My first time being asked to leave an establishment

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No problem! As far as I am concerned we are all here to learn and share what we know!!!

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autosurgeon wrote:

No problem! As far as I am concerned we are all here to learn and share what we know!!!

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And I'm glad that you and others here think that way. It's very positive!

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Part of my outlook comes from being a teacher... but then I have always tried to share my knowledge with others.... I also am accused on occasion of asking too many questions:shock::lol:

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Like i said, I'm sure that was covered in my class, but I work midnights, and I had that class, shooting time, etc, right after work.. I was zombifying through the class.

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malignity wrote:

Like i said, I'm sure that was covered in my class, but I work midnights, and I had that class, shooting time, etc, right after work.. I was zombifying through the class.

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I know what you mean!!

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Michigander wrote:

The best way to handle being kicked out of places that don't like you open carrying is to look forward to it. Hope that you'll finally get booted out of somewhere. I've found it to be extremely rare, since it's only happened to me one time. By looking forward to it, you'll be pleasantly surprised when it finally happens. It nothing more than a milestone of progress to be made while OCing.

You did your best to inform her what the laws were, and you left when asked. You shouldn't be irritated, because it appears you did everything right, and you have identified a business to be avoided. Good job.

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careful what you wish for... it could end in police over-reaction and illegal search and seizure. and that's NEVER fun.

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EM87 wrote:

She said that when she talked to the manager of Gallagher's that she made it clear to her that it was a private establishment and that she could ask me to leave. It didn't sound like she told her it was illegal, but it's a he said she said now.

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I think the signs point to the public safety operator being truthful about what was said. If what the manager said was true (she was told it was illegal, rather than just being reminded ofher private property options) you almost definitely would have had a police interaction. Ibelieve the operator is truthful and the manager is a liar.

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I'll be writing a letter later today, and I'll most likely post it for review and suggestions before I drop it off in person to the owner. I don't know if the owner (I think there are two) will be around tonight or not, but I'll at least find out when he will be.

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DanM wrote:

EM87 wrote:

She said that when she talked to the manager of Gallagher's that she made it clear to her that it was a private establishment and that she could ask me to leave. It didn't sound like she told her it was illegal, but it's a he said she said now.

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I think the signs point to the public safety operator being truthful about what was said. If what the manager said was true (she was told it was illegal, rather than just being reminded ofher private property options) you almost definitely would have had a police interaction. Ibelieve the operator is truthful and the manager is a liar.

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That is what I have been thinking to more I have mulled this one over. I think that manager was already convinced that she wanted you to leave and when the police told her about the private property options she felt that wasn't strong enough because it would require her to make the decision and she wanted you gone but ddn't want you to think it was her idea but rather that it is NOT legal and therefor her hands are tied....

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EM87 wrote:

I'll be writing a letter later today, and I'll most likely post it for review and suggestions before I drop it off in person to the owner. I don't know if the owner (I think there are two) will be around tonight or not, but I'll at least find out when he will be.

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Let them know that there are those of us that frequent the Paw Paw location as well and we like the joint but there are other places we can go.....

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if it's true that the establishment is a bar and grill and derives it's primary source of income from food, then it might be worth mentioning that people can conceal without permission. then again, it could cause them to post up the dreaded no guns sign. but of course, it's their right not to take money from everyone.

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I guess one of my arguments to the owner would be this. Who started the trouble?? The manager before that was anyone screaming and running out? SO they only lost business once they kicked the guy with the gun out.... hmmm seems rather bad business to me!

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All good suggestions, thank you. I don't know, however, what the alcohol to food to 'other' ratio is. It was estimated to me by a manager a few weeks ago that they make more in alcohol sales. I'm not sure that I'll mention that because I don't want to get my facts mixed up.

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With what they charge for food:what:

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Sounds to me like when the manager called Public Safety and asked, they gave her a bunch of double talk and implied without actually saying that it was illegal. Already thinking it WAS illegal, when told she could ask you to cover it or leave, she accepted that as confirmation.

Police officers have been known to out right lie to the public about gun laws in the past and will in the future, there is no law that says they can't.

If you are really interested, you could FOIA the conversation as I am sure all calls are recorded . Asking the police to call the bar & correct the misinformation just isn't going to go anyplace. They don't want the manager to actually know what you did was legal.

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Straight up, if I were ever asked to leave a place that I had spent money at; I would demand a refund (of, say, admission) or to be exonerated from paying my bill (at, say, a restaurant). To be fair, as long as the waitstaff had nothing to do with it, I would still tip them. But as far as the bill itself, they could suck it.

If they wanted to make an issue out of it and call the police, I'd wait outside for them to arrive... and if the police demanded that I pay it, I'd go ahead and pay it... but then I would file a small claims suit to get the money back.

It's simple contract law. When dining in a restaurant, you are exchanging money for the food and service. If neither is delivered in accordance with reasonable expectations, then the contract is null and void. Said another way, if you only finished half your meal before being asked to leave (as long as you weren't being asked to leave because you violated laws or were otherwise indecent); then you should not be held liable for the unfinished portion because you were not permitted to finish it. Not unless they advised you of their firearms policy BEFORE you ordered.

They could offer to box it up for you... but I would argue that I didn't pay for a boxed meal... I paid for a sit-down meal.

As long as you didn't break the law, and as long as you weren't advised prior to ordering of their policy, then they have no leg to stand on.

I actually know a guy that sued a restaurant for something similar and won. He showed up to dine, ordered, ate, then when he went to pay, he was suddenly informed (with no notice; signs or otherwise) that they don't accept debit or credit cards. He had no cash on him, so they called the police. He was issued a citation for (going from memory here) "Attempting to Defraud a Retail Establishment". He had the charge dropped in court then sued the restaurant to be absolved of the liability they claimed he owed for his meal.

