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OC at Summerfest?

comp45acp

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My gun doesn't drink. When I go to MN and enter a tavern to have a burger with my family we ALL drink soda. Why wouldn't the same logic apply at Summer Fest? It's just a matter of self-discipline-when you carry a gun you don't drink-otherwise-you go to jail. Pretty simple if you give it some thought.
 

VRider911

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I'll respect your response that many have taken that kind of training. On the other side of that argument, many of the holsters I have seen folks carry are of the most basic retention that being a simple thumb snap. Not many civilians who carry, at least those I've seen, carry with a holster designed for more than a level 1 kind of weapon retention. If I saw more using holsters like the Safariland 070 SSIII or one of the new Bianchi or Galco style's, I might hold a different opinion. However, having seen what I have seen on the grounds these many years, losing a gun concealed or carried open would be a very real threat to myself, my fellow redshirts and the public. I remain with my own belief. They do not belong at Summerfest, State Fair or any other such venue.

You have the right to your own belief's and my respect for them, but not where I have seen the worst of people up close and bear the scars to prove it.
 

Mr.arker

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VRider911: Do you think that police on the Summerfest grounds (or State Fair) should be carrying only less than lethal weapons because there are so many people in close proximity to each other?
Should lethal intervention be required, there are armed police outside the grounds who could be called in to help,faster than if someone calls 911.
 

J.Gleason

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VRider911 wrote:
On the other side of that argument, many of the holsters I have seen folks carry are of the most basic retention that being a simple thumb snap.

That would include Police

Not many civilians who carry, at least those I've seen, carry with a holster designed for more than a level 1 kind of weapon retention.

In all fairness, If I know how to take a fire arm out of one of those holsters, it really doesn't matter what type of retention it has.
However, I can respect the fact that alcohol is sold and consumed on the property and until the laws change I will not carry at Summer fest.
 

JG

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I can see VRiders point. I have a Bianchi size 15 for my Ruger SR9. It has a rubber band on it that I can hardly take off myself. :lol:My Taurus 38 holster has a snap that is pretty tight. I wonder too if it is legal on city property to OC at one of these Summerfest things. Another consideration is if there are people all over the place drinking beer you might have some goofy half drunk jerk start shooting off his mouth when he sees you OC. I dont think I would want to OC .
 

Mugenlude

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^^^ Just because you choose not to, doesn't mean other have the same feelings. For me places where people get out of control are places that I would want to carry. Obviously VRider911 has seen a bunch of stupid people doing stupid things at Summerfest, so the need is there. If there are armed Police on the ground, I don't see why law-abiding citizens shouldn't be able to do they same.
 

hugh jarmis

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In as far as open carry go's however, I dont want it at Summerfest. I've been a member of the Summerfest Security Department for 17 years now, the last 3 as a Security Supervisor. The grounds are leased from the city, are fenced and have full access control entry gates. In addition to that, beer and other alchoholic beverages may be purchased and consumed all over the grounds. While I respect the individual right to open carry, I believe in our right to deny entry to a person openly carrying. Our onsite counsel agree's. Most private gun owners receive little if any weapon retention training and with the crowds on our grounds, losing your sidearm could be a very real event. While I respect the right to open carry, dont try it at Summerfest.
A couple of thoughts. First, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have an open carriedfirearm when you are pressed shoulder to shoulder, ass to ass, chest to chest with other people. During the day, you can walk around summerfest and not have to deal with that, but take an weekend night for example, you are better of being concealled.

Open carry doesn't make ANY sense compared to concealled carry when you are pressed in like sardines. That is when concealled carry makes PERFECT sense.

Being a member of the security detail I'm sure you are well aware of the crime against law abiding citizens that happens walking FROM summerfest to their cars.

As for your comment about training. I think Hubert has already adequately shot that down, but I KNOW you have NO data on the weapons training that the general gun-owning population has. I know this, because thatkind of data does not exist.You may have a few anecdotes, but you are just making stuff up assuming what kind of training people have. If you want to perpetuate myth. This isn't the place.

And welcome to the forum. During the day, open-carry makes perfect sense at Summerfest. During the crowded evening times, concealled carry makes PERFECT sense? Don't you agree?
 

hugh jarmis

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I'll respect your response that many have taken that kind of training. On the other side of that argument, many of the holsters I have seen folks carry are of the most basic retention that being a simple thumb snap.
Just how many holsters have you seen people out carrying???

I have yet to see anyone besides my girlfriend out randomly open carrying in public. How can you experience be much different? How can you say you have a representative sample to base your opinion on? Go to an OC cookout most EVERYONE has a retention holster. Where do you see all these "civilians out carrying non-retention holsters?"

Not many civilians who carry, at least those I've seen, carry with a holster designed for more than a level 1 kind of weapon retention. If I saw more using holsters like the Safariland 070 SSIII or one of the new Bianchi or Galco style's, I might hold a different opinion.

