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Thread: Breaking Federal Law unwittingly !!

  1. #1
    Regular Member MT GUNNY's Avatar
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    Apparently Post Office parking lots are a Gun Free zone!

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...02#post5699102

    There is great speculation as to the law yet it looks pretty clear.

    I Wonder what Gary Marbut thinks of this issue?

    I wonder if the MT's Federal School zone Exemption would help in a court case?


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    You know, it seems to me the post office thing might solve rather easily.

    The post office is on the ropes financially. Competition from UPS, Fed Ex, etc. seems to have hurt them.

    If all umpty-million gun owners said, "We not shipping USPS until the gun ban is gone", I'm betting they would quickly redefine "lawful purposes" to include the same forms of carry as the state in which the post office is situated.

    Just let theirincome drop off a couple months in a row.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  3. #3
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    The Post Office parking lot has always been a free zone, the wording is that you can not carry a firearm into the buildings.

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    JBinMontana wrote:
    The Post Office parking lot has always been a free zone, the wording is that you can not carry a firearm into the buildings.
    Wrong. The wording is that you cannot carry on Postal property. Not in the building, but on the property (which includes the building, and the land they own).

    First, 39 USC 410 exempts Post Offices from 18 USC 930,


    (a) Except as provided by subsection (b) of this section, and except as otherwise provided in this title or insofar as such laws remain in force as rules or regulations of the Postal Service, no Federal law dealing with public or Federal contracts, property, works, officers, employees, budgets, or funds, including the provisions of chapters 5 and 7 of title 5, shall apply to the exercise of the powers of the Postal Service.

    (b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

    (1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

    (2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;


    and then we turn to postal regulations: 39 CFR 232.1, which clearly does prohibit guns in post offices. In pertinent part, it states:


    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.



    So the answer is that carry on postal PROPERTY is prohibited, not just within a postal building. This means that a parking lot that belongs to the post office is prohibited.
    The above bolded statement is what's actually in question. Whether or not carrying under authority of a concealed license, or with license granted from the laws of the state (in the case of Vermont, Montana, and others) qualifies as an "official purpose."

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Even on duty police mailing a personal letter are committing this misdemeanor offense because their business is not "official".

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    The parking lot is open to the general public and the property that is refered to under this section is clearly marked, around back where the postal trucks deliver and pick up. This section is also enclosed by a high barbed wire fence and clearly marked as US Federal Property, and is not intended for public use.

    The parking lot out front is not covered under said law you are quoting.

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    No Dummy, you can not carry in the building, or any federal building for that matter. You just ******* enough to wage a war here to prove something. I've stood in our Post Office parking lot out front, and most on this forum that live in Kalispell, know which parking lot along Meridian Rd with a Postal Police Office, KPD and Flathead County Sheriff's Deputy while armed I might add and not one word was spoken about my carrying, simply because I was not breaking the law.

    Now if you want to think you can not have your firearm on your person in the open parking lot, then so be it.

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    No NavyLt none of us that day were breaking the law by carrying in the parking lot... AS there was a US Postal Police Officer in the bunch, who would be the enforcer of that regulation had I of been breaking the federal code.

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    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5699102#post5699102

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum34/27498.html

    http://en.wordpress.com/tag/carrying-a-gun-into-a-post-office/

    Lots of opinions. Just like here.

    These laws arestupid, just follow the Second Amendment, no other "Arms" laws desired or required.

    I have seen these discussions for many years, just opinions abound.

    I justcalled the USPS - PostalInspection and Postal Consumers Affairs in Seattle, WA which is over MONTANA for the USPS, transferred many times and no answers, teeth rattling and kness knocking to not answer the question. I just sent off an e-mail via the internet to the Senators of MT WY and ID for"their opinions" by requesting an letter from their office that is for public viewing on the internet andcopying for distribution for to everyone to carry on their person when they go to the Post Office.

