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Thread: OC at Summerfest?

  1. #1
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    I'm headed down to Summerfest this evening and it got me thinking, why not OC at Summerfest to get the word out. Is Summerfest public owned, as in the buildings, or is it private property? Do they have signs up?

    I'm going to be drinking tonight, so I wouldn't carry anyways, but other days down there I might choose to not drink. I'll look for signage tonight when I go.

    Thoughts?

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    Campaign Veteran GlockMeisterG21's Avatar
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    I doubt it as alcohol can be consumed on the entire grounds. I bet they wouldn't even let you in while carrying. IANAL but I really don't think you're going to be able to.
    “The 1911 pistol remains the service pistol of choice in the eyes of those who understand the problem. Back when we audited the FBI academy in 1947, I was told that I ought not to use my pistol in their training program because it was not fair. Maybe the first thing one should demand of his sidearm is that it be unfair.” — Col. Jeff Cooper, GUNS & AMMO, January 2002

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    yeah, that is my concern... do they consider the entire ground as the area to consume liquor, or is it right where they sell it.

    I'll look for signage while I'm there...

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    My understanding is that the entire grounds have a temporary Class B license, and carry of HANDGUNS is therefore prohibited.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    I would like to go there and OC, but I highly doubt I would be able to.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    I'm with Rick, there are as many places that sell alcohol there, as there are that don't. My best guess is that there is a license for the entire site.

    If its private property, they wouldn't let you anyways since they have security with metal detectors at every gate. If its public property, you may be able to work your way around the search if you know the law. This is of course if there is not a liquor license for the entire site.

    Good luck,

    Geoff

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    As the others said the class B liscense more than likely blankets that whole area. This is sort like what we talked about in the riversplash thread. If it is public property/event then you would have to go in there with a long gun slung over your shoulder.



    Ben

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    Regular Member Brad_Krause's Avatar
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    I believe the Henry Meyer Festival Grounds is owned by the City of Milwaukee as part of the Port Authority.

    http://www.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrar...e_09_LOREZ.pdf

    As such, you should be able to open carry on the grounds.

    A question of law is raised as to carrying a sidearm where alcoholic beverages may be sold and consumed. "Sold" is in the structure where the sale is transacted. "Consumed" would traditionally be on the property owned by a private entity and described as the "Premises" in the license application, which is defined as the building(s), room(s), and/or land area under the applicant's control. Examples outside the bar room include a porch, outdoor volleyball court, terrace, "beer garden," or lawn area, with a controlled ingress and egress.

    A beer tent or other temporary structure sells open intoxicants intended for immediate consumption in the general vicinity of the structure. (People can usually carry cups of beer outside of the beer tent without issue.) However, the premises are generally not under the direct control of the beverage seller. The license doesn't give the seller the ability to sell wherever they wish on the festival grounds, only in a designated place, and the seller has no control over any other place in the premises.

    For the Henry Meyer Festival Grounds, the public does not have to be of legal drinking age to enter and may wander about at will. The licensed beverage sellers have no control over who enters or exits the festival grounds, nor who wanders by the area they have been designated to sell at.

    Therefore, it logically follows that a person should be able to open carry a sidearm at this and most any similar festival without problem.
    Last edited by Brad_Krause; 08-21-2010 at 05:25 PM.

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    http://www.dor.state.wi.us/forms/alcohol/at-106.pdf
    9. Premises description: Describe building or buildings where alcohol beverages are to be sold and stored. The applicant must include all rooms including living quarters, if used, for the sales, service, and/or storage of alcohol beverages and records. (Alcohol beverages may be sold and stored only on the premises described.)
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/premises
    1. land, and all the built structures on it, especially when considered as a single place of business

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    After going last night I don't see it happening, they are wanding (sp) people with metal detectors on the way in... they almost tried to make me take my pocket knife back to my car (or throw it away) because they said the blade was over 3"... I told them it wasn't, they said it was. After they talked to 3 different people they finally decided that it wasn't... no one had a tape measure, but I showed them on a $1 bill like 5 times. Then after they decided to let me in they lady says that I should unclip it from the outside of my pocket and keep it hidden, WTF?

    I said if knives under 3" are allowed why should I conceal it? She looked at me puzzled as I walked away with it clipped on the outside of my pocket....

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    Brad_Krause wrote:

    As such, you should be able to open carry on the grounds. A question of law is raised as to whether or not the bathrooms are "buildings" in the traditional sense, and my non-legal opinion is they would be. It is my belief state statute prevents a person from lawfully carryinga sidearm into the bathroom.
    Brad, we were discussing this same topic in a different thread while trying to decipher the states legal definition of "Building"

    I made the point that I do not consider a restroom or a pavilion at a park a "Government or public building" becuase government business transactions or public meetings do not happenthere.
    But atown hall, fire barn, library or courthouse is what I think the legisators were going after. But again failed with poor verbiage and lack of definitions in the statute.

    Think about this a little, you need totake a dump (ordrop a yard-biscuit! Thanks Gleason)
    Are we really expected to disarm just to enter a pit toilet to stay legal? The only way we are going to get this cleared up is by being charged with an offense. Because I doubt we will get clarification on this from our A.G. or anyone else that matters anytime soon.

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    Where is the significance of a 3-inch blade in statute law, please a citation?

    There is a move afoot nationally to regulate knives away from the sheeple. I hear the prejudice echoed in your story.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Where is the significance of a 3-inch blade in statute law, please a citation?

    There is a move afoot nationally to regulate knives away from the sheeple. I hear the prejudice echoed in your story.
    Nothing I'm aware of in state statute. Milwaukee County adds a knife with a blade "of 3 inches or more" to the definition of "dangerous weapon" via ord. 63-015.