Well then wouldn't a more prudent opinion be that given the security at summerfest entrance gates, if you see someone with a poorly retained weapon, deny THEM entry instead of a blanket non-sense ban on everyone? Even those who have a properly retained weapon?
However, having seen what I have seen on the grounds these many years, losing a gun concealed or carried open would be a very real threat to myself, my fellow redshirts and the public.
How so? How is it a threat??? Please explain? As asked earlier, doesn't the police having firearms on the grounds pose an identical threat???
I remain with my own belief. They do not belong at Summerfest,
How would you suggest people protect themselves walking from summerfest to their vehicles? We know of the assaults that have occurred in those areas? Is your advice to stay home?

State Fair or any other such venue.


Please explain to me what the difference is between walking down a busy street in say, downtown milwaukee, or the riverwalk, or cedarburg and walking around at State Fair?

It seems as if your assertion is that anywhere where there are lots of people, you don't need a gun? Really? Tell that to the people who went to Dan Jansen fest.

Its always funny to me that along the line, most people fall off the logic side of the issue and into the unsubstatiated fear side of an issue. The notion that sidearms are taken from people by thugs. There is NO evidence of those kinds of things happening. Its a myth that thugs see a gun and run to acquire it. Total myth. Police carry guns all over, every type of situation, crowded, not crowded. There is no evidence in this country of people just suddenly running up and taking their gun or EVEN trying to. Occasionally you do hear of a police officer who is ALREADY involved in an altercation with a thug, and the thug goes for his gun, but the notion that ANYONE just going about their business is going to have some crazed person run up and yank their gun of their hip is TOTALLY unsubstatiated gun-myth promoting fear-mongering.

The truth is, and what you are failing to see "the forest for the trees" vrider is that thugs and criminals AVOID those who have the ability to protect themselves. You and you fellow "redshirts" are unarmed. Thugs know it. They know you are powerless. They know they can **** with you because you are unarmed. Criminals and thugs AVOID people who are armed. Thats the beauty of open carry. Take Dan Jansen fest. a smattering of law-abiding citizens armed there and thugs would AVOID the place. They want NOTHING to do with a situation where law abiding people are armed and have EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to protect themselves. THUGS know that if they assault an unarmed person, they will get away with it. Thugs also know that if they assault an ARMED person, that person HAD EVERY RIGHT to defend themselves and thats NOT what a thug wants.
 

Pal

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hugh jarmis wrote:
I'll respect your response that many have taken that kind of training. On the other side of that argument, many of the holsters I have seen folks carry are of the most basic retention that being a simple thumb snap.
Just how many holsters have you seen people out carrying???

I have yet to see anyone besides my girlfriend out randomly open carrying in public. How can you experience be much different? How can you say you have a representative sample to base your opinion on? Go to an OC cookout most EVERYONE has a retention holster. Where do you see all these "civilians out carrying non-retention holsters?"
Not many civilians who carry, at least those I've seen, carry with a holster designed for more than a level 1 kind of weapon retention. If I saw more using holsters like the Safariland 070 SSIII or one of the new Bianchi or Galco style's, I might hold a different opinion.
Well then wouldn't a more prudent opinion be that given the security at summerfest entrance gates, if you see someone with a poorly retained weapon, deny THEM entry instead of a blanket non-sense ban on everyone? Even those who have a properly retained weapon?
However, having seen what I have seen on the grounds these many years, losing a gun concealed or carried open would be a very real threat to myself, my fellow redshirts and the public.
How so? How is it a threat??? Please explain? As asked earlier, doesn't the police having firearms on the grounds pose an identical threat???
I remain with my own belief. They do not belong at Summerfest,
How would you suggest people protect themselves walking from summerfest to their vehicles? We know of the assaults that have occurred in those areas? Is your advice to stay home?
State Fair or any other such venue.
Please explain to me what the difference is between walking down a busy street in say, downtown milwaukee, or the riverwalk, or cedarburg and walking around at State Fair?

It seems as if your assertion is that anywhere where there are lots of people, you don't need a gun? Really? Tell that to the people who went to Dan Jansen fest.

Its always funny to me that along the line, most people fall off the logic side of the issue and into the unsubstatiated fear side of an issue. The notion that sidearms are taken from people by thugs. There is NO evidence of those kinds of things happening. Its a myth that thugs see a gun and run to acquire it. Total myth. Police carry guns all over, every type of situation, crowded, not crowded. There is no evidence in this country of people just suddenly running up and taking their gun or EVEN trying to. Occasionally you do hear of a police officer who is ALREADY involved in an altercation with a thug, and the thug goes for his gun, but the notion that ANYONE just going about their business is going to have some crazed person run up and yank their gun of their hip is TOTALLY unsubstatiated gun-myth promoting fear-mongering.

