your previous thread,I read articles in the local papers several years ago about a decision that it was legal to carry at the two airports, on the grounds and in any buildings that did not have access directlyinto the serile areas. I guess at one time there was a rule that you couldn't have a weapon anywhere on airport property and someone in authority was interpreting that to include the Dulles Access Road. I recall reading the references cited in the articles at that time, perhaps the WMATA policies.
    jegoodin - You must be a carpenter! You hit that nail so sharply with one swing.

    MWAA (Metro Washington Airports Authority) for a long time had a "letter" out there that stated if you had a gun on the toll road or anywhere on airport property you would be arrested.. Here is that letter: http://www.vcdl.org/letters/mwaa.pdf

    I am a regular user of the toll road and and of Dulles airport and go to the airport twice a week. I wrote MWAA and received this newer letter (which VCDL has posted on their webpage): http://www.vcdl.org/letters/mwaa2008.pdf

    Article about guns in airports and TSA: http://gunowners.org/a081308.htm

    Related thread: http://www.thehighroad.us/archive/in.../t-102147.html

    Ed

    Carry On.

    Ed

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  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    From: FlyboyEd@aol.com
    To: rwbendall@ci.manassas.va.us
    CC: citymanager@ci.manassas.va.us, jrivera@ci.manassas.va.us
    Sent: 6/20/2009 11:41:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: Firearms and Weapons Ban - Manassas Regional Airport


    Dear Mr. Bendall -

    As a local pilot and citizen I have issue with the newly placed "NO WEAPONS" signs at the terminal doors and gates. Virginia has 72 airports. Only 9 of these 72 airports are classified as "air carrier airports" and are thus affected by the gun ban in §18.2-287.01. Manassas is not one of the 9 airports. This means your ban is in violation of Virginia Code § 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    You may also note that July 1st 2009 is the effective date of House Bill 1655. Thisisthe bill requiring a court to award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any entity that prevails in an action challenging an ordinance, resolution, motion, or an administrative action that violates Virginia's preemption statute.

    The City of Norfolk (and others) have already had to award payments to gun owners that were legally carrying firearms in violation of their "ban(s)".

    I request the removal of those signs immediately.

    Thank you.

    Ed Levine
    Mr. Levine,

    Mr. Bendall is out of town today and asked me to respond to your email. The sign was put up by event organizers, not the City, and has been removed today. Mr. Rivera has told the organizers they are not to put up such signs in the future. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.




    Martin R. Crim

    Smith and Davenport

    9253 Lee Avenue

    Manassas, Virginia20110

    (703) 368-8148

    fax (703) 368-7745

    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
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  20. #20
    Activist Member Wolf_shadow's Avatar
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    ed wrote:
    ed wrote:
    From: FlyboyEd@aol.com
    To: rwbendall@ci.manassas.va.us
    CC: citymanager@ci.manassas.va.us, jrivera@ci.manassas.va.us
    Sent: 6/20/2009 11:41:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time
    Subj: Firearms and Weapons Ban - Manassas Regional Airport


    Dear Mr. Bendall -

    As a local pilot and citizen I have issue with the newly placed "NO WEAPONS" signs at the terminal doors and gates. Virginia has 72 airports. Only 9 of these 72 airports are classified as "air carrier airports" and are thus affected by the gun ban in §18.2-287.01. Manassas is not one of the 9 airports. This means your ban is in violation of Virginia Code § 15.2-915 Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    You may also note that July 1st 2009 is the effective date of House Bill 1655. Thisisthe bill requiring a court to award reasonable attorney fees, expenses, and court costs to any entity that prevails in an action challenging an ordinance, resolution, motion, or an administrative action that violates Virginia's preemption statute.

    The City of Norfolk (and others) have already had to award payments to gun owners that were legally carrying firearms in violation of their "ban(s)".

    I request the removal of those signs immediately.

    Thank you.

    Ed Levine
    Mr. Levine,

    Mr. Bendall is out of town today and asked me to respond to your email. The sign was put up by event organizers, not the City, and has been removed today. Mr. Rivera has told the organizers they are not to put up such signs in the future. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.




    Martin R. Crim

    Smith and Davenport

    9253 Lee Avenue

    Manassas, Virginia20110

    (703) 368-8148

    fax (703) 368-7745
    Hum, who were the event organizers if not the Airport or City?
    Yes I carry a Bible and a Gun, your point.
    Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (meaning: "A defence of liberty against tyrants")
    Benjamin Franklin said, "A government that does not trust it's citizens with guns is a government that should not be trusted."



  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Wolf_shadow wrote:
    Hum, who were the event organizers if not the Airport or City?
    My "educated pilot" guess would be a combination of the FBO, flight schools, aircraft dealers, etc.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    I was at HEF this morning and I can report that the signs are down.



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    Ed shoots; he scores.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    Niiiiiice!





  25. #25
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ::::bowing:::
    Carry On.

    Ed

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