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Thread: ATF raid in Alexandria

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    http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...lexandria.html

    The article:

    "Federal agents seized at least 75 guns in a raid Thursday.
    John Walker, 50, of Alexandria, is accused of setting up an operation to illegally convert semiautomatic weapons into fully automatic weapons, according to the BATFE. Such weapons frequently fall into the hands of criminals, giving them far more firepower than the police, agents said.

    An undercover ATF agent purchased an AK-47 in the parking lot of a popular family restaurant. It had been altered to fire dozens of bullets with a single press of the trigger,
    That led to the search of Walker's home, where agents said they found a cache of rifles, Uzis, AK-47s, vintage machine guns and a military standard AR-15-equipped grenade launcher. Some of the weapons will be difficult to trace because serial numbers have been removed.

    Agents believe Walker, described as a weapons collector, had been running his conversion operation for a while, according to court documents.

    Authorities also believe Walker used the parking lot of a Safeway grocery store near his home to make illegal gun transactions, according to court documents."

  2. #2
    Founder's Club Member Skeptic's Avatar
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    Alexandria?

    Heck why didn't he do it directly in front of ATF HQ? And here I worry about getting caught driving on a road that might be a National Park.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    We need to be out in front condemning this behavior.

    I know he's innocent until proven guilty. And I, frankly, wish I had the know-how to do this conversion.

    However, the behavior is illegal. As law-abiding gun owners, we need to show that we are willing to work within laws, and that we condemn those who don't.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Tess wrote:
    We need to be out in front condemning this behavior.

    I know he's innocent until proven guilty. And I, frankly, wish I had the know-how to do this conversion.

    However, the behavior is illegal. As law-abiding gun owners, we need to show that we are willing to work within laws, and that we condemn those who don't.
    The procedure to do it is simple and straightforward Tess.

    Yes it is illegal but hasn't always been so and isn't necessarily evil.

    I agree that we can't condone it as a whole, I don't think condemning it is appropriate either. Sometimes you need to sit back, be quiet and think to yourself...Boys will be boys,

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    I think this is one case where, if the allegations are true, we can be pretty safe condemning the behavior. Even if we consider the law to be wrong, it's still wrong to break it.

    So, I'm not gonna go with the "boys will be boys" approach. This blows "youthful indiscretion" out of the water.

    ~ Boyd

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    TexasNative wrote:
    I think this is one case where, if the allegations are true, we can be pretty safe condemning the behavior. Even if we consider the law to be wrong, it's still wrong to break it.
    Yep...you might be right Texan!

    Shouldn't ever break a law. Just image what might happens when people stop obeying the master. Frightening, just frightening.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    TexasNative wrote:
    I think this is one case where, if the allegations are true, we can be pretty safe condemning the behavior. Even if we consider the law to be wrong, it's still wrong to break it.
    Yep...you might be right Texan!

    Shouldn't ever break a law. Just image what might happens when people stop obeying the master. Frightening, just frightening.
    You are so right Nap, imagine the colonists disobeying the King's law. We would have chaos.

    The "rule of law" only holds true as far as the law is just and not in conflict with the natural rights of men. Or should I suppose Tex would turn in his Jewish neighbors because the law required him to do so? Dayam Tex, you are from Texas right :^)?

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    So you guys think that armed insurrection is the way to go at this point?

    I'll have to say have at it. One of the guys that'll be fighting you on the other side is me. If that's what you truly believe, then you're a danger to this country and your fellow freedom-loving gun rights activists.

    Fortunately for now, thinking about such things is fine. Acting on that sentiment, including encouraging others, is certainly a crime. So if you're going to go down that road, you damn sure better win, 'cause otherwise, you'll be dangling in the wind.

    ~ Boyd

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    TexasNative wrote:
    So you guys think that armed insurrection is the way to go at this point?

    I'll have to say have at it. One of the guys that'll be fighting you on the other side is me. If that's what you truly believe, then you're a danger to this country and your fellow freedom-loving gun rights activists.

    Fortunately for now, thinking about such things is fine. Acting on that sentiment, including encouraging others, is certainly a crime. So if you're going to go down that road, you damn sure better win, 'cause otherwise, you'll be dangling in the wind.

    ~ Boyd
    You must be reading two different boards.
    No one other than you, is talking about armed insurrection.
    My exact words were "Boys will be boys".

    We were discussing condemning him or not, Not taking over the world. Looks like the real danger to this country is a methane cloud from all that bullsh!t you just posted.



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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    Yeah, ignore Nep's post.

    And insulting others usually means you're out of argument. Boys that break the law, especially felonies, end up in prison where they belong. It's called the rule of law.

