An Open Invitation to Wisconsin Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen

davegran · Jun 26, 2009

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The Hon. J.B. Van Hollen
Wisconsin State Attorney General
Department of Justice

Dear Attorney General Van Hollen,

This Saturday the 27th of June, a group of volunteers are meeting to perform a public service under the auspices of the Open Carry.Org Wisconsin Chapter.

We will be meeting at Ottawa Park, just south of Dousman at 10:00 am. Our project is to clean both sides of a 2.3 mile stretch of Hwy 67, running through the beautiful Kettle Moraine region. We will be openly carrying our sidearms in accordance with our state constitution. More details can be found here.

There will be many gun owners at this event who would like to personally thank you and shake your hand for the support you have given our Second Amendment Rights both in Wisconsin with your advisory memo of April 20 to clarify the use of the disorderly conduct charge in open carry situations, and nationally with the communication of June 11 you and 22 other Chief Legal Officers sent to Attorney General Eric Holder to express your opposition to a semi -automatic firearms prohibition.

We are extending an invitation to you and whoever else you would like to bring to join us at this event, not to pick up trash, but to give us an opportunity meet you in person and express our gratitude for your support.

If you are not able to attend because of the short notice, we will be having two more pickups this year before Nov. 1st.

Thank you from all of us and hoping to see you,

The Open Carry Crew

Woodchuck · Jun 26, 2009

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Make sure you don't have ANY part of your firearm covered, not even by a holster. That's what AG Van Hollen's office says is "concealed". I talked to his office about it June 16th. They say they have case law going back to the 30's defining concealed as "any part of the firearm covered", and yes they even said a properly OWB holstered weapon is considered concealed.

If by chance he shows up, ask him,

"In your memo you said open carry is legal in Wisconsin, but please sir tell me, without Velcro or double sided tape, how can I open carry legally?"

I really do hope you all have a great turnout and a fantastic day. It's a great thing your doing.

davegran · Jun 26, 2009

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Woodchuck wrote:

Make sure you don't have ANY part of your firearm covered, not even by a holster. That's what AG Van Hollen's office says is "concealed". I talked to his office about it June 16th. They say they have case law going back to the 30's defining concealed as "any part of the firearm covered", and yes they even said a properly OWB holstered weapon is considered concealed....

I'd like to see that opinion in writing and signed by the AG.

If that is the case, then why haven't the dozens, perhaps hundreds of people who have and are open carrying with standard holsters in Wisconsin been arrested and hauled in on Class A misdemeanor charges?

In Statute 941.23, the test for determining if a handgun in a vehicle was concealed is, if "A handgun on the seat of a car that was indiscernible from ordinary observation by a person outside, and within the immediate vicinity, of the vehicle was hidden from view for purposes of determining whether the gun was a concealed weapon...."

In other words, if the gun was recognizable as a gun, it wasn't concealed. I believe that a pistol in a belt holster passes that test.

Dave

Woodchuck · Jun 26, 2009

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Give them a call monday. WI DOJ AG's office 608-266-1221

I tried to get statute #'s or case law references but they wouldn't give me anything.

AaronS · Jun 26, 2009

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Woodchuck wrote:

Make sure you don't have ANY part of your firearm covered, not even by a holster. That's what AG Van Hollen's office says is "concealed". I talked to his office about it June 16th. They say they have case law going back to the 30's defining concealed as "any part of the firearm covered", and yes they even said a properly OWB holstered weapon is considered concealed.

If by chance he shows up, ask him,

"In your memo you said open carry is legal in Wisconsin, but please sir tell me, without Velcro or double sided tape, how can I open carry legally?"

I really do hope you all have a great turnout and a fantastic day. It's a great thing your doing.

Now come on, if a holstered gun was a concealed gun, over half of us would be busted every day. Thats just bad information. I just walked by two Milwaukee cops today at Home Depot, and my holster looked good to them. Trust me, if the two cops thought they could bust me for a crime they would have. I am sure you know that Milwaukee copsare not very "man with gun" friendly.

smithman · Jun 26, 2009

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Woodchuck wrote:

Give them a call monday. WI DOJ AG's office 608-266-1221

I tried to get statute #'s or case law references but they wouldn't give me anything.

There would be no way for private security persons to carry on the job if this was true.

The DOJ is blowing smoke.

smithman · Jun 26, 2009

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Woodchuck wrote:

Make sure you don't have ANY part of your firearm covered, not even by a holster. That's what AG Van Hollen's office says is "concealed". I talked to his office about it June 16th. They say they have case law going back to the 30's defining concealed as "any part of the firearm covered", and yes they even said a properly OWB holstered weapon is considered concealed.

I don't need to remind you that this was pre-pre-emption and pre-Article 1 section 25. Don't believe a word of it.

Brass Magnet · Jun 27, 2009

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smithman wrote:

Woodchuck wrote:

Give them a call monday. WI DOJ AG's office 608-266-1221

I tried to get statute #'s or case law references but they wouldn't give me anything.

Click to expand...

There would be no way for private security persons to carry on the job if this was true.

The DOJ is blowing smoke.

