Roanoke Times does it again

hsmith · Jun 21, 2009

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TexasNative wrote:

hsmith wrote:

Can someone give me a list of bars in Virginia?

Click to expand...

Is this not a distinction without a difference? Yeah, all of us here know that, technically, there's no such thing as a "bar" in Virginia. But if you go up to the majority of the folks who live in Virginia and ask them if Virginia has any bars, they'll probably look at you as if you're insane.

If you get away from the legal technicalities of Virginia law, we clearly have bars in Virginia. They're just required to also serve food (a certain percentage of their income must come from food sales). Look at it rationally, and there are plenty of bars in Virginia. Just because the ABC calls them restaurants doesn't mean they're not bars by a "common man" definition.

And those are the places that they're talking about in editorials like this. Denying their existence won't get us very far. These aren't places where most of us are talking about carrying, openly or concealed. So in the end, we in the gun rights community are talking about carrying in one type of business, where the antis are talking about guns in a completely different type of business, even though they share the same type of liquor license.

I don't know the answer, but them talking about one type of establishment while we talk about a different type of establishment isn't going to get us anywhere. I think we need to change our argument, but I haven't figgered out how to do that.

~ Boyd

Then, if they really care about this "gun in bars" argument, they should be proposing the Legislature creates a "bar" distinction, disallowing firearms in true bars, and allowing firearms in restaurants. (If that is right or wrong with firearm freedom is another argument)

There is not one place I go out to eat that is a "bar" in any sense, yes - they may have a bar that sells liquor, but the establishment is a restaurant through and through.

My favorite place to eat has a license to sell alcohol, but they have no "bar" area at all, they only serve wine. So, I don't see how it is a "bar" in any liberal sense of thinking.

zoom6zoom · Jun 21, 2009

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We need to be sure that when discussing this, every time they say "bar", we say "restaurant". As with the "hi-cap" fallacy, we can't let them establish the language.

TexasNative · Jun 21, 2009

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Taking things a bit backwards (which is normal for me):

hsmith wrote:

My favorite place to eat has a license to sell alcohol, but they have no "bar" area at all, they only serve wine. So, I don't see how it is a "bar" in any liberal sense of thinking.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in my earlier post. That's not the place that the anti-gun folks are talking about, trying to scare people about. So, even though they may be imprecise in their anti-gun argument, and the lawmakers may be drawing their lines poorly for our purposes, we need to advance the discussion by engaging them on what they're talking about, not by talking about something completely different.

So that gets us into your earlier point:

hsmith wrote:

Then, if they really care about this "gun in bars" argument, they should be proposing the Legislature creates a "bar" distinction, disallowing firearms in true bars, and allowing firearms in restaurants. (If that is right or wrong with firearm freedom is another argument).

Why them? Why aren't we in the gun-rights community proposing legislation that distinguishes bars from restaurants? One of the problems with that approach, as you alluded, is that we're effectively saying we agree with not allowing guns in bars, because now we've separated them from restaurants. I don't think that's the way we want to go, but I could be wrong.

I'm no more dangerous with a gun in a bar than in a restaurant, a bank, a Walmart, a park, or anywhere else. I have the feeling that's true for almost all of the law-abiding gun carriers in Virginia. We're not a danger to our fellow law-abiding citizens no matter where we go.

We feel that the law should reflect that reality. But having one argument from one side, and a different argument from the other side, neither one addressing the other's concerns, will just keep us spinning our wheels.

~ Boyd

ETA: My apologies to everyone for trying to stretch the capabilities of the forum software to a place it obviously does not want to go.

Grapeshot · Jun 21, 2009

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hsmith wrote:

Can someone give me a list of bars in Virginia?

Sure that easy. Here the unabridged list effective 1/1/09.

"

" :lol:

Yata hey

hsmith · Jun 21, 2009

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TexasNative wrote:

-snip-

I guess the real question is, if we get another antigun governor, do we still "stick to our guns" and get nowhere with restaurant carry? Or do we augment the argument so we can push forward (while some, including me, would argue we are holding ourselves back if we distinguished bars from restaurants).

