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Thread: Roanoke Times does it again

  1. #1
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    Fairly hostile editorial by the Staff.

    http://www.insidenova.com/isn/news/o...wn_away/37702/



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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Xeni wrote:
    Fairly hostile editorial by the Staff.

    http://www.insidenova.com/isn/news/o...wn_away/37702/
    I am not registering to give them all my personal info. Whoever wrote that is an idiot.. they have no idea.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Xeni wrote:
    Fairly hostile editorial by the Staff.

    http://www.insidenova.com/isn/news/o...wn_away/37702/

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Whoever wrote it is an idiot....BUT, if I ever meet David Yount, I'm gonna clean his clock.

    One moron like him gives more publicity than a thousand responsible people.:X

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    Whoever wrote it is an idiot....BUT, if I ever meet David Yount, I'm gonna clean his clock.

    One moron like him gives more publicity than a thousand responsible people.:X
    Dont think that I didnt check my records to make sure he wasn't one of mine!

    +1 on the clock cleaning
    James Reynolds

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    http://www.roanoke.com/columnists/casey/wb/209155

    Get ready for guns in bars

    By Dan Casey

    It's far too early to take a reasonable guess at who will prevail in November's likely gubernatorial slugfest between state Sen. Creigh Deeds and former Attorney General Bob McDonnell.
    But one probable victor is the frightening guns-in-bars legislation that has passed the Virginia House and Senate for the past two years and was sensibly vetoed each time by Gov. Tim Kaine.
    Both Deeds, a Bath County Democrat who voted for the bill, and McDonnell, a Henrico County Republican, are on the record in favor of allowing concealed weapons in bars, by permit holders, provided those handgun hiders do not drink alcohol.
    To McDonnell, it's a constitutional issue. If elected, he would sign it into law.
    "Concealed carry permit holders have to pass rigorous background checks prior to gaining a permit. These are law-abiding individuals exercising their Second Amendment right to bear arms," says Tucker Martin, a McDonnell campaign spokesman.
    Deeds stands by his vote earlier this year. If elected, he would sign the bill Kaine vetoed, his campaign said.
    "Creigh Deeds supports the Second Amendment and Virginia's current laws, but believes that guns and alcohol don't mix," Deeds spokesman Jared Leopold says. "In the state Senate, Creigh Deeds voted to prevent individuals carrying concealed weapons from drinking alcohol."
    That sounds like a fancy way around the fact that the senator voted to remove the current prohibition on concealed weapons in bars.
    I don't quite understand why anyone would want to carry a concealed weapon into a bar. Open carry/no drinking already is allowed, though restaurateurs often ask those people to leave. (Maybe that's why gun owners want to hide them.)
    Larry Pratt, president of the Northern Virginia-based Gun Owners of America, says it's because of the "element of surprise."
    "When you're carrying concealed, you retain the element of surprise much more than if you're carrying openly," Pratt told me. And that would give you an edge over any attacker, he added.
    It's precisely that prospect that frightens the dickens out of two well-known and experienced Roanoke-area barkeeps.
    One is Mike Flanary, co-owner of The Cornerstone Bar & Grill on the city market and Flanary's Irish Pub on Jefferson Street downtown. He considers himself a liberal.
    The other is Chip Moore, owner of the Brambleton Deli and Annie Moore's Irish Pub, both in Southwest Roanoke County. He calls himself a conservative.
    "Can you tell me one good thing that could happen from someone who carried a concealed weapon into a bar? I can't think of one good thing," Flanary told me. "The fact that they would allow it is mind-boggling."
    Moore asked, "What are they trying to accomplish by having people with concealed weapons in bars? ... I'm not for stricter guns laws -- but I'm not crazy, either."
    Each raised interesting points on the so-far-failed legislation's fine print:
    n Absent airport-style metal detectors at bars, the proviso that pistol-hiding diners not drink is laughably unenforceable.
    n Bad judgment and alcohol already are regular companions without guns in the mix. "That upstanding person who has the concealed carry permit is not the same person after 10 beers," Moore observed.
    n Patrons who are too frightened to enter an establishment without a concealed gun might be better off staying out of it in the first place.
    They also both questioned whether an entrance sign barring concealed weapons would deter people from bringing them in.
    One reason both candidates would favor guns in bars lies in the gun lobby that has fought for this law, its deep constituency in Virginia and the unquestionable influence it wields over many Virginia politicians.
    Another is this: As of May there were roughly 189,000 active concealed-carry permit holders in Virginia.
    If November's contest is anything like their historically close 2005 race for attorney general, neither Deeds nor McDonnell can risk alienating any voters.
    That's why it's clear concealed-guns-in-bars in Virginia looks like a pretty good bet for 2010, just like it was this year in neighboring Tennessee, where it recently passed.
    So next year, with burning cigarettes banned from most restaurants, perhaps the most likely kind of bar smoke we'll see is smoldering wisps that emerge from hot pistol barrels after some permit-holding, gun-hiding patrons get into a face-off.
    That is insanity, Virginia.