I agree. Same as local PD's telling people it's illegal when they call even though they know darn well it's not. If you called me I could tell you there is case law that allows me to run around naked. That would mean exactly as much as what they told you.... squat.

Woodchuck · Jun 27, 2009

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Brass Magnet wrote:

smithman wrote:

Woodchuck wrote:

Give them a call monday. WI DOJ AG's office 608-266-1221

I tried to get statute #'s or case law references but they wouldn't give me anything.

Click to expand...

There would be no way for private security persons to carry on the job if this was true.

The DOJ is blowing smoke.

Click to expand...

I agree. Same as local PD's telling people it's illegal when they call even though they know darn well it's not. If you called me I could tell you there is case law that allows me to run around naked. That would mean exactly as much as what they told you.... squat.

I trust you also use that logic when referring to AG's memo about open carry. I means ...."squat".

No offense but you probably aren't working at the AG's office and claim to have over 25 years of prosecuting experience.

I am not yanking anyones chain, this is REALLY what the AG's office told me.

Again here is the #

608-266-1221
Don't take my word for it, call and ask yourself.

edit to add.........Simply ask them to define "concealed" in statute 941.23.

Doug Huffman · Jun 27, 2009

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That's OK. I am not yet going to carry my Luger in its proper full-flap holster.

Woodchuck · Jun 27, 2009

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It hasn't stopped me from carrying, I'm just saying. I called the to get a definition on what constitutes "concealed" and that's really what they told me.

He also told me that because most districts were essentially broke, it would be tough to find a DA willing to try to prosecute on such a gray area.

davegran · Jun 27, 2009

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Woodchuck wrote:

....
I tried to get statute #'s or case law references but they wouldn't give me anything.

They wouldn't give you a statute number because there isn't one that defines "concealed". Take a look:

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/Statutes.html

However, the dictionary comes to the rescue:
conceal - To hide something from view
hide - prevent from being seen or discovered

Nothing too complicated there....

Dave

Flipper · Jun 27, 2009

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Who is the "he" at the DOJ that gave you the information. The DOJ doesn't respond to citizen inquiries. If information was given to you, someone violated a department rule.

Woodchuck · Jun 27, 2009

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davegran wrote:

Woodchuck wrote:

....
I tried to get statute #'s or case law references but they wouldn't give me anything.

Click to expand...

However, the dictionary comes to the rescue:
conceal - To hide something from view
hide - prevent from being seen or discovered

That definition helps nothing, a holster could be seen as "preventing from being seen".

I have a dictionary definition of a building that states "enclosed structure" too but LaCrosses Municipal Prosecutor says that a "built structure" is the definition of a building. He even said he would attempt to prosecute me if I go on a "deck or even a step" that was built and gov't owned.

Apparently our "definitions" mean nothing to gov't prosecutors. AG's office Told me this week that it is up to the local gov't to define what a building is.

davegran · Jun 27, 2009

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Woodchuck wrote:

davegran wrote:

Woodchuck wrote:

....
I tried to get statute #'s or case law references but they wouldn't give me anything.

Click to expand...

However, the dictionary comes to the rescue:
conceal - To hide something from view
hide - prevent from being seen or discovered

Click to expand...

That definition helps nothing, a holster could be seen as "preventing from being seen".

Not unless it's a holster with a flap that completely covers the gun. Have you seen anybody wearing one of those outside of the movies? Me neither.... I'm done with this conversation.

Dave

Woodchuck · Jun 27, 2009

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Just preparing ya for your call to the AG's office.

Now you may be getting remotely close to the level of frustration that I currently have with them.:banghead:

AaronS · Jun 27, 2009

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Flipper wrote:

Who is the "he" at the DOJ that gave you the information. The DOJ doesn't respond to citizen inquiries. If information was given to you, someone violated a department rule.

Yep, no citizen inquiries. It is not the AGs' job to give us this information.

Woodchuck · Jun 28, 2009

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AaronS wrote:

Flipper wrote:

Who is the "he" at the DOJ that gave you the information. The DOJ doesn't respond to citizen inquiries. If information was given to you, someone violated a department rule.

Click to expand...

Yep, no citizen inquiries. It is not the AGs' job to give us this information.

Flipper..
Wasn't smart enough to write his name down and they responded to my inquiries more than once. Don't say they don't when they do. It might not be there "job" but they did.

Anyone...
Where does one go then, if they have a question about where the "state" stands on an issue but can't find it on there own?

J.Gleason · Jun 28, 2009

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IMHO, I would say that is when someone ends up in court and the court makes a decision. If it is appealed then the SSC makes the final decision and that is where the state stands.

More than likely it will end in our favor and that is why a lot of these cases are not prosecuted.

Woodchuck · Jul 1, 2009

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You answered who would make a decision but...

Hypothetically speaking.....say someone doesn't feel like spending thousands of hours sifting through every case handled in the state....

Where does one go then, if they have a question about where the "state" stands on an issue but can't find it on there own?

More than 1 of you said it wasn't the AG's job or any of his staffs job but have failed to answer this question.

An Open Invitation to Wisconsin Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen

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