    There needs to bea Grass Roots movement to get Congress to pass a law to allow carry"inside and outside" public access areas ofPost Office property - parking, buying stamps, dropping off and picking up mail, i.e. in accordance with (IAW) State law (meaning in MT open or concealed carrywith tomahawk, bowie knife, handgun, rifle, or shotgun)- Public building paid for by our tax dollars to conduct routine business just like at agrocery store, gas station, or whatever.

    Write yourSenators and Reps - let's get it started.

    Many Citizens go to the Post Office to buy postage stamps, pickup mail, and drop of mail on a routine basis:
    a. why should they have to go unarmed if they legally own firearms.
    b. if they have been hunting or doing many other outdoor activities or can carry legally without or with a permit - why should they have to go home to leave their firearms before going to the Post Office or park across the street from the Post Office (think about the elderly and handicapped or the weather is 40 below zero, snow 2 feet deep, and wind blowing 50 mph).

    In the words of John Wayne - A True Real American - " If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?' "

    JB Montana - you received a "pass" in the parking lot, "a look the other way".

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    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    You'd think if all this stuff was true, they'd have some kind of sign restricting the carry of any firearms outside the facility, when you're dropping off letters in those little blue boxes for instance. Since they don't, I really don't care about it and have no intention of leaving any firearm at home because I intend on mailing anything. Whenever I go to check my P.O. box, I take my pistol out and leave it in the car! I'll be damned if I'm going to be away from my pistol for any length of time!!
    Post Offices are getting to be dangerous enough with postal workers getting robbed, shot, Post Offices getting shot up and people getting killed. It happens quite often and I try not to go into those places if I don't have to. If I do, I spend as little time in there as possible.

    Kinda' goes along the lines of a bank or other financial institution. I can't carry concealed in there, so I don't!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    WRONG. Maybe your statement holds true in Washington, but not here in Montana. In our fair state here, you cannot carry concealed inside a financial institution or in a place where alcohol is dispensed, sold and consumed in the same room, aka a bar. You can however carry openly in said locations unless someone at that facility asks you to leave!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    Okay, straight from the United States Postal Inspection Service, I just got off the phone with them and they said, (drum roll please): Technically it is illegal, but the USPIS considers it a grey area, if you're just going through there to mail a letter in the blue boxes outside or cutting through the lot you're fine, but you still cannot carry inside the facility as we all know!!
    I don't know why everyone sits on here and argues the fact, why can't anyone just call like I did? Seems like if you wanted to know the truth, getting it straight from the horse's mouth would make the most sense, but some people aren't that intelligent!
    I told the Postal Inspector that I talked to that just because it is technically illegal, I still won't leave my handgun at home just because I'm going to mail a letter in the box outside! After telling her about the allowability and legality of carrying a gun here in Montana, I won't be without my handgun for anyone!!
    I told her it's common-place to see someone driving around with a rifle in the back window of their truck or to find that someone is carrying concealed! After being a cop and knowing of the increased rise in crime, it's not gonna stop me from carrying. I guess I look at it along the same lines as the book 'Living with Glocks' written by Robert H. Boatman. A chapter in that book titled The Constitutional Right and Social Obligation to Carry a Gun states that if you can't live with carrying illegally in some cases depending on where you go, you probably shouldn't carry at all!!
    Do a google search on the Title of that chapter and read it y'all! It makes more sense than I can make of it just by explaining it!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    Sorry about that NavyLt, I think I did read your post wrong!! I did in fact thing you were trying to argue the validity of what I said!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    Exactly!! She said it kinda' falls under the 'What they don't know won't hurt them' train of thought!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Now, finally most everyone admits is illegal to carry in the parking lot of the Post Office.

    Now, spend the same amount of time you did on these posts, write your Senators and Representatives in WDC like I have already done today - along with the NRA, GOA, SAF, CCRKBA, and SAS - let's get the law/rules changed, to make it legal instead of illegal then later go for carrying inside the Post Office in accordance with State law.

    Start the Grass Roots movement now.











