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Thread: OC Police Stop Story - Pennsylvania

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    http://www.timesonline.com/articles/...d777454049.txt

    TUESDAY JUNE 23, 2009

    Moon Township man says police stop over gun was unjust

    MOON TWP. — A Moon Township man feels he was unjustly stopped by Moon police for openly carrying a holstered 9mm handgun on his hip while walking in the township Monday night.

    “I open-carry almost everywhere I go, and I’ve never had this problem before, not once. The thing is, open-carrying isn’t a crime in and of itself,” said 21-year-old Eric McElearney.

    McElearney is right, according to Moon Police Chief Leo McCarthy. Aside from a few exceptions, it’s legal to openly carry a registered firearm in Pennsylvania and no special permit is required to do so, as one is to carry a concealed weapon.

    But McCarthy said McElearney’s account of what happened when police stopped and questioned him Monday night, which he posted on the message-board Web site Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association, was “grossly inaccurate, and I take exception to it.”

    McELEARNEY’S ACCOUNT

    According to the Web posting, which had generated 40 pages of comments as of Friday afternoon, McElearney was openly carrying a handgun while out for a walk around 10 p.m. Monday when “all of the sudden I have headlights blazing all around me.”

    McElearney said he was surrounded by a dozen officers in six police cars, and eight officers pointed their guns at him after he was ordered to place his hands against a nearby tree. He said officers then disarmed him, frisked him and ran his name through a police database before ultimately returning his weapon and letting him go on his way.

    When contacted Thursday, McElearney, who wasn’t cited in the incident, said he shouldn’t have been stopped by police because he “wasn’t doing anything wrong.” He would not say whether he intended to file a complaint against the department or sue.

    DEPARTMENT’S ACCOUNT

    McCarthy agreed that McElearney didn’t break the law, but he did not agree with McElearney’s story.

    McCarthy said only five officers were working Monday night; two of them handled the McElearney stop, and the three others drove up to the scene as McElearney was walking away. He also said Moon officers travel alone in their cruisers, so there couldn’t have been a dozen officers in six cruisers.

    “He’s got a real math problem or a real observation problem,” McCarthy said.

    McCarthy also felt the stop was justified.

    According to the report by officer Jonathan Fry, police received a call about a man carrying a gun in the area of Riders Way. When Fry saw McElearney, he was walking along Beaver Grade Road, near Lozer Road.

    “As my headlights illuminated him further, I could clearly see a firearm holstered to the right side of his waistband area. Upon seeing me, (McElearney’s) pace quickened and he made an immediate left onto Lozer Drive, shielding his right side from my vision,” the report said.

    “I shined my patrol car’s spotlight on him in order to see him clearly. (McElearney) did not turn around or react in any way ... other than to increase his walking speed even more,” the report said.

    Police said a quick background check showed McElearney’s gun was registered to him and he had a valid concealed-weapons permit. McElearney said he prefers to openly carry his gun “because of comfort and ease of access if I ever needed to access it.”

    McCarthy said McElearney’s “furtive movements,” and the time of night, prompted police to stop him.

    “You know what kind of society we live in these days. Almost every single week in Moon Township, we take illegal firearms off individuals. Moon Township is a great place, but it’s not Mayberry. We don’t know who we’re dealing with. I think we responded prudently. ... we only briefly took his weapon off him,” McCarthy said.

    “Did (McElearney) commit a crime? No. Could he sue and win? Yes, he could. But I’d rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. We didn’t mean this man any harm, and I don’t have any problem with people exercising their rights. But I’d like to see them exercise some common sense and honesty, too,” McCarthy said.

    Tom Fontaine can be reached online at tfontaine@timesonline.com.

    [OPEN-CARRY LAW]

    In Pennsylvania, people 18 and older who aren’t prohibited from owning firearms are allowed to openly carry a handgun without a concealed-weapons permit except in vehicles, first-class cities and where prohibited specifically by law, such as court facilities, federal buildings, schools and airport terminals. Philadelphia is Pennsylvania’s only first-class city.

