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Thread: My financial situation has me afraid to OC lately.

  1. #1
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    Last summer, I open carried often without worrying. However, last summer, I had some extra cash if I needed to post bail or hire a lawyer to get some unlawful charges dropped. Now, I don't have any extra money. If a 'bad' cop wanted to bring me in because he didn't know the law, spending the necessary $500-1,000 to hire a lawyer could end up costing me my house.

    I know what the laws are, but I can't recite the exact number of ever law that I might have to discuss with a cop who stops me. Is that so wrong?

    Is anyone else in my shoes out there?


    P.S. I don't have an issue open carrying in and around the Seattle area. *My response below might shed a little bit of light, or not*
    IBTL

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    I hear ya man.

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    Regular Member Bobarino's Avatar
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    this is the main reason i don't OC outside of OCDO gatherings. i own and operate my own business solo. if i'm not here, customers go away and it would leave me ruined if i had to spend time in jail or it court. my home town isn't exactly up on the legality of OC either. they have been known to harass OC'ers quite a bit. i wish i could do more and admit it's a sad state of affairs but we gotta look out for #1 or else we'll end up in #2.

    Bobby

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    Ummm wow this is a wee bit on the paranoid side. With one exception I cannot think of a person being hassled for OC to the point where it involved court time and that person hasn't posted lately, so who knows the entire story.

    Seriously dude, unless you live in some f-d up part of the state with crazed law officers who have no respect for any law. you should grow some and OC.

    You are overreacting and inventing problems that don't exist. Sounds like you've swallowed all the myths and legends hook, line and sinker. I don't have money for a lawyer either and I OC.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Ummm wow this is a wee bit on the paranoid side. With one exception I cannot think of a person being hassled for OC to the point where it involved court time and that person hasn't posted lately, so who knows the entire story.

    Seriously dude, unless you live in some f-d up part of the state with crazed law officers who have no respect for any law. you should grow some and OC.

    You are overreacting and inventing problems that don't exist. Sounds like you've swallowed all the myths and legends hook, line and sinker. I don't have money for a lawyer either and I OC.
    Maybe I should rephrase some things... I am not too paranoid to OC around the Seattle area. However, I went to Bainbridge yesterday and I just don't know 'their' laws over there. After what I have seen on the east side of the mountains, I was not bold enough to test the waters and find out.

    I may sound a little crazy, but I am dealing with a totally backwards and corrupt law system right now. I was pulled over for a traffic violation last August, in the eastern portion of the state - they took away my firearms rights!!! That means everything - no OC, no CC, or ANY possession!! I did not even have a firearm on me at the time I was pulled over. I foughtthem and, with the help of a lawyer, I got my firearms rights back just recently.I am still not out of the woods on this issue and I have spent several thousand so far. From what I have experienced with this current run-in with the court system, I think some people may be kidding themselves that "things always work out right, if you are not breaking the law". Maybe you are right; maybe I am a bit too paranoid.

    I have no previous arrest record, no violence, no domestic, no drugs, ... nothing.
    IBTL

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Ummm wow this is a wee bit on the paranoid side. With one exception I cannot think of a person being hassled for OC to the point where it involved court time and that person hasn't posted lately, so who knows the entire story.

    Seriously dude, unless you live in some f-d up part of the state with crazed law officers who have no respect for any law. you should grow some and OC.

    You are overreacting and inventing problems that don't exist. Sounds like you've swallowed all the myths and legends hook, line and sinker. I don't have money for a lawyer either and I OC.
    Maybe I should rephrase some things... I am not too paranoid to OC around the Seattle area. However, I went to Bainbridge yesterday and I just don't know 'their' laws over there. After what I have seen on the east side of the mountains, I was not bold enough to test the waters and find out.

    I may sound a little crazy, but I am dealing with a totally backwards and corrupt law system right now. I was pulled over for a traffic violation last August, in the eastern portion of the state - they took away my firearms rights!!! That means everything - no OC, no CC, or ANY possession!! I did not even have a firearm on me at the time I was pulled over. I foughtthem and, with the help of a lawyer, I got my firearms rights back just recently.I am still not out of the woods on this issue and I have spent several thousand so far. From what I have experienced with this current run-in with the court system, I think some people may be kidding themselves that "things always work out right, if you are not breaking the law". Maybe you are right; maybe I am a bit too paranoid.

    I have no previous arrest record, no violence, no domestic, no drugs, ... nothing.
    There is a member here who OCs on Bainbridge regularly. However, he knows most of the cops.



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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Time to sac-up bro...
    Certified Glock Armorer

    "A government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen..." -- Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App.181)

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    Hey, I've got a solution. If you are really worried, go to your local federal court website, download the pro-se manual, and read it. Defend yourself or at least be able to get out of jail.