    ~ Boyd

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    TexasNative wrote:
    Yeah, ignore Nep's post.

    And insulting others usually means you're out of argument. Boys that break the law, especially felonies, end up in prison where they belong. It's called the rule of law.

    ~ Boyd
    Well...no! I insult people I don't like all the time!

    What happens to him is a matter of law. Ain't my problem. The issue is still if I'm going to condemn him or not...and I'm not!

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    TexasNative wrote:
    So you guys think that armed insurrection is the way to go at this point?

    I'll have to say have at it. One of the guys that'll be fighting you on the other side is me. If that's what you truly believe, then you're a danger to this country and your fellow freedom-loving gun rights activists.

    Fortunately for now, thinking about such things is fine. Acting on that sentiment, including encouraging others, is certainly a crime. So if you're going to go down that road, you damn sure better win, 'cause otherwise, you'll be dangling in the wind.

    ~ Boyd
    Who said anything about armed insurrection being the way to go at this time?


    But, I am sure that is the enigma which faced our founding fathers also. It Jefferson who said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshedfrom time to timewith the blood ofpatriots and tyrants."

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    I don't disagree that boys will be boys. Boys do stuff like converting guns illegally (or other dangerous behavior). The part to be condemned is the selling of these. It ceases to be an individual's decision about how to live his own life when he starts selling them for (allegedly) nefarious purposes. Selling a full-auto weapon in a parking lot to someone you don't know is damned irresponsible, besides being illegal and stupid.

    I condemn the transfer, not the conversion.


    Yes, the law is wrong. But flaunting it, and distributing, indicate a disrespect for society that I am not willing to tolerate.

    Now, if you want to accept all illegal behavior, you are, of course, free to do so. I would then doubt your ability to accept enough responsibility to understand the limits of appropriate behavior. Just my $0.02.

    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Tess wrote:
    I don't disagree that boys will be boys. Boys do stuff like converting guns illegally (or other dangerous behavior). The part to be condemned is the selling of these. It ceases to be an individual's decision about how to live his own life when he starts selling them for (allegedly) nefarious purposes. Selling a full-auto weapon in a parking lot to someone you don't know is damned irresponsible, besides being illegal and stupid.

    I condemn the transfer, not the conversion.


    Yes, the law is wrong. But flaunting it, and distributing, indicate a disrespect for society that I am not willing to tolerate.

    Now, if you want to accept all illegal behavior, you are, of course, free to do so. I would then doubt your ability to accept enough responsibility to understand the limits of appropriate behavior. Just my $0.02.
    Tess, I agree and disagree with you.
    Yes, he did break the law. Yes it was stupid and in fact he should receive a Darwin award. Yes, I think the law is stupid, but it is the law. I wouldn't break it because the consequences are severe and I have little intrest in a full auto weapon. If I did I'd just pay the damn tax and buy one legally.

    As to selling them for a nefarious purposes, we don't know that. We can only ASSUME and you know what that means.

    I won't condone it, I just won't condemn him for it.

    Yes, I do accept some illegal behavior. When I see someone not wearing a seat belt, I smile.

    When I read about someone refusing to answer the census I get a big smile.

    When I see someone reaming out their catalytic converter, I laugh.

    It depends on WHAT the harm in the lawless behavior is.

    So far, all I know about this case is one dumba$$ breaking a few tax laws. It goes on in every city in this country, every day and very few of those guns end up being used in a violent crime.

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    Tess wrote:
    Yes, the law is wrong. But flaunting it, and distributing, indicate a disrespect for society that I am not willing to tolerate.

    Now, if you want to accept all illegal behavior, you are, of course, free to do so. I would then doubt your ability to accept enough responsibility to understand the limits of appropriate behavior. Just my $0.02.
    Disrespect for a bad law is disrespect for the State, not for society. Don't confuse the two.

    This guy was probably selling guns to known criminals, which is bad. But the laws he is accused of breaking are worse, and have done far more damage to society than the petty criminals he was selling too.

    Put me on a jury for this guy's trial, and I will judge the law as well as him, which is fair enough, I think.

    To TexasNative: I didn't read anything here supporting armed insurrection. You are being dramatic.

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    No, the colonists disobeying the King's law wasn't an armed insurrection, was it? That's why I say, once you start going down that road, you damn sure better win.

    ~ Boyd

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Tess wrote:
    Yes, the law is wrong. But flaunting it, and distributing, indicate a disrespect for society that I am not willing to tolerate.