I mean, we all know the facts and how things actually are, no blood running in the streets, ect. But, do we acknowledge or ignore reality in order to move ahead? I'd argue that if we could increase some of our freedoms, we are moving ahead, even if we are still lacking a few. Is it better to "move the chains" or leave them in the same place?

virginiatuck · Jun 21, 2009

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wylde007 wrote:

Open carry/no drinking already is allowed, though restaurateurs often ask those people to leave.

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Open carry/DRINKING is allowed. It is only illegal to be intoxicated.

To my knowledge, it is not illegal to be intoxicated while openly carrying a firearm. Only Subsection J1 prohibits concealed carry while "under the influence of alcohol." And "under the influence of alcohol" in this section has the same meaning as in the motor vehicle code, Title 46.2.

If one may carry concealed at a restaurant, such as one of the exceptions to Subsection J3, they may consume alcohol; though may not become "under the influence" per J1. Anywhere that a person may carry a concealed handgun, he may consume alcohol, but not fall "under the influence."

If one openly carries wherever he may lawfully be, he would not violate any firearm laws by becoming intoxicated, under the influence, sloshed, konked, tipsy, buzzed, bean-bagged, stoned, or even passed-out. What brought you to that state may not have been legal in the first place, but there is still a chance of doing something else that is illegal while intoxicated. For instance, everyone who goes "over the legal limit" in a public place such as a restaurant, whether carrying a firearm or not, is susceptible to being charged with "intoxication in public." § 18.2-388. Profane swearing and intoxication in public; penalty; transportation of public inebriates to detoxification center.

wylde007 · Jun 21, 2009

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virginiatuck wrote:

To my knowledge, it is not illegal to be intoxicated while openly carrying a firearm.

I may have been thinking of:

§ 18.2-285. Hunting with firearms while under influence of intoxicant or narcotic drug; penalty.

and misapplied it.

Phssthpok · Jun 21, 2009

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OK...now I'm a bit confused.

As I understand it (from reading this thread) it's currently OK to imbibe adult beverages while openly carrying even to the point of it affecting your sobriety (a little), but if you are carrying concealed you can't touch a drop, correct?

So... what happens if you enter an establishment CCing with zero intent to imbibe, but then some friends show up and you all decide to hang out for quite a bit longer and eat a full-on meal. It would seem, at this point, that one could simply flip their jacket back/tuck their shirt/do 'whatever' to transition from CC to OC and then be able to legally imbibe an adult beverage with their meal (wisdom of imbibing while carrying aside), yes? Say.... an ice cold Pilsner to wash down that perfectly grilled slab of dead animal, or maybe a nice Chianti to go with your liver and fava beans...thupthupthupthupthup!

So... tell me... exactly HOW does this law effectively change the staus quo re: drinking while carrying?

It doesn't. In fact I would think the lib-sheeple would be in favor of this law as it allows carriers to keep their arms out-of-sight-out-of-mind so they can 'feel' safe. :uhoh:

ProShooter · Jun 21, 2009

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Phssthpok wrote:

OK...now I'm a bit confused.

As I understand it (from reading this thread) it's currently OK to imbibe adult beverages while openly carrying even to the point of it affecting your sobriety (a little), but if you are carrying concealed you can't touch a drop, correct?

So... what happens if you enter an establishment CCing with zero intent to imbibe, but then some friends show up and you all decide to hang out for quite a bit longer and eat a full-on meal. It would seem, at this point, that one could simply flip their jacket back/tuck their shirt/do 'whatever' to transition from CC to OC and then be able to legally imbibe an adult beverage with their meal (wisdom of imbibing while carrying aside), yes? Say.... an ice cold Pilsner to wash down that perfectly grilled slab of dead animal, or maybe a nice Chianti to go with your liver and fava beans...thupthupthupthupthup!

So... tell me... exactly HOW does this law effectively change the staus quo re: drinking while carrying?