    Also, keep in mind if you are falsely arrested and you lose your job, house, etc.. you have all the makings of a great civil suit. What was it that was said about trading freedom for safety?

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    Check your PM...

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    That is exactly how they will win.People cowing down afraid to loose their comforts.The antis know this.They will use it.I even talked to one guy who said he had to be careful about letting anyone know he owned a gun for fear his anti gun boss might find out and fire him. I can't abide that spineless cowardly attitude .They are the type of folks to that would rat out a neighbor if suffiently threatened with loosinf some comfort.I can't believe people who talk the talk about gun rights but when it is time to man up and defend them they tehy will run and hide so no one sees them..Because they might loose a house or something.We loose or second ammendment people we are going to loose a lot more than a job or a house. They will try to intimidate our rights away and you will let them.

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    DEROS72 wrote:
    ...We loose or second ammendment people we are going to loose a lot more than a job or a house. They will try to intimidate our rights away and you will let them.
    I agree, but I have to live too.

    Do you (anyone) carry openly into a post office?? The law in WA is written in a way that makes it technically legal (and quite clearly)! So, why don't people do it? It has been recommended to me not to test it, since case law does not yet exist in such a situation.
    IBTL

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    sv_libertarian wrote:
    Ummm wow this is a wee bit on the paranoid side. With one exception I cannot think of a person being hassled for OC to the point where it involved court time and that person hasn't posted lately, so who knows the entire story.

    Seriously dude, unless you live in some f-d up part of the state with crazed law officers who have no respect for any law. you should grow some and OC.

    You are overreacting and inventing problems that don't exist. Sounds like you've swallowed all the myths and legends hook, line and sinker. I don't have money for a lawyer either and I OC.
    Maybe I should rephrase some things... I am not too paranoid to OC around the Seattle area. However, I went to Bainbridge yesterday and I just don't know 'their' laws over there. After what I have seen on the east side of the mountains, I was not bold enough to test the waters and find out.

    I may sound a little crazy, but I am dealing with a totally backwards and corrupt law system right now. I was pulled over for a traffic violation last August, in the eastern portion of the state - they took away my firearms rights!!! That means everything - no OC, no CC, or ANY possession!! I did not even have a firearm on me at the time I was pulled over. I foughtthem and, with the help of a lawyer, I got my firearms rights back just recently.I am still not out of the woods on this issue and I have spent several thousand so far. From what I have experienced with this current run-in with the court system, I think some people may be kidding themselves that "things always work out right, if you are not breaking the law". Maybe you are right; maybe I am a bit too paranoid.

    I have no previous arrest record, no violence, no domestic, no drugs, ... nothing.
    Could you please elaborate on how a traffic violation was the basis for you losing your firearms rights? This makes no sense to me unless you were accused of vehicle assault or something like that.



    Re: the original post, if you are charged with a crime, and cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Often, he or she will be better than anyone in the area who you could hire.

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    DEROS72 wrote:
    ...We loose or second ammendment people we are going to loose a lot more than a job or a house. They will try to intimidate our rights away and you will let them.
    I agree, but I have to live too.

    Do you (anyone) carry openly into a post office?? The law in WA is written in a way that makes it technically legal (and quite clearly)! So, why don't people do it? It has been recommended to me not to test it, since case law does not yet exist in such a situation.
    Federally owned building of course. State law does not apply there.

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    olypendrew wrote:
    Could you please elaborate on how a traffic violation was the basis for you losing your firearms rights? This makes no sense to me unless you were accused of vehicle assault or something like that.



    Re: the original post, if you are charged with a crime, and cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Often, he or she will be better than anyone in the area who you could hire.
    Don't you have to meet a minimum income or something to get a court-appointed attorney? Since I own a house, I think that alone would disqualify me.

    Hereare the basics of my story. I was planning on telling this later...

    I was riding my motorcycle with a friend last summer, to a safe rider course. We were just outside a town with a large motorcycle rally (over 500 bikes registered at the event alone). A Fish and Wildlife officer chased two riders at a high speed for several miles. He lost sight of the riders for up to 2 minutes, at a place with many turnoffs, and came upon us. We were riding under the speed limit. WhenI saw him in my mirror, before he had been following me for any distance, I signalled, slowed,and pulled over immediately. He passed me and said over the microphone "follow me". We accelerated and caught up to my friend. My friend's mirrors are blocked by his elbows, so he rode on without seeing the cop. Once we passed the road we were headed to, he looked back and saw the cop. He pulled over immediately. The cop mentioned that Eluding charges might be added to my friend (only) because he failed to pull over when the cop first got behind him. The cop placed us under arrest for Reckless Driving, impounded our bikes, and took us to jail.