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    Nutczak wrote:
    Are we really expected to disarm just to enter a pit toilet to stay legal? The only way we are going to get this cleared up is by being charged with an offense. Because I doubt we will get clarification on this from our A.G. or anyone else that matters anytime soon.
    In Milwaukee, you are probably right. Especially at Summerfest. The MPD will be right there to arrest you and remove you from the premises. However, prosecution more than likely will not happen because taking this to court is going to mean a Federal Law suit, which the DA knows the city will not win.

    There will be the hassle of waiting for your fire arm back. Which you can rest asured it will not be in the same pristine condition it was in before it was unlawfully confiscated.

    I still believe taking this to court would make a laughing stock out of the prosecutor.

    Everytime I have ever went to the summerfest grounds for any festival the security at the gate has been very unfriendly.

    2 years ago we went to the indian summer festival. We walked through the gate with a Radio Flyer wagon for the kids and nothing was said. A few hours later some of the native American security personnel came up to us and said we had to lose the wagon or leave.

    I looked around and there were dozens of wagons being pulled around by obvious native American families. So. I said, " What about them do they have to lose the wagons or leave?" The security officer just looked at me and said nothing.

    So I said to him, " Until all of the wagon owners are made to lose the wagons or leave, I will continue using ours and I walked away without any further incidents.

    It seems they enforce the rules at random there on the grounds, but I could see them hauling one of us off just to give us the bad publicity. You know, "Only bad guys carry guns."

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    There are Port-a-Potties on the grounds; it would be a real stretch for a cop/prosecutor/judge to consider that a "building," even if it is leased by a subdivision of the state.

    Also, Brad, I agree that the festival grounds are owned by Milwaukee, and therefore they cannot prohibit long guns on the premises.

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    I went down to Summerfest today for the first time this year, because open carry is not allowed because it is considered a "class B site" but to show my support I still openly carried my holster in plain view. I had a few people come up to me and ask why I was carrying an empty holster. I explained all about open carry to them and gave them the business cards I had printed about open carry and opencarry.org only after did I do this I found out one of the men I was speaking wtih was also an avid member of open carry. So guns are a no go at Summerfest because they are a "class B site" but carry your holsters to show your support. I hope to see more people there I will be there for 3 more days this year.

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    He is right.....

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    Again, no HANDGUNS. Re-read the statute; for over a year I read that word and understood it as "firearms." There is no law stopping anyone from carrying a rifle, shotgun, or AOW into the Summerfest grounds. I do not wish to think of the response such lawful activity would solicit, however.

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    I've been a gun owner my whole adult life. I also respect the rights we have in place and hope beyond hope that one day Wisconsin will join the ranks of the majority of other states that allow Concealed Carry. In as far as open carry go's however, I dont want it at Summerfest. I've been a member of the Summerfest Security Department for 17 years now, the last 3 as a Security Supervisor. The grounds are leased from the city, are fenced and have full access control entry gates. In addition to that, beer and other alchoholic beverages may be purchased and consumed all over the grounds. While I respect the individual right to open carry, I believe in our right to deny entry to a person openly carrying. Our onsite counsel agree's. Most private gun owners receive little if any weapon retention training and with the crowds on our grounds, losing your sidearm could be a very real event. While I respect the right to open carry, dont try it at Summerfest.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    VRider911 wrote:
    Most private gun owners receive little if any weapon retention training and with the crowds on our grounds, losing your sidearm could be a very real event.
    Rider911, WELCOME to the forum. Always glad to see a new member. It IS your right to request no firearms, and we will respect that right, but I take issue with the quoted part of your statement. Many of us have gone through many hours of training including weapons retention and this statement only helps fuel the fear.





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    My gun doesn't drink. When I go to MN and enter a tavern to have a burger with my family we ALL drink soda. Why wouldn't the same logic apply at Summer Fest? It's just a matter of self-discipline-when you carry a gun you don't drink-otherwise-you go to jail. Pretty simple if you give it some thought.
    Jim Burgess
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    I'll respect your response that many have taken that kind of training. On the other side of that argument, many of the holsters I have seen folks carry are of the most basic retention that being a simple thumb snap. Not many civilians who carry, at least those I've seen, carry with a holster designed for more than a level 1 kind of weapon retention. If I saw more using holsters like the Safariland 070 SSIII or one of the new Bianchi or Galco style's, I might hold a different opinion. However, having seen what I have seen on the grounds these many years, losing a gun concealed or carried open would be a very real threat to myself, my fellow redshirts and the public. I remain with my own belief. They do not belong at Summerfest, State Fair or any other such venue.

    You have the right to your own belief's and my respect for them, but not where I have seen the worst of people up close and bear the scars to prove it.

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    VRider911: Do you think that police on the Summerfest grounds (or State Fair) should be carrying only less than lethal weapons because there are so many people in close proximity to each other?
    Should lethal intervention be required, there are armed police outside the grounds who could be called in to help,faster than if someone calls 911.




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    VRider911 wrote:
    On the other side of that argument, many of the holsters I have seen folks carry are of the most basic retention that being a simple thumb snap.

    That would include Police

    Not many civilians who carry, at least those I've seen, carry with a holster designed for more than a level 1 kind of weapon retention.

    In all fairness, If I know how to take a fire arm out of one of those holsters, it really doesn't matter what type of retention it has.
    However, I can respect the fact that alcohol is sold and consumed on the property and until the laws change I will not carry at Summer fest.

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    I can see VRiders point. I have a Bianchi size 15 for my Ruger SR9. It has a rubber band on it that I can hardly take off myself. My Taurus 38 holster has a snap that is pretty tight. I wonder too if it is legal on city property to OC at one of these Summerfest things. Another consideration is if there are people all over the place drinking beer you might have some goofy half drunk jerk start shooting off his mouth when he sees you OC. I dont think I would want to OC .

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