It doesn't. In fact I would think the lib-sheeple would be in favor of this law as it allows carriers to keep their arms out-of-sight-out-of-mind so they can 'feel' safe. :uhoh:

If you entered the ABC licensed restaurant and were carrying concealed, you were in violation at that point..

Grapeshot · Jun 21, 2009

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ProShooter wrote:

Phssthpok wrote:

snip.........
So... tell me... exactly HOW does this law effectively change the staus quo re: drinking while carrying?

It doesn't. In fact I would think the lib-sheeple would be in favor of this law as it allows carriers to keep their arms out-of-sight-out-of-mind so they can 'feel' safe. :uhoh:

Click to expand...

If you entered the ABC licensed restaurant and were carrying concealed, you were in violation at that point..

To those that haven't noticed, this is the Va. forum section and it is a violation of the law to CC in an establishment that serves alcohol.

It may be legal to indulge while OCing (many say bad form though) but CC is out of the question presently for the law abiding citizen.

Yata hey

hsmith · Jun 21, 2009

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Grapeshot wrote:

ProShooter wrote:

Phssthpok wrote:

snip.........
So... tell me... exactly HOW does this law effectively change the staus quo re: drinking while carrying?

It doesn't. In fact I would think the lib-sheeple would be in favor of this law as it allows carriers to keep their arms out-of-sight-out-of-mind so they can 'feel' safe. :uhoh:

Click to expand...

If you entered the ABC licensed restaurant and were carrying concealed, you were in violation at that point..

Click to expand...

To those that haven't noticed, this is the Va. forum section and it is a violation of the law to CC in an establishment that serves alcohol.

It may be legal to indulge while OCing (many say bad form though) but CC is out of the question presently for the law abiding citizen.

Yata hey

There is no law against drinking at home then going out and CC'ing.

The law says "under the influence" - but that is a sliding scale, sadly.

rkbaguy · Jun 21, 2009

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Comment on the editorial piece on the author's blog at http://blogs.roanoke.com/rtblogs/dancasey/2009/06/21/sundays-column-guns-bars-virginia-insanity/

Task Force 16 · Jun 21, 2009

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Grapeshot wrote:

ProShooter wrote:

Phssthpok wrote:

snip.........
So... tell me... exactly HOW does this law effectively change the staus quo re: drinking while carrying?

It doesn't. In fact I would think the lib-sheeple would be in favor of this law as it allows carriers to keep their arms out-of-sight-out-of-mind so they can 'feel' safe. :uhoh:

Click to expand...

If you entered the ABC licensed restaurant and were carrying concealed, you were in violation at that point..

Click to expand...

To those that haven't noticed, this is the Va. forum section and it is a violation of the law to CC in an establishment that serves alcohol.

It may be legal to indulge while OCing (many say bad form though) but CC is out of the question presently for the law abiding citizen.

Yata hey

The more impotant question here is, How many times has an armed patron started a gun fight in an establishment that serves adult livations, after indulging in consumption of such beverages? Talking about those in legal posession of a firearm and not criminals.

Grapeshot · Jun 21, 2009

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Task Force 16 wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

ProShooter wrote:

Phssthpok wrote:

snip.........
So... tell me... exactly HOW does this law effectively change the staus quo re: drinking while carrying?

It doesn't. In fact I would think the lib-sheeple would be in favor of this law as it allows carriers to keep their arms out-of-sight-out-of-mind so they can 'feel' safe. :uhoh:

Click to expand...

If you entered the ABC licensed restaurant and were carrying concealed, you were in violation at that point..

Click to expand...

To those that haven't noticed, this is the Va. forum section and it is a violation of the law to CC in an establishment that serves alcohol.

It may be legal to indulge while OCing (many say bad form though) but CC is out of the question presently for the law abiding citizen.

Yata hey

Click to expand...

The more impotant question here is, How many times has an armed patron started a gun fight in an establishment that serves adult livations, after indulging in consumption of such beverages? Talking about those in legal posession of a firearm and not criminals.

Zip.0000001% + or - one.