    According to the police report, the cop described us as wearing dark suits. I was riding in the rear and wore a mostly white and red suit. He also described the reckless manner in which the other bikes rode, unlike the way we ride. The cop stated that my friend failed to pull over for "1/4 to 1/2 mile". The cop also stated in the following interview "I don't know how fast I was going, but he was going over 100". After arraignment, the DA made us a "deal": plead guilty to Reckless charges andpay fines and spend time in jail, or you will each get raised charges of felony eluding. We were given less than 24 hours to decide, but it was clear we were not taking charges that we were not guilty of and they had no evidence.

    Now, we are both facing charges of felony Eluding. It used to sound like an easy case to win, since all evidence suggested that the cop was likely not originally chasing us. However, the cop was recently interviewed by my lawyer and he is now adding "new" information to the case (outright lies, actually) to support the eluding charges, even for me!! I'm the guy who FOLLOWED the cop to the stop and I have eluding charges.

    The judge ordered many restrictions (can't travel, etc., etc.) including the one that we cannot be in possession of any firearms. He even held this ruling after it was presented to him that the TWOhigher courts had set case law that this was not allowed for people who were not arrested for a violent crime. The prosecutor would not even read the case law! I just got my firearms rights back.

    I am already inches away from losing my house over this current court case and people in this thread are telling me to "sack up". I'm not done paying for this one. Another concurrent court case would pretty much seal the deal on losing my house. I thought I would get more support from this group to carry the way I want to carry, rather than pressure to carry the way you want me to carry.
    IBTL

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    My main worry isn't legally defending myself, as I know that's not likely at all. What worries me is that I will be illegally detained or something along those lines, and have an opportunity for a civil suit... then not be able to afford to pursue the suit.

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    sv_libertarian wrote:
    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    DEROS72 wrote:
    ...We loose or second ammendment people we are going to loose a lot more than a job or a house. They will try to intimidate our rights away and you will let them.
    I agree, but I have to live too.

    Do you (anyone) carry openly into a post office?? The law in WA is written in a way that makes it technically legal (and quite clearly)! So, why don't people do it? It has been recommended to me not to test it, since case law does not yet exist in such a situation.
    Federally owned building of course. State law does not apply there.
    http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/caseco...ction_930.html

    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
    agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
    subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
    supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or
    prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
    Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such
    possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
    in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes
    .

    I think you meant that federal law is worded in such a way as it "suggests" that you may carry for "other lawful purposes".

    As has been pointed out by myself and others, this wording is intended only to protect such people as find themselves with a firearm in a federal facility under a situation of circumstance or other exceptions found in another federal law.

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    I didn't really follow the reason for that exception, but let's just say it was a bad example.

    If anyone really wants to pretend to be in my situation, imagine this... Get arrested for something that is a felony and includes jail time, spend $5,000+ defending yourself, the whole time you should be out of work (I have been unemployed for 8 months now),exhaust your savings,... NOW - tell me that you are going out to OC AND you are comfortable doing it.

    Ok, maybe you are just more bold or more experienced than I.
    IBTL

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    I didn't really follow the reason for that exception, but let's just say it was a bad example.

    If anyone really wants to pretend to be in my situation, imagine this... Get arrested for something that is a felony and includes jail time, spend $5,000+ defending yourself, the whole time you should be out of work (I have been unemployed for 8 months now),exhaust your savings,... NOW - tell me that you are going out to OC AND you are comfortable doing it.

    Ok, maybe you are just more bold or more experienced than I.
    If you wanted a black and white example, you are looking for it in the wrong place. The law is seldom black or white.

    The point is, unless you got the time or money, don't bother pushing your luck on the carry in Post Offices issue. Its pretty well universally accepted that any federal facility is a no go zone for the purpose of being on the "safe side".

    As for State law, you should carry only to the extent that you are comfortable and familiar. I wouldn't "push my luck" in a strange state without having done the homework.

    Helping with your homework, is what this forum is all about, but don't ask opinion of others about something that you obviously have already made your mind up about and then try and play surprised when you get a little flack for not feeling comfortable in doing exactly what people are helping you to learn.

    Carry concealed or open, your still a target for a "corrupt" LEO. You could be ruined tomorrow just for walking down the sidewalk if someone had the notion and resources to ruin your life for such a thing, but what are the chances...really?

    Its up to you to decide what your comfortable with, and with that, only you can decide what level of risk you are willing to take, and to make sure that the risk you perceive is real, or just a lack of "doing your homework".


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    FMCDH wrote:
    ...The point is, unless you got the time or money, don't bother pushing your luck on the carry in Post Offices issue. Its pretty well universally accepted that any federal facility is a no go zone for the purpose of being on the "safe side"...
    I agree. I haven't made a contrary point.