    Now, if you want to accept all illegal behavior, you are, of course, free to do so. I would then doubt your ability to accept enough responsibility to understand the limits of appropriate behavior. Just my $0.02.
    Disrespect for a bad law is disrespect for the State, not for society. Don't confuse the two.

    This guy was probably selling guns to known criminals, which is bad. But the laws he is accused of breaking are worse, and have done far more damage to society than the petty criminals he was selling too.

    Put me on a jury for this guy's trial, and I will judge the law as well as him, which is fair enough, I think.

    To TexasNative: I didn't read anything here supporting armed insurrection. You are being dramatic.
    It is one act of stupidity to make FA for yourself, which is illegal.

    It is another, giant act of stupidity to make FA for others, which is breaking the same laws, it just proves you are dumber.

    Had he been only doing it for himself, he probably never would have been caught (not saying it is right, wrong, whatever).

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    Yeah, ignore Nep's post.

    And insulting others usually means you're out of argument. Boys that break the law, especially felonies, end up in prison where they belong. It's called the rule of law.

    ~ Boyd
    Tex, we are both on the same side. The rationale I was trying to point out is whether the law is just. Personally if I knew someone who had an illegal full auto I would not turn him in unless I believed he was going to be using it for illegal/immoral purposes. Which is the same position I would take with my Jewish neighbors. The law is unjust. I am not advocating armed insurrection, we are not at that point. But I do hope there is a point at which YOU would consider armed insurrection :^).

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Tess wrote:
    I don't disagree that boys will be boys. Boys do stuff like converting guns illegally (or other dangerous behavior). The part to be condemned is the selling of these. It ceases to be an individual's decision about how to live his own life when he starts selling them for (allegedly) nefarious purposes. Selling a full-auto weapon in a parking lot to someone you don't know is damned irresponsible, besides being illegal and stupid.

    I condemn the transfer, not the conversion.


    Yes, the law is wrong. But flaunting it, and distributing, indicate a disrespect for society that I am not willing to tolerate.

    Now, if you want to accept all illegal behavior, you are, of course, free to do so. I would then doubt your ability to accept enough responsibility to understand the limits of appropriate behavior. Just my $0.02.
    Very well put Tess !! I make my own beer, but can't sell or trade it. I cook my own food, but can't sell or trade it. Hunt my own game, but can't sell or trade it. Make my own explosives/fireworks, but can't sell or trade it. Make my own ammunition, but can't sell or trade it. But I can't make my own guns, why is that ???

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Tess wrote: But I can't make my own guns, why is that ???
    Actually Nep...you can make your own guns, just can't sell or trade them. What you can't make are full auto (Without the required permits)

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    TexasNative wrote:
    No, the colonists disobeying the King's law wasn't an armed insurrection, was it? That's why I say, once you start going down that road, you damn sure better win.

    ~ Boyd
    You can tell the difference between civil disobedience and armed insurrection, right?

    Authoritarian people can't tell the difference. To the authoritarian, Rosa Parks refusing to give up a bus seat is a violent act against authority, and must be met with violence. Authoritarians often get overdramatic about things and blow them out of proportion in order to justify the overkill response they make. The authoritarian thinks that "respect for the law" is more important than individual liberty, even when the law is wrong.

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    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    You just made that up, right. Tomahawk? I mean, it sounds very authoritative, but what's your basis for that claim?

    As it happens, I believe that we should work to change wrong laws, not just pick and choose which ones we want to obey.

    ~ Boyd

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    You just made that up, right. Tomahawk? I mean, it sounds very authoritative, but what's your basis for that claim?

    As it happens, I believe that we should work to change wrong laws, not just pick and choose which ones we want to obey.

    ~ Boyd
    So I take it you'll be turning in your Jewish neighbors, while we try to get the law changed of course :^). The rule of law only works if obeying the law does not cause one to violate a greater Natural, or God given law.

    An example would be obeying the speed limit even though you'd like to go faster. Or going over the speed limit because you're driving your friend to a hospital because he's having a heart attack.....

  24. #24
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    No one's rounding up my Jewish neighbors, Nep. I understand your point, but you're missing mine: I don't believe our laws are anywhere near the degree you describe.

    ~ Boyd

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    TexasNative wrote:
    No one's rounding up my Jewish neighbors, Nep. I understand your point, but you're missing mine: I don't believe our laws are anywhere near the degree you describe.

    ~ Boyd
    Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Expand your thought a bit....

    The law against full auto is wrong. It violates the 2A IMHO. If someone made a full auto I would look the other way. Selling it to unknown persons... Now that I might very well have a problem with. I say might, because we get into this whole background check/records keeping pseudo gun registration issue.......

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