Yata hey

skidmark · Jun 21, 2009

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We are all going to get hurt stepping on each other's cranks and sacred cows if we allow the debate to degenerate into "bar" vs. "restaurant/club" or "intoxicated" vs. "under the influence".

This editorial, like almost every other one decrying the possibility of concealed guns being carried about, focuses on the fears of the author and his supporters. One of the things we all should have learned over the course of fighting the good fight is that we are facing folks who are projecting their own fears onto us. They are afraid that they will get into fights if they strap on a handgun, because they fear they have so little self control that they might use the increased sense of power they believe they might get if they were to carry one of those evil, dangerous handguns.

See http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htmfor a great scientific explanation of this.

The way to combat the projection of antis is to turn that projection back on them. Use the "mirror" and "what would you do" techniques as described in the article. Be kind, gentle, and empathetic (a liberal word meaning "I feel you"). Make them understand that we do not want to force them to have guns, carry guns, shoot guns, or even think about guns if doing so bothers them. Make them understand that we do not want them to stop being victims with a victim mentality.

Forget trying to use logic and truth - we are up against feelings and beliefs. They can have theirs, as long as we get to keep ours. We just agree to disagree, without anger or rancor (another liberal word - this one means "hurt feelings expressed by shouting and waving your arms about").

It takes a person who is mentally stable to try to do these things without breaking out in peals of laughter as you watch/listen to the anti react to these techniques. Do you have your stuff that much together to pull it off?

stay safe. Sorry for the lecture if you took it as one.

skidmark

Phssthpok · Jun 21, 2009

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ProShooter wrote:

Phssthpok wrote:

OK...now I'm a bit confused.

As I understand it (from reading this thread) it's currently OK to imbibe adult beverages while openly carrying even to the point of it affecting your sobriety (a little), but under this proposed legislation if you were carrying concealed you couldn't touch a drop, correct?

So... what happens if you entered an establishment CCing with zero intent to imbibe, but then some friends show up and you all decide to hang out for quite a bit longer and eat a full-on meal. It would seem, at this point, that one could simply flip their jacket back/tuck their shirt/do 'whatever' to transition from CC to OC and then be able to legally imbibe an adult beverage with their meal (wisdom of imbibing while carrying aside), yes? Say.... an ice cold Pilsner to wash down that perfectly grilled slab of dead animal, or maybe a nice Chianti to go with your liver and fava beans...thupthupthupthupthup!

So... tell me... exactly HOW does this proposed law effectively change the staus quo re: drinking while carrying?

It doesn't. In fact I would think the lib-sheeple would be in favor of this law as it allows carriers to keep their arms out-of-sight-out-of-mind so they can 'feel' safe. :uhoh:

Click to expand...

If you entered the ABC licensed restaurant and were carrying concealed, you were in violation at that point..

To clarify, I was speaking under the hypothetical situation of said law being discussed herein actually being enacted. I added the red text in the above quote to indicate such.

I fully realize that it is (currently) illegal to conceal in an ABC licensed establishment.

virginiatuck · Jun 21, 2009

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Phssthpok wrote:

OK...now I'm a bit confused.

As I understand it (from reading this thread) it's currently OK to imbibe adult beverages while openly carrying even to the point of it affecting your sobriety (a little), but if you are carrying concealed you can't touch a drop, correct?

I'm not your lawyer. I'll make it simple by not talking about open carry at all. This just pertains to concealed carry in public places:

With respect to alcohol, carrying a concealed handgun under the CHP is akin to driving a car. There is a level of intoxication at which point you are prohibited from driving; at that same level you are prohibited from concealing a handgun in public places. Except that you may not consume alcohol while driving; you may consume alcohol while carrying.

An amendment to the current law was proposed last session that would not allow you to drink any alcohol at all while carrying a concealed handgun in an alcohol serving restaurant/club.

AtackDuck · Jun 21, 2009

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An emailto:

Mr. Casey,

In your recent opinion piece “Get ready for guns in bars” you pose some questions. I shall endeavor to respond clearly.