    Private property owners or businesses have the right to prohibit open carrying of guns.

    http://www.timesonline.com/articles/...d777454049.txt


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    but there is no gun registration in PA - why are the police still "running serial numbers" in violation of the Fourth Amendment under Hicks v. Arizona.

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    Mike wrote:
    but there is no gun registration in PA - why are the police still "running serial numbers" in violation of the Fourth Amendment under Hicks v. Arizona.
    Because of an illegal database that the Pennsylvania State Police mantain. No joke.

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    PA Shooter wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    but there is no gun registration in PA - why are the police still "running serial numbers" in violation of the Fourth Amendment under Hicks v. Arizona.
    Because of an illegal database that the Pennsylvania State Police mantain. No joke.
    it does not matter that the State Police have records of dealer sales of handguns that happen to have occurred in PA - it has nothing to do with anything - seizing a gun to look at and use the serial numbers has no purpose - it does not matter what is in the database as far as previous transfers goes.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    If the story was embellished on one hand (dozen officers and six cars) then some doubt is introduced as to the veracity of the balance of the details. Easier to have a digital recorder running to confirm the facts as they occurred.

    Not in any way justifying extra-legal procedures if such were performed.

    Yata hey
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    If the story was embellished on one hand (dozen officers and six cars) then some doubt is introduced as to the veracity of the balance of the details. Easier to have a digital recorder running to confirm the facts as they occurred.

    Not in any way justifying extra-legal procedures if such were performed.

    Yata hey
    I was thinking the same thing.

    However, that cuts both ways. The police seem to have embellished with this information that the gun was registered to the detainee. As far as I know, there is no gun registration in PA. A little comment to by the chief to make his troops look diligent and concerned about public safety?

    Also, I suspect the "furtive" stuff is manufactured. I can't see a guy who is clean suddenly changing direction, and hiding his gun. It doesn't add up. I think they had toinvent someRAS to justify the stop after they discovered he was clean. Its too pat that the RAS gives reasonable suspicion about the gun itself--a holstered gun, no less,as compared to a mexican-carried gun, or CCd gun. If he turned left onto a side street OF COURSE his gun wasthen hidden from view.

    Isn't there US Supreme Ct. case law on the difference between headlong flight and just walking away in a manner that is indicative of a desire to exericise one's right to not consent to contact? I've read such a case, just can't recall if its VA or USA. If PA or USA has such case law, it just adds up more to an illegal detention.

    I'm betting the cops went charging in half-cocked.

    Based on the info so far, I'm on the detainee's side.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    PA Shooter wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    but there is no gun registration in PA - why are the police still "running serial numbers" in violation of the Fourth Amendment under Hicks v. Arizona.
    Because of an illegal database that the Pennsylvania State Police mantain. No joke.
    And if the firearm was not in the "database" you can bet the police would have illegally seized it!

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    Steve in PA wrote:
    PA Shooter wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    but there is no gun registration in PA - why are the police still "running serial numbers" in violation of the Fourth Amendment under Hicks v. Arizona.
    Because of an illegal database that the Pennsylvania State Police mantain. No joke.
    And if the firearm was not in the "database" you can bet the police would have illegally seized it!
    No - this is becoming increasingly rare in PA as a result of lawsuits and re-training of the police force Commonwealth wide.

    If possible, carry a handgun not purchased thru a PA dealer so that in the event of a police stop where they decide to illegally run your serial numbers, you will have a shot at adding to your complaint the unlawful confiscation of your gun.

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    Mike wrote:
    Steve in PA wrote:
    PA Shooter wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    but there is no gun registration in PA - why are the police still "running serial numbers" in violation of the Fourth Amendment under Hicks v. Arizona.
    Because of an illegal database that the Pennsylvania State Police mantain. No joke.
    And if the firearm was not in the "database" you can bet the police would have illegally seized it!
    No - this is becoming increasingly rare in PA as a result of lawsuits and re-training of the police force Commonwealth wide.

