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Thread: Madison mayor demands parents' consent to police searches of homes for guns!

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    ACLU of WI does not like this, nor should anyone.

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    Hang on officer before you come in, step back so I can toss my constitutional rights out the door.

    BUT if you're smart and you don't let them in, then the sheep community you live in shuns you for it. Why is it that parents or a whole community for that matter thinks that police/government needs to do what parents have been doing for more than a hundred years?:quirky

    If your being a good parent you should know if your child has issues that need to be dealt with or if your child could possibly be hiding illegal weapons in your house. So if those things are possibilities then you need to be checking into it not the police or the government of any sort!

    You gave them life, so your responsible for it! At least until they're 18yrs old.

    RESPONSIBILITY: It's a word they need to add to their parental vocabulary!

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    With the number of laws steadily increasing limiting how parents can discipline their children, I can't hold it against anyone if their child gets out of hand. We, as a society, seem to expect people to parent well without allowing them to have the tools to do so.

    Anyhow, to the direct topic, sounds like a bunch of BS. Not that far off from normal tactics used in a traffic stop though, to be honest..."mind if I search your car?" and the "you don't have anything to hide, do you?" follow up. It ain't right, but it shouldn't surprise anyone. Mind if I search your bedroom?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    dumbfounded,,,well found dumb.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
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    He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither.

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    A key to making it work is recruiting active support from neighborhood elders, clergy and other leaders to help police persuade parents to permit searches, said Michael Scott, director of the UW-Madison Center for Problem-Oriented Policing.
    Any so called neighbor who asks me to surrender my rights so the state can better raise my children is not my neighbor.

    It's nothing new though. They can always ask and you can always tell them to take a hike. "No I don't have anything to hide, but I also have nothing to show."

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    "A key to making it work is recruiting active support from neighborhood elders, clergy and other leaders to help police persuade parents to permit searches, said Michael Scott, director of the UW-Madison Center for Problem-Oriented Policing."

    They want clergy to support people to give up their rights? Unfortunately I think some clergy may fall into the trap and will persuade people to go along with this government expansion of power.

    Leaders who go along with this need to be taught a lesson in protected rights and the importance of NEVER NEVER compromising them for any reason. One has nothing to gain by consenting to a police search, EVER.

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    Not to be taken as a racial statement, but it appears that this is mostly aimed at black neighborhoods and families. However it could happen in any neighborhood.
    Personally I'd meet that at the door with, "Do you mind if I search YOUR childs bedroom"?
    Parenting starts with, guess who? My parents never had any difficulty with searching through MY things, but then again I never gave them real reason too.
    Any parent that can't tell that his child is slipping down the wrong path, isn't one.
    This just seems to me another "Sneakimus maximus" method of the Socialist Demogogary in order to violate the 4th amendment.
    Keep your powder dry! And your ears and eyes open!
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson

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    MIght as well do cavity search for people walking on the streets.

    People might be hiding something, anything.

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Mine are also grown but like you SFC I would have done the same thing. Spanking, yeah, spare the rod and spoil the child is what my Grandparents always said. After the first time with my daughters all it took was "The Look". Let some LEO in my house without a search warrant? Not on your life. And it even said that the "Evidence wouldn't be used in a case unless it had been found to have been used in a crime? BS it's called "Illegal search and siezure"
    Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Thomas Jefferson

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    It's not illegal with consent.

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    You have only the rights that you defend.

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    "Happiness is a warm shotgun!!"
    "I am neither a pessimist nor a cynic. I am, rather, a realist."
    "The most dangerous things I've ever encountered were a Second Lieutenant with a map and a compass and a Private who was bored and had time on his hands."

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    Wisconsin State Journal

    FRI., JUN 26, 2009 - 9:17 AM

    Mayor wants landlord registration, parent consent for gun searches

    By STEVEN VERBURG
    608-252-6118


    sverburg@madison.com

    Madison police would enlist parental permission to search for guns in their children’s bedrooms in one part of a multifaceted plan outlined Thursday by Mayor Dave Cieslewicz.

    The search and seizure proposal is one of a long list initiatives — some new and some old — that Cieslewicz wants examined in the wake of a sharp increase in gun violence on the south and west sides of Madison this year.

    “We’ve got to be tough,” Cieslewicz said. “We’ve got to pull every enforcement lever we have to deal with people who deal drugs and people who fire guns.”