  16. #16
    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    Okay, now I've reached the point of confusion. I've gotten off the phone with a few different Federal Agencies that I have friends with and have now determined that I'm thoroughly confused. None of the federal agencies that I've discussed this topic with seem to know which side is up. They all have varying thoughts and opinions about what is allowed and what isn't, so I'm waiting for a call from the ATFE to see what they have to say about it!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Regular Member MT GUNNY's Avatar
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    Let us know what they say 40 s&w!

    Now the Million dollar ? Who could Enforce the Federal law at a Post office in a Particular State?

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    The elected representatives of we the people are the at the federal level are Senators and Representatives, not career agency employees.

    Unless it is in writing and from the U.S. Postal Service - Postmaster General or Chief of the Postal Inspectors, it means nothing expect from our Senators and Representatives.

    I am 99.99% sure it is illegal, which means we need a change in laws and rules for the people not against the people.

    Write your Senators and Representatives, let them know your opinion and the WHY !

    Tell them we only need the Second Amendment and elected representatives should make laws and rules not employee agency people.







  19. #19
    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    The following is what I was directed to by my ATFE friend. He just called me
    back regarding this. And here I thought Federal Agents worked Banker's Hours,
    guess I was wrong!!
    He told me that pursuant to the following code, it is illegal to carry on
    Postal Service property. Whether it gets enforced, like in a state such as
    Montana, is totally and completely up to the Postal Inspector if there happens
    to be one on-scene at that moment!
    According to the Feds I've spoken with, more often than not, the Postal
    Inspector will more than likely look the other way, depending on the
    circumstances at the moment! If you're already a convicted felon, you might
    not be able to get away with it. If you're someone who's fairly Law-Abiding,
    and has never committed a crime at all (like our president for instance :shock then
    they probably won't hassle you about it at all!!

    Code:
    TITLE 39--POSTAL SERVICE
    
    CHAPTER I--UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE
    
    PART 232--CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY--Table of Contents
    
    Sec. 232.1  Conduct on postal property.
    
    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may 
    carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either 
    openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for 
    official purposes.
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Which means many of you are in direction violation of federal law, that you have not been charged means these federal employees have been failing to do their jobs, a waste of our taxes paying for their silver spoon in their mouths while riding the federal gravy train.

    Therefore the law needs to be changed. Write your Senators and Representatives in WDC (every Voting Armed Real True American Citizen across the USA).

    Those who fail to write with pen and paper, cannot be depended on to protect this country with Arms, apathy and cowardice abounds across the land for the last 50 to 100 years.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3SMMrVJs&feature=related
    the words "FREEDOM", "RIGHTS", "COWARD SECURITY"


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaPA8fGeRUc&feature=related
    the words "REPUBLIC", "PEOPLE", "RIGHT", and "WRONG"


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aEg28n4IRU&NR=1
    views on LIBERAL CONSERVATIVE DIGNITY

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    40s-and-wfan wrote:
    Maybe your statement holds true in Washington, but not here in Montana. In our fair state here, you cannot carry concealed inside a financial institution ... You can however carry openly in said locations unless someone at that facility asks you to leave!!
    Gotta protect the crooks. Kinda like the Sullivan law (1911 NY). Sponsor "Big Tim" Sullivan reputedly desired the law so that his criminal cohorts could go about their activities unimpeded by citizens defending themselves with concealed handguns.

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    LTNAVY 20 years, we Thank you for your govt service.

    Mine was 25 years, 45 countries, over10 yearsin combat zones - boots in the sand and mud,with all branches of US, NATO, and UN.

    Just because we served in the military does not relieve us of our duty as Citizens, to vote, to voice our opinion for other Citizens, and to write/call/e-mail our Senators and Representatives, and other elected/appointed employees at the federal, state, etc levels when whatever violates any part of the U.S. Constitution, including the Second Amendment, we swore to protect and defend against all enemies both foreign and domestic.

    As far as the words in the 3 short videos go,I honor every word John Wayne said, I have always tried to live up to those words.

    As far as what I wrote, I standby that word for word:

    Those who fail to write with pen and paper, cannot be depended on to protect this country with Arms, apathy and cowardice abounds across the land for the last 50 to 100 years.