    If possible, carry a handgun not purchased thru a PA dealer so that in the event of a police stop where they decide to illegally run your serial numbers, you will have a shot at adding to your complaint the unlawful confiscation of your gun.
    Check out the thread over on PAFOA where a person recently had his firearm "seized" because it was not in the "database".

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    If I hadn't JUST bought my Glock when I was stopped open carrying last year, and still had all the paperwork in the car (I really need to clean my car still...) the police who stopped me were going to take it until I could "prove it was mine"

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    Il_Duce wrote:
    If I hadn't JUST bought my Glock when I was stopped open carrying last year, and still had all the paperwork in the car (I really need to clean my car still...) the police who stopped me were going to take it until I could "prove it was mine"
    Next time you see a PA cop, take his gun and tell him he can have it back if he can prove it's his. Since it was paid for with tax money,which is stolen, you can keep it.

    All those policemen out there, carrying free guns for us!

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    ...

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    Il_Duce wrote:
    If I hadn't JUST bought my Glock when I was stopped open carrying last year, and still had all the paperwork in the car (I really need to clean my car still...) the police who stopped me were going to take it until I could "prove it was mine"
    Too bad you did this - you missed out on a great opportunbitty to sue the police for their illegal actions.

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    Ah.. let's just say that there were some issues that they were overlooking that I didn't want them to draw their attention to closely to, that night...

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    PA Shooter wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    but there is no gun registration in PA - why are the police still "running serial numbers" in violation of the Fourth Amendment under Hicks v. Arizona.
    Because of an illegal database that the Pennsylvania State Police mantain. No joke.
    No... wrong... Why is everyone keyboard commanding the sales database? The database doesn't contain records of all handguns, so it can't be a firearms registry as stated by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

    :| Exactly the reason I stopped reading pafoa. All the misinformation, bigotry, and hypocrisy.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
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    I thought it's because they banned you for being annoying as @#$%, and a creepy wanna-be ATF cosplayer.

    Just because it isn't a full database doesn't mean they don't try using it as one.

    And don't tell your sexual deviancies to a group of conservatives if you don't want to get laughed out, furfaaaaaaaaaaaag.

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    Actually, the reason what not what you specified in your post... oh the ignorance you exhibit...

    I was continuing to read pafoa afterwards, then a thought suddenly hit me. PAFOA successfully followed in the footsteps of Slashdot. Slashdot used to actually be a place of meaningful discussion, where even Linus himself conversed.

    Opencarry.org has maintained and appears to continue to maintain a stable atmosphere. Trust me, the ban was a wake up call, I don't need to be on a forum of keyboard commandos, trolls, and white supremicists. Doug himself stated he was against any form of open carry, and was the one who banned me because of his personal beliefs.

    PAFOA is not a place I'd recommend, it's just another Slashdot of firearms.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    This is theincident that started me to set up the OC, CC, NC dinner at Hoss's in Moon Township on 11 July 2009


    And Yes, the Moon Township policeChief was right about only5 officers on duty that night, but he didn't say anything about the neighboring townships that also responded.


    An OC Activist and 1 of the 3%

    Ed Stephan




    An Oath Keeper and OC Activist, 1 of the 3%, Ed Stephan

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    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Actually, the reason what not what you specified in your post... oh the ignorance you exhibit...

    I was continuing to read pafoa afterwards, then a thought suddenly hit me. PAFOA successfully followed in the footsteps of Slashdot. Slashdot used to actually be a place of meaningful discussion, where even Linus himself conversed.

    Opencarry.org has maintained and appears to continue to maintain a stable atmosphere. Trust me, the ban was a wake up call, I don't need to be on a forum of keyboard commandos, trolls, and white supremicists. Doug himself stated he was against any form of open carry, and was the one who banned me because of his personal beliefs.