I can't see how a gun would be any different.

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Hmmm this brings to mind a gas station incident that I had. I pulled in to a station and filled my bike "which has a small tank and it only came to 4.00 worth of gas ... I think regular was like 2.03 or something ... it was early last spring. Anyhow I go inside to pay and the girl say we have a 10.00 min credit card charge or you have to pay cash... Now all I had was a charge card and a debit card. I told her that so she points at the ATM and says get some cash in a nasty voice... so I go look at the ATM 8.00 fee and it was one of those contract ATM's so the station was aking in 6.00 of that fee for having it in there. At that point I got pissed... so I called the police and when the trooper got there I exsplained and told him I wanted to file fraud charges against the station. He laughed and told the girl in a sharp tone that the minimum charge sign had to come down and the only thing they could charge was .30 on charges under 5.00 and that was only if they posted the pumps and the register of that fact. He then stated that they might want to run the ATM charge by a lawyer as that could be considerd gouging as it only told the fee after you inserted your card and were halfway through the transaction.

So anyway I paid with my CC and as I was leaving " he thanked me by the way" I heard him say a Detective from the retail fraud division would be doing a followup on the matter to make sure they had complied.

This was the Marathon on M51 just north of Niles.

I stopped there in the fall last year and it was under new ownership and much cleaner and no signs about minimum fees and a diff ATM was in there and it was posted 4.00 fee unless you used a Marathon card which was free or a Berrian Teachers Credit Union card also free.

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autosurgeon wrote:

Hmmm this brings to mind a gas station incident that I had. I pulled in to a station and filled my bike "which has a small tank and it only came to 4.00 worth of gas ... I think regular was like 2.03 or something ... it was early last spring. Anyhow I go inside to pay and the girl say we have a 10.00 min credit card charge or you have to pay cash... Now all I had was a charge card and a debit card. I told her that so she points at the ATM and says get some cash in a nasty voice... so I go look at the ATM 8.00 fee and it was one of those contract ATM's so the station was aking in 6.00 of that fee for having it in there. At that point I got pissed... so I called the police and when the trooper got there I exsplained and told him I wanted to file fraud charges against the station. He laughed and told the girl in a sharp tone that the minimum charge sign had to come down and the only thing they could charge was .30 on charges under 5.00 and that was only if they posted the pumps and the register of that fact. He then stated that they might want to run the ATM charge by a lawyer as that could be considerd gouging as it only told the fee after you inserted your card and were halfway through the transaction.

So anyway I paid with my CC and as I was leaving " he thanked me by the way" I heard him say a Detective from the retail fraud division would be doing a followup on the matter to make sure they had complied.

This was the Marathon on M51 just north of Niles.

I stopped there in the fall last year and it was under new ownership and much cleaner and no signs about minimum fees and a diff ATM was in there and it was posted 4.00 fee unless you used a Marathon card which was free or a Berrian Teachers Credit Union card also free.

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Future reference:

In MI, an ATM is required to have the fees associated with a transaction listed on the ATM in a conspicuous area. (edit: Can't find the source for this right now... sorry)

In addition, Merchant agreements with credit card companies prohibit two things: 1)Minimum amounts for charging to a card. 2) Fees for accepting credit cards.

An establishment may offer a "Cash discount" but they cannot charge a "credit card tax." It's all about the wording.

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hey, we tend to hear more negative LEO stories on hear because that's the nature of the beast. it's definitely nice to hear a positive story.

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zigziggityzoo wrote:

autosurgeon wrote:

Hmmm this brings to mind a gas station incident that I had. I pulled in to a station and filled my bike "which has a small tank and it only came to 4.00 worth of gas ... I think regular was like 2.03 or something ... it was early last spring. Anyhow I go inside to pay and the girl say we have a 10.00 min credit card charge or you have to pay cash... Now all I had was a charge card and a debit card. I told her that so she points at the ATM and says get some cash in a nasty voice... so I go look at the ATM 8.00 fee and it was one of those contract ATM's so the station was aking in 6.00 of that fee for having it in there. At that point I got pissed... so I called the police and when the trooper got there I exsplained and told him I wanted to file fraud charges against the station. He laughed and told the girl in a sharp tone that the minimum charge sign had to come down and the only thing they could charge was .30 on charges under 5.00 and that was only if they posted the pumps and the register of that fact. He then stated that they might want to run the ATM charge by a lawyer as that could be considerd gouging as it only told the fee after you inserted your card and were halfway through the transaction.

So anyway I paid with my CC and as I was leaving " he thanked me by the way" I heard him say a Detective from the retail fraud division would be doing a followup on the matter to make sure they had complied.

This was the Marathon on M51 just north of Niles.

I stopped there in the fall last year and it was under new ownership and much cleaner and no signs about minimum fees and a diff ATM was in there and it was posted 4.00 fee unless you used a Marathon card which was free or a Berrian Teachers Credit Union card also free.

Click to expand...

Future reference:

In MI, an ATM is required to have the fees associated with a transaction listed on the ATM in a conspicuous area. (edit: Can't find the source for this right now... sorry)

In addition, Merchant agreements with credit card companies prohibit two things: 1)Minimum amounts for charging to a card. 2) Fees for accepting credit cards.

An establishment may offer a "Cash discount" but they cannot charge a "credit card tax." It's all about the wording.

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Good to know! I may mention the bit about ""In addition, Merchant agreements with credit card companies prohibit two things: 1)Minimum amounts for charging to a card. 2) Fees for accepting credit cards." to a friend of mine as he charges a fee like this... I don't want him to lose his ability to take credit cards.

Also I have had good luck in my dealings with the State police and several County Sheriffs departments... I have only had problems when dealing with city and township police...