First, do you know the difference between a bar and a restaurant? Bars are not legal in Virginia, thus your title is not only misleading, I wonder if it is not purposely dishonest.

To your points:

“Absent airport-style metal detectors at bars, the proviso that pistol-hiding diners not drink is laughably unenforceable.”

What is to keep law-abiding Virginians from carrying concealed and drinking, now? Perhaps it is because it is against the law and Virginians with CCW permits are law-abiding! They enforce the law by being honest. What a unique concept, apparently lost on you.

“Bad judgment and alcohol already are regular companions without guns in the mix. "That upstanding person who has the concealed carry permit is not the same person after 10 beers," Moore observed.”

See the answer above. It is also a concept lost on Mr. Moore.

“Patrons who are too frightened to enter an establishment without a concealed gun might be better off staying out of it in the first place.”

Let’s see, exercise our rights or stay at home. Hmm, I know what I will do. It is not fear that drives us to be armed. It is rather, respect for those who would do us harm and our desire to be prepared to defend ourselves and families against them.

Curiously, I do not see any of you “journalists” pushing to keep armed criminals from going into restaurants and drinking. Or for that matter, why are you not raising hell about cops and state attorneys who can go into restaurants, concealed carrying and drink? This law was passed last year without even a wrinkled nose at the flatulence. So much for the watchdogs of the media.

It’s quite simple: You see law-abiding Virginians as criminals, because we are armed. You accuse us of being immoral and drunkard buffoons, because we are armed and want to eat in a restaurant without giving up our right of self-defense.

I reject your idiocy and your abdication of your responsibility to defend yourself and society. You are a coward.

Signed (me)

Citizen · Jun 21, 2009

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skidmark wrote:

SNIP The way to combat the projection of antis is to turn that projection back on them. Use the "mirror" and "what would you do" techniques as described in the article. Be kind, gentle, and empathetic (a liberal word meaning "I feel you"). Make them understand that we do not want to force them to have guns, carry guns, shoot guns, or even think about guns if doing so bothers them. Make them understand that we do not want them to stop being victims with a victim mentality.

I like this idea.

timf343 · Jun 21, 2009

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I'm from Las Vegas. I wrote a letter to the Roanoke columnist:

Hi there Dan-

I'm a resident of Las Vegas, NV but grew up in Virginia Beach. I read your story as I like to keep current on VA politics.

Here in Nevada, concealed and openly carried weapons are allowed in bars. We also do not prohibit those in possession of a firearm from drinking. There is a law on the books (NRS 202.257) that prohibits the possession of a firearm if you have a BAC of 0.10 or greater. Basically, if you are too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to be armed. As you probably know, Las Vegas is home to thousands of bars and casinos, and they never close. 24x7x365 these bars and casinos are serving alcohol and bar patrons may be armed. Add the fact that 99% of bars in Las Vegas have slot machines and patrons are frequently coming in with hundreds or even thousands in cash.

Despite these very liberal alcohol laws, easy access to large sums of cash, and lenient gun laws, we do not have bloodshed. I've seen patrons hit $10,000 jackpots at neighborhood bars, paid cash on the spot, and show up safely the next day.

I agree that guns & alcohol don't mix, but never understood why opponents of gun freedom often cite fictional disaster scenarios as their reasoning. There is no need to imagine scenarios when one need only look to a friendly neighbor and observe. In Las Vegas, we have more bars, open more often, serving more alcohol 24 hours a day, combined with many patrons carrying large sums of cash, and armed citizens can drink. And it works.

Virginia's proposed law restricting concealed carriers from drinking may seem unenforceable, but consider it is ALREADY unenforceable upon those who choose to ignore the law. Concealing without a permit and drinking while concealing are already illegal and yet bar owners are unable to detect such illegal activity. It is because of those who choose to ignore the law that many citizens carry in the first place. Those who support this law recognize that it merely reduces the restrictions upon law abiding citizens, those who will continue to obey the law, and those whom the public need not fear in the first place.

Thanks for your time.

Roanoke Times does it again

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