  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran joeamt's Avatar
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    Here is a perfect reason why I carry at the resteraunt and everywhere else I go:

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...g_N.htm?csp=34

    ALBUQUERQUE, New Mexico (AP) — Police in Albuquerque say an employee has been killed after several armed suspects attempted a takeover-style robbery at a packed restaurant.
    Police spokeswoman Officer Nadine Hamby says "multiple" armed suspects rushed the Denny's Restaurant in northwest Albuquerque at about 9:30 a.m. Saturday. As many as 100 people were inside.

    A female restaurant employee was shot and killed.

    Two people have been detained, but Hamby says it is unclear if they are robbery suspects. A police tactical team has surrounded a northwest Albuquerque home where other possible suspects are believed to have fled.

    Hamby says detectives have more than 60 witnesses to interview, and not all saw the same thing. Witnesses reported seeing from two to six suspects.

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    Here we go again.

    They cover all of their usual basics here, and I mean all of them.

    Lets see what they covered:

    All gun owners are nut-cases who pull out their gun and go on a shooting rampage once they going into any establishment with an ABC license.

    All concealed carry holders enjoy at least 10 beers while conceal carrying in any such business. At least 10, every time..... and then go on a shooting rampage.

    The full intent of this bill is we conceal carry holders can carry into bars. Not a Ruby Tuesday or Red Lobster, it's only aim is to allow carry into bars (it doesn't matter that bars are illegal!).

    What kind of person needs to carry a gun anyways? I mean, that's... that's .... just ridiculous!

    Without metal detectors you cannot keep conceal carry holders from drinking, it would be unenforceable! It doesn't matter that the current prohibition on carrying is unenforceable too!

    Obviously if you are too scared to enter a business without your gun you are a paranoid mental case who just shouldn't come in anyways.

    ...

    Yep.... I think they covered all of their favorite basics.....

    This article is the most unintelligent, biased, non-researched, flatly-false piece of trash I have read this year. And that, my friends, is and understatement.



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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Anyone from Roanoke area gonna write Dan Casey?
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Open carry/no drinking already is allowed, though restaurateurs often ask those people to leave.
    Open carry/DRINKING is allowed. It is only illegal to be intoxicated.

    A fine line, yes I know, and most carriers of sidearms will agree that it is in our best interests to remain sober so as not to draw negative attention to our rights, but still not illegal to have a drink while OC.

    Unless there's a cite I missed in the code... I do that sometimes.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    Nope, I think you got it right.

    ~ Boyd

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    Nope, I think you got it right.

    ~ Boyd
    That's right...but I happen to agree that alcohol and guns don't mix. I think most if not all of us feel that way. Why do something in a restaurant, you wouldn't do at home. Just drink soft drinks with your meal.

    Second reason is it only takes one idiot like the duck shooter, to cast a big shadow over the rest of us.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    I just sent Mr. Casey a short email, not that I think it will do much good.
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    Second reason is it only takes one idiot like the duck shooter, to cast a big shadow over the rest of us.
    But we need to separate acting stupid from needing a law to tell you not to act stupid. What law, had it been in effect when this incident happened, would have prevented it?

    Laws can't prevent stupid.

    ~ Boyd

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    Absent airport-style metal detectors at bars, the proviso that pistol-hiding diners not drink is laughably unenforceable.


    Is anyone else catching the logical disconnect here?



    "A law allowing CC in bars as long as they don't drink is silly because they'll just drink anyway! That's why we need a law to keep them out of bars in the first place!"



    Uh...WHA?

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    Phssthpok wrote:
    Is anyone else catching the logical disconnect here?
    Everyone but the libs. They are ruled by emotion, not reason.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Here's the problem with these people. They move into our state and don't leave their mental baggage at the gate before entering. So they take up residence and still hold their "foreign" beliefs which run counter to Virginians. Some get into positions of power (governors, representatives, senators, newspaper editors) where they can not only influence but change that which has been a hallmark of Virginia liberty for generations. Now I don't mind someone who comes here from somewhere else who adopts our customs and ways as their own. What I don't like is someone who migrates here and then goes about trying to change things that are not broken.. that work and work well. They are trying to have what they left in our state. If it's gun control or removal of carry rights or whatever, that is NOT what we want here in Virginia.

    Change is inevitable and is going to occur regardless of what we may think about it. But the kind of change I am speaking of here is that which alters our way of life here in Virginia to the point where it no longer resembles Virginia. If I was a native of Massachusetts, I would think the same way about my state, and rightly so.

    Look what has happened to Florida. There's a saying there amongst the native people of the state. "If you want to go south, go north".

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

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    Can someone give me a list of bars in Virginia?

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    I expect a response from him like

    "I AM A LIBERAL INTELLECTUAL YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH ME"


  20. #20
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    Can someone give me a list of bars in Virginia?
    Is this not a distinction without a difference? Yeah, all of us here know that, technically, there's no such thing as a "bar" in Virginia. But if you go up to the majority of the folks who live in Virginia and ask them if Virginia has any bars, they'll probably look at you as if you're insane.