    It won’t work without contributions from community leaders, clergy and landlords, he said.

    Utilizing parental consent to a search instead of a search warrant approved by a judge is a way to move quickly — before the guns can do damage — when police are tipped off to the location of a weapon in the hands of a juvenile.

    A key to making it work is recruiting active support from neighborhood elders, clergy and other leaders to help police persuade parents to permit searches, said Michael Scott, director of the UW-Madison Center for Problem-Oriented Policing.

    Scott was a St. Louis Police Department administrator in 1993 when the department adopted a similar program. As part of the deal with parents, when guns were found, there was no prosecution, except in extreme cases where the guns had already been used in serious crimes, Scott said.

    “It makes getting guns out of the hands of kids the highest priority, an even higher priority than prosecution,” Scott said.
    Wray has said that the community must break through a “no-snitch” culture made up of people who won’t report wrongdoers to police.


    “His interest is to connect in particular with young, African-American males and have some impact so that they can come to the table and understand the ethics and values of this community,” said Police Department spokesman Joel DeSpain. “We have to find those people in the community who can really get the ear of the young people.”

    Part of the problem lies with individuals and families who sometimes live in bigger cities and sometimes live here, he said.

    On June 9, a day after police held a news conference asking the public for help controlling rapidly increasing gun incidents, 17-year-old Karamee Collins Jr. was shot and killed on Leland Drive in the Meadowood neighborhood.

    On Thursday, classmates of Collins from Memorial High School were hanging out at West Towne Mall where they talked about the shooting, gang activity in school and an influx of residents from Chicago where violence is a more common occurrence.

    Michelle Tazifua, who will be a sophomore in the fall, said parents allowing police searches would only breed mistrust within families and wouldn’t solve the problem.

    “If my mom went through my stuff without my permission, I would be upset,” Tazifua said. “If you have something to say, just say it. Don’t hide stuff because the situation will get worse and worse.”

    Weston Tran, who will be a senior at Madison West High School, said there should be more laws banning guns. He agreed with the idea of parental-consent searches. “I don’t have anything to hide from my parents,” he said.

    Chris Ahmuty, director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Wisconsin, said consent searches can present pitfalls, including higher risk of racial profiling. “Policing may not sacrifice constitutional rights for convenience’s sake.”

    This year’s sudden surge in violence echoes events of two years ago. At that time, a series of homicides exposed broad neighborhood concerns about offenses such as loitering and loud music. After a series of heated public meetings, the city added 30 positions to the Police Department.

    Cieslewicz said the city will continue to strengthen public safety, but another surge in police numbers isn’t the answer.
    “Any experience in any city around the country would tell you you don’t solve the problem of crime by flooding the area with police, because you can’t do it forever, and it just pushes the people who are causing problems to other places in the city,” he said.


    Cieslewicz wants the police chief to convene a multi-jurisdictional task force targeting gun violence and those suspected of contributing to it.

    Other parts of the mayor’s plan are intended to build on existing neighborhood efforts and city initiatives to monitor neighborhoods and deploy police to problem areas.

    Neighborhood groups, the city departments of civil rights and community services would be involved along with landlords, churches and neighborhood associations, according to a three-page outline of the plan.

    Cieslewicz also is calling for a program under which landlords would register their properties and provide contact information for a local person responsible for each property.

    Absentee landlords and apartment owners who don’t screen out troublemakers are considered a major factor in neighborhood crime.

    “We’ve made progress, but not enough progress when we witness what’s happened in the last few weeks,” Cieslewicz said. “We have one of the safest cities in America, but it doesn’t feel that way if you are in a particular neighborhood where crime is up.”

    State Journal reporter Matthew
    DeFour contributed to this report.

    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    double tap, sorry
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Cliff Notes

    .....in the wake of a sharp increase in gun violence on the south and west sides of Madison this year.

    “We’ve got to be tough,” Cieslewicz said. “We’ve got to pull every enforcement lever we have to deal with people who deal drugs and people who fire guns.”

    “It makes getting guns out of the hands of kids the highest priority, ...


    “His interest is to connect in particular with young, African-American males ...

    Part of the problem lies with individuals and families who sometimes live in bigger cities and sometimes live here, he said....

    Chris Ahmuty, director of the American Civil Liberties Union in Wisconsin, said consent searches can present pitfalls, including higher risk of racial profiling. “Policing may not sacrifice constitutional rights for convenience’s sake.”...

