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Thread: Question RE: LOC on Private Property that is NOT yours.

  1. #1
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    Does anyone know the legality of LOC on private property that is not yours but you are authorized to be there. The owner of the property is not present to be aware of your LOC status.

    Here's the scenario:

    A Real Estate Appraiser goes into a bad neighborhood to valuate a bank repossessed vacant home. Often times these properties become inhabited by hiding criminals, drug labs or disgruntled homeowners. It goes without saying that these properties can be dangerous for a real estate agent or appraiser. The appraiser is, however, fully authorized to be on the property by virtue of the fact that the lending back has hired said appraiser to valuate the property. The appraiser faces an attacker coming at him/her, draws LOC weapon and shoots attacker.

    Since an appraiser has little chance of actually speaking with someone to "authorize" a load gun on the property what are the legalities? I did some research and did not find anything that would it this scenario.

    I have a friend who has run into several dangerous situations while valuating REO (Real Estate Owned) properties and came face to face with dangerous people.

    Most of the time the attacker in this situation would be armed with a knife. Some might argue that a knife is not enough to constitute use of deadly force with a gun. However, citing the Sergant Dennis Tueller Drill, a knife attacker within 21 feet poses a significant and imminent danger of your life. You must know this prior to being in this situation to be defensible in court, without prior knoweledge you can be tried for murder. You must have a prior knowledge of what is actually deadly force to establish reasonable belief that your life is in danger. Dennis Tueller specified this.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    If the individual were forced to defend their life, then they would fall under the 12031 exemption that allows for a loaded firearm if that person reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property.

    However, that isn't likely to be when the person carrying the firearm is going to get into trouble.

    It's when you are going from your vehicle to the house, when a neighbor call the cops for a MWAG and the cops get there as you are going across the lawn back to your car. The cops then come and find the person with a loaded firearm, instant 12031 violation, loaded firearm in a public place in an incorporated city.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    Does anyone know the legality of LOC on private property that is not yours but you are authorized to be there. The owner of the property is not present to be aware of your LOC status.
    If you are in a public place in a city or in a prohibited area of a non-city; you need to meet one of theexemptions in PC 12031 in order to carry loaded.

    I've bolded what look to be the most relevant items to this scenario.

    CA Penal Code ----------

    12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
    he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
    incorporated city
    or in any public place or on any public street in a
    prohibited area of unincorporated territory.



    (b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following:

    (1) Peace officers...

    (2) A retired peace officer...

    (3) An honorably retired peace officer ...

    (4) Members of the military forces of this state or of the United
    States engaged in the performance of their duties.

    (5) Persons who are using target ranges

    (6) [CCW Holders]

    (7) Armored vehicle guards

    (8) Upon approval of the sheriff of the county in which they
    reside, honorably retired federal officers ...

    (c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
    have completed a regular course in firearms training approved by the
    Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training:


    (1) Patrol special police officers ...

    (2) The carrying of weapons by animal control officers ...

    (3) Harbor police officers ...

    (d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following ...

    (1) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
    financial institutions ...

    (2) Guards of contract carriers operating armored vehicles...

    (3) Private investigators and private patrol operators ...

    (4) Uniformed security guards ...

    (5) Uniformed security guards...

    (6) Uniformed employees of private patrol operators ...

    ...

    (h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
    any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
    officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
    purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
    within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
    possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
    property.


    (i) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from carrying
    a loaded firearm in an area within an incorporated city while
    engaged in hunting...

    (j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
    carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would
    otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
    person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
    immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
    necessary for the preservation of that person or property.
    As used
    in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
    after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
    been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
    assistance.


    (k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
    of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
    or attempting to make a lawful arrest.


    (l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
    loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
    residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.






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    mjones wrote:
    (c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
    have completed a regular course in firearms training approved by the
    Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training:


    (1) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
    financial institutions ...
    So does this imply that a subcontractor of a bank would be exempt in this case while on the job for that bank?

    BTW, thank you for your very insightful post!

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    Decoligny wrote:
    If the individual were forced to defend their life, then they would fall under the 12031 exemption that allows for a loaded firearm if that person reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property.

    However, that isn't likely to be when the person carrying the firearm is going to get into trouble.

    It's when you are going from your vehicle to the house, when a neighbor call the cops for a MWAG and the cops get there as you are going across the lawn back to your car. The cops then come and find the person with a loaded firearm, instant 12031 violation, loaded firearm in a public place in an incorporated city.
    Good point... so in this case you would need to unload before setting foot on the public sidewalk or street.

  6. #6
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    mjones wrote:
    (c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
    have completed a regular course in firearms training approved by the
    Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training:


    (1) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
    financial institutions ...
    So does this imply that a subcontractor of a bank would be exempt in this case while on the job for that bank?

    BTW, thank you for your very insightful post!
    By my reading of the more complete code...only if trained and issued a firearms certificate to go along with a guard card...or if off-duty Law Enforcement.

    --------

    12031.

    ...