    FMCDH wrote:
    ...Helping with your homework, is what this forum is all about, but don't ask opinion of others about something that you obviously have already made your mind up about and then try and play surprised when you get a little flack for not feeling comfortable in doing exactly what people are helping you to learn...
    I didn't ask an opinion. I asked if there were others who felt the same way about finances and resulting hardships due to OCing.

    I thought this board was about discussions. When someone tells me to "grow some" or "sack up", that is the equivalent of saying "you are a *****". Ok, I can handle some ribbing. ...what was I supposed to learn from that again?
    IBTL

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    To answer your question, I don't feel the same way. I'll take my chances and stand up for my rights and defend and support the Constitution as I am sworn to do.
    Aye, same.

    As far as I'm concerned, the most important thing is just to carry and support the right of others to carry. OC is just a plus to allow for the peaceful advertisement of that right to others, AND to help protect a fundamental right.

    I don't want to wake up some day and find out that we passed some idiotic law like the poor schmucks in Texas and Florida have to put up with, making them wear clothing they normally wouldn't in conditions they normally would not for fear of "printing" or some other such idiocy, or perhaps worse.

    You are suppose to learn that when you ask a question on a public forum based around supporting our fundamental rights, your not just going to get people who agree with you that answer. Gotta take the good with the bad in a free....anything!

    "Carry On!"



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    Just to be clear, I did not state that I will not OC. I am simply more afraid of a legal action against me, since at this time it would threaten my ability to support myself.

    The original question was not really meant to be directed towards those people who are not currently feeling any financial burden, but they are of course welcome to chime in. If I had a million extra dollars, or even a hundred extra dollars, my viewpoint on consequences would be different.
    IBTL

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
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    I can appreciate your sentiments and view this situation very similiar to OC / CC / No-C discussions. OC when I can, CC when I can't, No-C at work where I'd instantly lose my job. Financial reality does matter. Although my coworkers certainly know I am a gun enthusiast and carry most places.

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    Last summer, I open carried often without worrying. However, last summer, I had some extra cash if I needed to post bail or hire a lawyer to get some unlawful charges dropped. Now, I don't have any extra money. If a 'bad' cop wanted to bring me in because he didn't know the law, spending the necessary $500-1,000 to hire a lawyer could end up costing me my house.

    I know what the laws are, but I can't recite the exact number of ever law that I might have to discuss with a cop who stops me. Is that so wrong?

    Is anyone else in my shoes out there?


    P.S. I don't have an issue open carrying in and around the Seattle area. *My response below might shed a little bit of light, or not*
    I hear ya brother! There are places I go that I am pretty confident it is not illegal to OC (MO doesn't have preemption) but where I have information that OC will not be well received and where it is likely that cops will "find a reason". Because I own small local businesses and have employees and partners who rely on me and a wife who also relies on me, there are times that I just decide it is not worth the potential cost to OC.

    Not only would I have the cost and time of defense, it is also going to be in the newspaper. As a business owner who deals with large sums of other people's money in a not too densely populated area where people seem to know everyone else's business, the financial burden of an attorney and court is only a small portion of what it might cost me down the road.

    Now, when I am on vacation out of town I almost always OC even into places or situations where while I know it is legal I also know might cause me a problem with uninformed or overly enthusiastic public servants. I do make my wife aware of the potential before walking into it, and on a few occasions I have agreed not to OC because if a problem had arisen it would have interfered with something she really wanted to do.

    The vast majority of the members here we know from polls a) have a concealed carry license/permit and b) both conceal and open carry depending on laws and circumstances. Don't let them bust your chops Shooter! We all have different reasons to carry or not carry and how we do or do not carry from day to day, hour to hour. The "cost" of OC varies greatly from person to person, situation to situation, and includes far more than just the potential financial costs - there is a significant "opportunity cost" involved in many places and in many situations.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

  25. #25
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    It would certainly hurt my finances and possibly work to be falsely arrested and jailed, but the idea that I would quickly get such a bogus charge overturned and then have all the requisites for a very lucrative suit against the defending department would make it seem like a wise investment to OC. That, and I WILL NOT allow government thugs to threaten and cowtow me into not exercising my rights. If they violate the color of law, it's going to be hard for a while, and it will not be fun, but those who fight for freedom everywhere have to endure hardships and struggles before they emerge victorious.

    If you don't want to go through that, then fine, don't OC. So long as you respect the rights of those that carry however they choose, I have no beef with you or what you choose to do. Please stick around and learn as much as you can, show up to the OC meets in the area, get to know people. I think the more you see others around you carrying without incident, the more comfortable you will become. You'll start to realize just how uncommon the harassment really is; I carry almost every day without incident......never had more than a simple contact with the police. And if you still don't decide OC is for you....so be it. I certaintly won't think any less of you for making that informed decision.

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