    Cieslewicz wants the police chief to convene a multi-jurisdictional task force targeting gun violence and those suspected of contributing to it.





    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Is this what our society is coming to?

    We can't spank our kids because it's abuse.

    But it's not abusive to have armed government officials in your home to "discipline" our kids?

    Our government is telling us that it does not even trust us to raise our own children.

    "I'm sorry ma'am, we're gonna have to come in and have a talk with little johnny. It seems you're not qualified to keep him out of trouble. We'll take it from here."



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    SFCRetired wrote:
    NightOwl wrote:
    It's not illegal with consent.
    True, but where do you draw the line? Many people have stated on here that there is no obligation to consent to search nor is there an obligation to answer questions.

    If my child's room needs searching, I'll do it, not some minion of the government who may or may not keep the promise not to prosecute.

    Scenario: You allow them to search child's room. They find a weapon that is not legal for the child to have. What is to keep them from drumming up charges against you such as "child endangerment" based on the fact that you also own weapons?

    I may be paranoid, but I don't think it is that great a stretch of the imagination to see it happening. Also seems like a wonderful means of camouflaging what could easily turn into a gun grab.
    Oh I agree, just making a point, since KansasMustang above me said it was illegal search and seizure...which it isn't.

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    This will get properly shot down by the ACLU, just like a similar proposal in (Boston? Wash, DC?) last year.

    If I recall, there is video on YouTube of pro-rights people going door-to-door in the neighborhoods educating people on their rights.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    zer0cool wrote:
    RESPONSIBILITY: It's a word they need to add to their parental vocabulary!
    +1,000,000

    I have no intention of letting an officer into my home, unless I'm the one who called him/her. Heck, someone with a badge showed up on my doorstep last week (apparently, my neighbor is getting some sort of security clearance), and rather than invite her in, I closed my door and we did the interview on my front porch.

    If the officers have enough suspicion to get a warrant, then that's one thing. But other than that, no way, no how, are they searching any part of my home.

    Besides, I've seen my son's room. No one can find anything in there - even my son. :P

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    Riana wrote:
    SNIP I have no intention of letting an officer into my home, unless I'm the one who called him/her. Heck, someone with a badge showed up on my doorstep last week (apparently, my neighbor is getting some sort of security clearance), and rather than invite her in, I closed my door and we did the interview on my front porch.

    If the officers have enough suspicion to get a warrant, then that's one thing. But other than that, no way, no how, are they searching any part of my home.
    May I gently suggest reconsidering your tactics?

    There are a number of situations where police could legallyenter your home without a warrant, and should you try to stop them, you are open to an obstruction charge.

    There are legal exceptions to the warrant clause in the 4A. Remember that the 4A only prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures. The government has carved out a number of exceptions to the warrant clause regarding a home under the idea that the exceptions are reasonable.

    I recommend looking into it. Here is a link to the first google return page to the key words: warrant exception house. http://tinyurl.com/mrr7pa

    I might ask for a warrant or the exigent circumstance. I'd refuse consent in all cases. Of course, the maxim, "If he has to ask, he probably doesn't have legal authority" applies.


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    I'd like to pick your brains. Personally if I had a kid they would be responsible with guns, and I would not let the POLICE into my home period! But let's pick this apart.... Inner city drug neighborhoods, most adolescent males have no father in the home and are "parented" by gangs and drug dealers. So they go out and shoot and shoot till the "anti's" scream bloody murder for more legislation that hurts YOU and ME, the law abiding citizens and the rural areas with kids who know how to use guns responsibly. Remember every time a kid or anyone else uses a gun in a crime it is more fuel for us to loose our rights. The pro gun group says: punish the criminals, not the law abiding citizens. So should we let these gang banging kids go out and kill more people so we can then after the fact (and someone is dead) send them to prison? Or is is safer for single ghetto mom who is stupid enough (or perhaps smart enough) to let the police in (it is her section 8 castle) to nip the problem in the bud in the first place? Now don't get me wrong I see this as the police once again wanting to push the envelope, but as long as there is no threats and mom wants to let them in that is her business. Like one poster said they are targeting the inner city, but the problem is usually not in rural areas save a fluke like Colubine Co. Anyone have a suggestion how we can get the guns out of the hands of criminals, and that includes youthful offenders. Remember every incident is one more nail in our constitutional rights! Not that I am agreeing with this....

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