    (d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
    have been issued a certificate pursuant to Section 12033. The
    certificate shall not be required of any person who is a peace
    officer, who has completed all training required by law for the
    exercise of his or her power as a peace officer, and who is employed
    while not on duty as a peace officer.
    (1) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
    financial institutions while actually employed in and about the
    shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure,
    bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.


    12033. The Department of Consumer Affairs may issue a certificate
    to any person referred to in subdivision (d) of Section 12031, upon
    notification by the school where the course was completed, that the
    person has successfully completed a course in the carrying and use of
    firearms and a course of training in the exercise of the powers of
    arrest which meet the standards prescribed by the department pursuant
    to Section 7583.5 of the Business and Professions Code.



  7. #7
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    If the individual were forced to defend their life, then they would fall under the 12031 exemption that allows for a loaded firearm if that person reasonably believes that the person or property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the preservation of that person or property.

    However, that isn't likely to be when the person carrying the firearm is going to get into trouble.

    It's when you are going from your vehicle to the house, when a neighbor call the cops for a MWAG and the cops get there as you are going across the lawn back to your car. The cops then come and find the person with a loaded firearm, instant 12031 violation, loaded firearm in a public place in an incorporated city.
    Good point... so in this case you would need to unload before setting foot on the public sidewalk or street.
    I believe it is the Overturf (maybe Overstreet, can't remember) case that ruled that a front yard without a fence is considered a "public place". So you would have to wait until you entered the front door to load, and unload before you exited.



  8. #8
    Newbie cato's Avatar
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    Overturf :X



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    (h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
    any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
    officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
    purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
    within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
    possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
    property.


    To save you some painful reading, the Overturf decision basically stated that you can "have" a loaded firearm on private property, but that doesn't mean you can "carry" that firearm. The court determined that the legislature did not intend to permit the carrying of loaded firearms, only the possession.

    For example, a gas station clerk could "have" a loaded shotgun on a shelf behind the counter, as it is not carried.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    (h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
    any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
    officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
    purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
    within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
    possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
    property.


    To save you some painful reading, the Overturf decision basically stated that you can "have" a loaded firearm on private property, but that doesn't mean you can "carry" that firearm. The court determined that the legislature did not intend to permit the carrying of loaded firearms, only the possession.

    For example, a gas station clerk could "have" a loaded shotgun on a shelf behind the counter, as it is not carried.
    It would seem in this scenario it would be best to obtain a concealed carry permit (near impossible) and not show anything.

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    LUCC would probably be a viable option if one isn't able/willing to get a permission slip.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    I wonder if the employees at the local indoor range are aware of this ruling?
    All of them open carry loaded.

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    bad_ace wrote:
    I wonder if the employees at the local indoor range are aware of this ruling?
    All of them open carry loaded.
    I know they do at all the gun stores in my town. Either the cops don't care, or are just blissfully ignorant.
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    bad_ace wrote:
    I wonder if the employees at the local indoor range are aware of this ruling?
    All of them open carry loaded.
    I know my friend was issued a CCW. But it is only allowed while he is on-the-job at a liquor store. Apparently ABC Is encouraging or requiring a loaded gun on the premises.

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    bad_ace wrote:
    I wonder if the employees at the local indoor range are aware of this ruling?
    All of them open carry loaded.
    If 12031 is not applicable then you don't need an exemption.

  16. #16
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    cato wrote:
    bad_ace wrote:
    I wonder if the employees at the local indoor range are aware of this ruling?
    All of them open carry loaded.
    If 12031 is not applicable then you don't need an exemption.
    aka - an indoor range is not a public place?

    I know the inside of my home isn't a public place...but with the way Theseus is being treated, I'm not sure the inside of any business is a non-public place anymore

  17. #17
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    cato wrote:
    bad_ace wrote:
    I wonder if the employees at the local indoor range are aware of this ruling?
    All of them open carry loaded.
    If 12031 is not applicable then you don't need an exemption.
    Overturf says 12031 applies to all public places.

    Behind the counter they may be OK, but that might even be a stretch. I could imagine a DA arguing that it would be public indecency if they were nude behind the counter, so it's in public view, making it a public place.

    For example, Modesto has an ordinance making it a misdemeanor to possess an open alcoholic beverage in public, except on the premises of places that are licensed to serve alcohol. I've seen the PD arrest people under this ordinance when they were on private property, but in public view. (This led one club to put a 7-foot wooden fence around their outdoor smoking lounge, so the patrons could drink outside. Most clubs just have a bouncer take your drink at the door.)

    In any case, under Overturf, as soon as they step out onto the public sales floor the gun shop employees would be in violation.
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Most clubs just have a bouncer take your drink at the door.)
    Ha! Until recently I was one of these bouncers at a club in Modesto. On the topic of private property, we had a policy that while you were in the club you were not allowed to have a firearm on your person. This even applied to off-duty police officers.


