imported post
VegasGeorge wrote:
I don't doubt that Tim is right on the technical legal issues he raises in his post. However, there are lots of instances where I don't want our Metro officers to feel totally constrained by legal technicalities.
Umm, legal "technicalities?" They are called LAW enforcement officers for a reason. Not "Opinion Enforcement Officers" or "Keep George Safe Officers."
Their job is to protect me, and in my mind that responsibility comes first.
No, actually that's not their job. The Supreme Court of the United States of America has ruled on more than one occasion that the police are not obligated to provide any service to you at any time. They are not responsible for your safety, even if they have the ability to provide it.
Cops catch bad guys after the fact. People are responsible to protect themselves. No one else is obliged (or even capable) of doing it for them.
It appears obvious to me that Tim was making every effort to test the technical legal limits of his right to carry.
Tim already knows the "legal limits of his right to carry." That's why we have public laws and not secret laws. Everyone is free to read and understand them.
Tim was exercising that intrinsic right in a way that appears to be unpopular with some in the law enforcement community (and apparently also the Las Vegas gun community if the Nevada Shooters group is a representative sample).
That's OK, but it obviously and predictably resulted in more trouble than necessary.
The same sort of trouble that was caused when those pesky blacks thought they could drink from white drinking fountains, sit in the front of the bus, or send their kids to "white" schools.
The same sort of trouble that those uppity women caused thinking they had a right to vote.
The same sort of trouble those dirty jews caused when they didn't think they should wear stars on their clothes, or produce their "papers" on demand.
I think that a lesson in American civics, common law, and civil rights might be in order. Rights are not only rights when they're popular, convenient, or palatable to the government.
I always carry my photo ID (NV drivers license), my Nevada CFP, and the Blue Card for the gun I'm carrying. I am more than happy to immediately produce those for inspection on request. I will produce them for an officer, and I will produce them for anyone else who expresses a concern about the presence of my firearm. I want people to know who I am and that I am, in fact, one of the good guys.
The fact that you choose to waive your rights does not obligate others to follow you in lockstep or "face the consequences."
By your logic, police shouldn't need warrants, as any "good guys" should just let them search through their home, computer, safe deposit box, wife's underwear drawer, or body cavities, if they've nothing to hide.
That's because I'm all too aware that there are lots of bad guys out there, and I don't want to be mistaken for one of them.
Well, you see, here in America, the way to not be mistaken for a bad guy is to not be a bad guy. We have this whole system based on a presumption of innocence. It means that the government doesn't get to violate your rights, detain you, incarcerate you, or otherwise bother you unless they have a level of proof commensurate with the actions taken.
In the case of a "Terry" stop, that's Reasonable Articulable Suspicion. In the case of arrest/detention, that's Probable Cause. In the case of inprisonment, that's Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt as adjudicate by a Jury of Your Peers.
See how those Founding Fathers really thought through the stuff you seem to think is a brand new concept?
It would have been nice if God had issued us white hats and black hats like the director of an old western movie. But He didn't. So, officers and folks in general have a right to be cautious and fearful when they see me with a weapon.
You bet they have a right to be cautious or even fearful. They have a right to any emotion they want to experience. They don't have a right to violate the civil rights and legal protections of their fellow citizens. If they had chosen to follow and observe Tim, fine. They didn't. They illegally detained him. They illegally searched him. They illegally questioned him. They illegally seized his property.
The truth is, open carry although legal is unusual. I'm the one who is doing something different. I feel I have an obligation to willingly reassure anyone who asks by producing my credentials.
Being different does not carry the obligations you seem to ascribe. If I am not violating your rights or those of others, I'm under no obligation to "prove" that I'm "OK" in someone else's eyes. I can wear the clothes I want, hairstyle I want, jewelry or tattoos I want. Congregate with the people I want. Hold the opinions (and speak them) I want, and I don't owe you - Las vegas Metro Police Deapartment - or anyone else an accounting for that. I am accountable to my God, and those friends and family to whom I choose to be accountable.
It looks like the officers over reacted in the way they initially contacted Tim. But, it also looks to me like Tim failed to act reasonably under the circumstances.
I agree. I think Tim was far too cooperative given the circumstances. I would have been much hotter under the collar, but maybe that's just my Irish-Italian temper. I don't take it lightly when government bureaucrats feel they can trample all over my rights whenever it suits them.
To sum up, your whole post can be summed up as:
"You have to go along, to get along."
While that might be great advice for those wanting to fit in to a social situation. It is incredible bad advice when it comes to government employees who are whittling away your rights day by day, year by year.
Bob