    If you get away from the legal technicalities of Virginia law, we clearly have bars in Virginia. They're just required to also serve food (a certain percentage of their income must come from food sales). Look at it rationally, and there are plenty of bars in Virginia. Just because the ABC calls them restaurants doesn't mean they're not bars by a "common man" definition.

    And those are the places that they're talking about in editorials like this. Denying their existence won't get us very far. These aren't places where most of us are talking about carrying, openly or concealed. So in the end, we in the gun rights community are talking about carrying in one type of business, where the antis are talking about guns in a completely different type of business, even though they share the same type of liquor license.

    I don't know the answer, but them talking about one type of establishment while we talk about a different type of establishment isn't going to get us anywhere. I think we need to change our argument, but I haven't figgered out how to do that.

    ~ Boyd

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    TexasNative wrote:
    hsmith wrote:
    Can someone give me a list of bars in Virginia?
    Is this not a distinction without a difference? Yeah, all of us here know that, technically, there's no such thing as a "bar" in Virginia. But if you go up to the majority of the folks who live in Virginia and ask them if Virginia has any bars, they'll probably look at you as if you're insane.

    If you get away from the legal technicalities of Virginia law, we clearly have bars in Virginia. They're just required to also serve food (a certain percentage of their income must come from food sales). Look at it rationally, and there are plenty of bars in Virginia. Just because the ABC calls them restaurants doesn't mean they're not bars by a "common man" definition.

    And those are the places that they're talking about in editorials like this. Denying their existence won't get us very far. These aren't places where most of us are talking about carrying, openly or concealed. So in the end, we in the gun rights community are talking about carrying in one type of business, where the antis are talking about guns in a completely different type of business, even though they share the same type of liquor license.

    I don't know the answer, but them talking about one type of establishment while we talk about a different type of establishment isn't going to get us anywhere. I think we need to change our argument, but I haven't figgered out how to do that.

    ~ Boyd
    Then, if they really care about this "gun in bars" argument, they should be proposing the Legislature creates a "bar" distinction, disallowing firearms in true bars, and allowing firearms in restaurants. (If that is right or wrong with firearm freedom is another argument)

    There is not one place I go out to eat that is a "bar" in any sense, yes - they may have a bar that sells liquor, but the establishment is a restaurant through and through.

    My favorite place to eat has a license to sell alcohol, but they have no "bar" area at all, they only serve wine. So, I don't see how it is a "bar" in any liberal sense of thinking.

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    We need to be sure that when discussing this, every time they say "bar", we say "restaurant". As with the "hi-cap" fallacy, we can't let them establish the language.

  23. #23
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    Taking things a bit backwards (which is normal for me):

    hsmith wrote:
    This is exactly what I'm talking about in my earlier post. That's not the place that the anti-gun folks are talking about, trying to scare people about. So, even though they may be imprecise in their anti-gun argument, and the lawmakers may be drawing their lines poorly for our purposes, we need to advance the discussion by engaging them on what they're talking about, not by talking about something completely different.

    So that gets us into your earlier point:

    hsmith
    wrote:
    Then, if they really care about this "gun in bars" argument, they should be proposing the Legislature creates a "bar" distinction, disallowing firearms in true bars, and allowing firearms in restaurants. (If that is right or wrong with firearm freedom is another argument).
    Why them? Why aren't we in the gun-rights community proposing legislation that distinguishes bars from restaurants? One of the problems with that approach, as you alluded, is that we're effectively saying we agree with not allowing guns in bars, because now we've separated them from restaurants. I don't think that's the way we want to go, but I could be wrong.

    I'm no more dangerous with a gun in a bar than in a restaurant, a bank, a Walmart, a park, or anywhere else. I have the feeling that's true for almost all of the law-abiding gun carriers in Virginia. We're not a danger to our fellow law-abiding citizens no matter where we go.

    We feel that the law should reflect that reality. But having one argument from one side, and a different argument from the other side, neither one addressing the other's concerns, will just keep us spinning our wheels.

    ~ Boyd

    ETA: My apologies to everyone for trying to stretch the capabilities of the forum software to a place it obviously does not want to go.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    Can someone give me a list of bars in Virginia?
    Sure that easy. Here the unabridged list effective 1/1/09.

    "



    "

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    TexasNative wrote:
    -snip-
    I guess the real question is, if we get another antigun governor, do we still "stick to our guns" and get nowhere with restaurant carry? Or do we augment the argument so we can push forward (while some, including me, would argue we are holding ourselves back if we distinguished bars from restaurants).

    I mean, we all know the facts and how things actually are, no blood running in the streets, ect. But, do we acknowledge or ignore reality in order to move ahead? I'd argue that if we could increase some of our freedoms, we are moving ahead, even if we are still lacking a few. Is it better to "move the chains" or leave them in the same place?

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