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    I don't mind not allowing my my sidearm, but allow me a place to store it that isn't my car. . . In Virginia it was my understanding that a business could ask you to remove your sidearm, but that they had to control it and provide for its security. . . I might be mistaken or that might have changed though.

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    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Most clubs just have a bouncer take your drink at the door.)
    Ha! Until recently I was one of these bouncers at a club in Modesto. On the topic of private property, we had a policy that while you were in the club you were not allowed to have a firearm on your person. This even applied to off-duty police officers.
    A club I worked at in Turlock had a similar policy. The owner made an exception once, and this off-duty corrections officer ended up getting arrested for brandishing. After that I understood the policy.
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    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    Most clubs just have a bouncer take your drink at the door.)
    Ha! Until recently I was one of these bouncers at a club in Modesto. On the topic of private property, we had a policy that while you were in the club you were not allowed to have a firearm on your person. This even applied to off-duty police officers.
    I would apply it to on duty officers also, unless I asked them there.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    mjones wrote:
    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    Does anyone know the legality of LOC on private property that is not yours but you are authorized to be there. The owner of the property is not present to be aware of your LOC status.
    If you are in a public place in a city or in a prohibited area of a non-city; you need to meet one of theexemptions in PC 12031 in order to carry loaded.

    I've bolded what look to be the most relevant items to this scenario.

    CA Penal Code ----------

    12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
    he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
    incorporated city
    or in any public place or on any public street in a
    prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
    The bolding of the above section is a bit distracting - remember when applying facts to 12031 you must apply the judicial construction in People v. Knight and its progeny!

    You may carry loaded guns in all parts of unincorporated areas without violating 12031, including public places, public streets, and vehicles, unless and only unless, the locality (i.e., County, not state law) has prohibited shooting in that place.

    Obviously it pays to research local law! But if you happen to be in an unincorporated area, unless local law probits shooting thus making the area "prohibited" within the narrow meaning of 12031, not only is your conduct lawful, but it is unlawful and civilly actionable conduct for police to demand that you surrender your gun for inspection to see if it is loaded.

  23. #23
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    mjones wrote:
    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    Does anyone know the legality of LOC on private property that is not yours but you are authorized to be there. The owner of the property is not present to be aware of your LOC status.
    If you are in a public place in a city or in a prohibited area of a non-city; you need to meet one of theexemptions in PC 12031 in order to carry loaded.

    I've bolded what look to be the most relevant items to this scenario.

    CA Penal Code ----------

    12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
    he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
    incorporated city
    or in any public place or on any public street in a
    prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
    The bolding of the above section is a bit distracting - remember when applying facts to 12031 you must apply the judicial construction in People v. Knight and its progeny!

    You may carry loaded guns in all parts of unincorporated areas without violating 12031, including public places, public streets, and vehicles, unless and only unless, the locality (i.e., County, not state law) has prohibited shooting in that place.

    Obviously it pays to research local law! But if you happen to be in an unincorporated area, unless local law probits shooting thus making the area "prohibited" within the narrow meaning of 12031, not only is your conduct lawful, but it is unlawful and civilly actionable conduct for police to demand that you surrender your gun for inspection to see if it is loaded.

  24. #24
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    mjones wrote:
    SomeGuyInCali wrote:
    Does anyone know the legality of LOC on private property that is not yours but you are authorized to be there. The owner of the property is not present to be aware of your LOC status.
    If you are in a public place in a city or in a prohibited area of a non-city; you need to meet one of theexemptions in PC 12031 in order to carry loaded.

    I've bolded what look to be the most relevant items to this scenario.

    CA Penal Code ----------

    12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
    he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
    incorporated city
    or in any public place or on any public street in a
    prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
    The bolding in the above section is distracting - remember that when you apply facts to 12031, to read 12031 as judicially construed in California thru People v. Knight and its progeny.

    12031 only makes it generally unlawful to carry loaded guns in public places and steets in incorporated areas; for 12031 to make public places and public streets off limits to loaded open carry the locality (i.e., by County ordinance, not state law) must explicitly prohibit shooting in the portion of the locality.

    If an unincorporated locality has not prohibited shooting specifically in the area where the street or public place "is," then 12031 does not ban carrying loaded guns in the place whether on your person or in a vehicle.

    In unincorporated areas then, except in prohibited areas,it is unlawful and civilly actionable for police to detain a gun carrier to demand to inspect the load condition of the gun. Additionally, mistaken belief by police that the unincorporated area is "prohibited"within the meaning of 12031 will not defeat application of the exclusionary rule to evidence of wrongdoing or contraband (e.g., drugs, unregistered or illegal guns, etc.) found by the police as a result of the unlawful effort to carry out a 12031 inspection.




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    Theseus wrote:
    I don't mind not allowing my my sidearm, but allow me a place to store it that isn't my car. . . In Virginia it was my understanding that a business could ask you to remove your sidearm, but that they had to control it and provide for its security. . . I might be mistaken or that might have changed though.
    Nope, no such rule ever existed. I doubt any state has such a rule.

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