    PAFOA is not a place I'd recommend, it's just another Slashdot of firearms.
    You were banned for being an annoying twit. Just admit it. Nobody liked you, you were irritating, you got banned.

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    Actually, no. Many liked me. Even the whole chat incident ended in me gaining more friends. SFN and I was knocking heads in chat, and ended up befriending each other.

    Now, if you want to get technical about it. XD45, sgt, and D-FENS were probably the largest antagonists of the group. They bashed by showing videos of homosexual activity mocking it, making fun of being furry by showing other depicting images, general harassment in channel even after being asked to stop, among other things. You're welcome to ask Pa Patriot how tolerant I was of the trolls in chat, I sat there quietly allowing them to bully.

    So, if you want to futher expose how the group acts, I'd gladly chat more about the behavior.
    Gays are prominent members of firearm rights, we do more via the courts, don't like it? Leave.
    Religious bigots against same sex marriage are not different than white supremacists.
    I expel anti-gay people off my teams. Tolerance is key to team cohesion and team building.

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    Yiff in hell, abomination.

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    Il_Duce wrote:
    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Actually, the reason what not what you specified in your post... oh the ignorance you exhibit...

    I was continuing to read pafoa afterwards, then a thought suddenly hit me. PAFOA successfully followed in the footsteps of Slashdot. Slashdot used to actually be a place of meaningful discussion, where even Linus himself conversed.

    Opencarry.org has maintained and appears to continue to maintain a stable atmosphere. Trust me, the ban was a wake up call, I don't need to be on a forum of keyboard commandos, trolls, and white supremicists. Doug himself stated he was against any form of open carry, and was the one who banned me because of his personal beliefs.

    PAFOA is not a place I'd recommend, it's just another Slashdot of firearms.
    You were banned for being an annoying twit. Just admit it. Nobody liked you, you were irritating, you got banned.


    Is it obvious to anyone else that this is Aran? :?

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    shefearsnothing wrote:
    Il_Duce wrote:
    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Actually, the reason what not what you specified in your post... oh the ignorance you exhibit...

    I was continuing to read pafoa afterwards, then a thought suddenly hit me. PAFOA successfully followed in the footsteps of Slashdot. Slashdot used to actually be a place of meaningful discussion, where even Linus himself conversed.

    Opencarry.org has maintained and appears to continue to maintain a stable atmosphere. Trust me, the ban was a wake up call, I don't need to be on a forum of keyboard commandos, trolls, and white supremicists. Doug himself stated he was against any form of open carry, and was the one who banned me because of his personal beliefs.

    PAFOA is not a place I'd recommend, it's just another Slashdot of firearms.
    You were banned for being an annoying twit. Just admit it. Nobody liked you, you were irritating, you got banned.
    Is it obvious to anyone else that this is Aran? :?
    Not so sure - he hasn't attacked or slandered you yet.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    shefearsnothing wrote:
    Il_Duce wrote:
    insane.kangaroo wrote:
    Actually, the reason what not what you specified in your post... oh the ignorance you exhibit...

    I was continuing to read pafoa afterwards, then a thought suddenly hit me. PAFOA successfully followed in the footsteps of Slashdot. Slashdot used to actually be a place of meaningful discussion, where even Linus himself conversed.

    Opencarry.org has maintained and appears to continue to maintain a stable atmosphere. Trust me, the ban was a wake up call, I don't need to be on a forum of keyboard commandos, trolls, and white supremicists. Doug himself stated he was against any form of open carry, and was the one who banned me because of his personal beliefs.

    PAFOA is not a place I'd recommend, it's just another Slashdot of firearms.
    You were banned for being an annoying twit. Just admit it. Nobody liked you, you were irritating, you got banned.


    Is it obvious to anyone else that this is Aran? :?
    ?

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    Probably just trying to stay under the radar as long as possible. He was such a huge fan of the roo's. He is giving himself away.



    So how are you Dale? :P

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