  23. #23
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    40s-and-wfan wrote:
    WRONG. Maybe your statement holds true in Washington, but not here in Montana. In our fair state here, you cannot carry concealed inside a financial institution or in a place where alcohol is dispensed, sold and consumed in the same room, aka a bar. You can however carry openly in said locations unless someone at that facility asks you to leave!!
    The above is 100% true.

    Montanapassed a new law (HB 228) in the Winter/Spring 2009, which was suppose to allow these carry locations with concealment, buta few County Sheriffs and Count Attorneys in Yellowstone and Lincoln Counties along with the Montana Sheriff and Peace Officer Association "Lobbyist (Hired Gun) (maybe from out of state - does not live in Montana ???)" basically lied at worst / distorted the truth by saying there was a federal law against carrying is banks etc which there is not and whinning like children about all the gunfights that would happen in bars and eating establishments, the blood would run in the streets - kind of BS.

    I have suggested to JB Montana, MT Gunny, and 40s-and-fan, since they are the most vocal on the Montana section of this forum, to start an e-mail, letter writing, phone calling campaign to prepare for Winter/Spring 2011 (the next time the legislators meet in Helena,MT) and to now encourage the Governor and Attorney General of Montana to take action against these Sheriffs and Attorneys along with their Lobbyist for misrepresentation of the facts and misusing the power of their offices along with reimbursement to the counties for any salary or expense money they may have received for these actions.

    In addition contact for everyone across the USA, to contact their Senators and Representatives to pass a law to allow carry both inside and outside of Post Offices in public areas - in accordance with state law -parking, buying stamps, mailing mail, and picking up mail. I have already done my part on this and more - I am sure the Senators and Representatives I contacted will the contacting the USPS then USPS will be sending out notices to all Post Offices across the country to enforce the law in the parking lots too, so what you may have gotten by with in the past probably will not be allowed in the future. I sent the Senators and Representatives which I am sure they will give to the USPS - 4 web sites including this web site with this chatter on it, so I would be surprised if the Kalispell Post Office did not start enforcing the law in the near future.

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Concealed-carry-in-a-post-office-may-lead-to-rude-awakening

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5699102#post5699102

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum34/27498.html

    http://en.wordpress.com/tag/carrying-a-gun-into-a-post-office/


    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Which means many of you are in direction violation of federal law, that you have not been charged means these federal employees have been failing to do their jobs, a waste of our taxes paying for their silver spoon in their mouths while riding the federal gravy train.

    Therefore the law needs to be changed. Write your Senators and Representatives in WDC (every Voting Armed Real True American Citizen across the USA).

    Those who fail to write with pen and paper, cannot be depended on to protect this country with Arms, apathy and cowardice abounds across the land for the last 50 to 100 years.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3SMMrVJs&feature=related
    the words "FREEDOM", "RIGHTS", "COWARD SECURITY"


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaPA8fGeRUc&feature=related
    the words "REPUBLIC", "PEOPLE", "RIGHT", and "WRONG"


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aEg28n4IRU&NR=1
    views on LIBERAL CONSERVATIVE DIGNITY














  24. #24
    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    IC, keep in mind that although this statement is true, it was true long before the signing/passing of HB-228. Montana Attorney General has stated this to me in more than a few telephone conversations. These conversations took place long before the bill passed!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    40s-and-wfan wrote:
    IC, keep in mind that although this statement is true, it was true long before the signing/passing of HB-228. Montana Attorney General has stated this to me in more than a few telephone conversations. These conversations took place long before the bill passed!
    The above is correct but it was unwritten tradition and was not against the law but some Peace Officers and Govt Attorney's chose on their own to thumb their noses, arrest / charge / whatever people with distrubing the peace or some such crapola, therefore HB 228 was introduced and passed then made law.

    Heck of a note, we have to pass laws to give let the govt give us permission to do stuff already in the Constitution.

    Which changes nothing as far as the USPS property goes, the onus is still upon the people to change the law through Congress, the elected representatives of we the people.



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