The truth is, and what you are failing to see "the forest for the trees" vrider is that thugs and criminals AVOID those who have the ability to protect themselves. You and you fellow "redshirts" are unarmed. Thugs know it. They know you are powerless. They know they can @#$% with you because you are unarmed. Criminals and thugs AVOID people who are armed. Thats the beauty of open carry. Take Dan Jansen fest. a smattering of law-abiding citizens armed there and thugs would AVOID the place. They want NOTHING to do with a situation where law abiding people are armed and have EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to protect themselves. THUGS know that if they assault an unarmed person, they will get away with it. Thugs also know that if they assault an ARMED person, that person HAD EVERY RIGHT to defend themselves and thats NOT what a thug wants.
Nick, you're100% RIGHT.:D
 

Tree_Planter

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The Wisconsin Legislature banned concealed carry, so there is no need to discuss it relating to this topic.

Since the State Legislature prohibits Milwaukee and the on-site counsel from banning a person on public grounds, any decision made by either is unenforceable and illegal.

Is there even one truthful case where a law-abiding citizen has been the victim of a gun-grab? If it has happened it happens with such infrequency as to be inconsequential.

There is no requirement to use a holster in Wisconsin. We can discuss personal opinions at another time, but it doesn't apply here.

I previously sent polite letter and Notice Of Intent to the Milwaukee Police Department, and expect them to not even attempt to infringe on my Constitutionally guaranteed rights. Doing so would violate their oath of office and state law. Hopefully an on-site counsel will not put themselves in such a position.
 

Nutczak

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Carrying at any event that is able to sell alcohol for onsite consumption may be a valid reason for arrest????

For instance, I was at our local town park (firemans park in Arbor Vitae, WI) and in their pavillion they have a class "B" liquor license posted. according to the management,It pertains to the entire grounds of the park.
I think this would preclude anyone from the legal ability to carry a firearm at their summer fundraisingfestival. Although the alcohol (beer & wine coolers) is only sold under the roof of the pavillion, you are allowed to drink the purchased alcohol anywhere on the grounds.

I would guess that the summerfest grounds and the state fair park have a similar license, becuase I have yet to see any barriers or signs stating that people consuming alcohol may only do so under the confines of each pavillion.

Now at the Waukesha county fair, I believe they have a "Beer Corral" where no alcohol is allowed out of that area. this situationmay be diferent since the license may not cover the entire grounds. or it is just an attempt to keep underage drinkers rom gaining access to alcohol.

Are liqour license's a county by county situation, or is there state oversight??
 

VRider911

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One thing we get to do on a regular basis at Summerfest is explain that it is NOT a public park. Summerfest rents the site from the city of milwaukee. Its surrounded by a fence and in order to enter the park you have to purchase a ticket. We have disclaimers posted at all entry gates as well as on the back of the ticket as to what is allowed and what is not. Beer and other alchoholic products may be purchased all over the summerfest grounds and may be consumed anywhere on the grounds including sitting on the rocks down by the lake.

Forums such as this one provoke heated discussion. I find that rather interesting and enjoyeable as it allows those who read them to participate in the discussion. One may voice their own personal opinions and then see what others think of that opinion. Having the experience I earned from my 17 years working there, its my personal belief that openly carried firearms by members of the public at large DO NOT belong at Summerfest. Yours may differ. I honestly dont care. Apply, interview and work a season and then see what you think. You may hold your original opinion, you may not. You may stand on your soap box and argue your belief, but it wont change mine. Just make sure that if you come down to the grounds to do that, that your soap box is on the public sidewalk, because we have the right to remove you from summerfest property.

As for me, reading what I have so farhere, some of the folks on here I find to be truly frightening.
 

hugh jarmis

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Vrider. I don't think the discussion was what "is" allowed in Summerfest. I think the discussion was centered around what the reality of personal protection is AND the benefit that would be had of people carrying at summerfest.

I raised some points and posed some questiosn of you for teh sake of honest and practicaldebate.. Do you care to respond, or just cop-out with toss out the "police-esque" statements like "work here a season" and a affirmation that you get to play power-trip and throw people out?
 

VRider911

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The "work here for a season" was quite literal. Try it, trydoing the job. As for the whole "power trip" crap. The vast majority of my time is spent helping people find what they are looking for, find each other, deal with medical emergencies and deal with employee conflicts. Do I get to "throw people out"? Absolutely. I also get to detain people for potential arrest by MPD. But that aspect of my job equals the smallest amount of my time.

As for your idea of a "benefit" to open carry on the grounds, in my opinion there are none. The vast majority of the people who come to summerfest are milwaukee county residents. We do get a significant amount of people from the suburbs and from other areas of the state as well as quite a good amount of people who make the trip up from Illinios. Patrons are not accustomed to seeing regular people carrying sidearms. Law enforcement personnel yes, Joe Average no. Add in to that the size of the crowds we deal with numbering anywhere from a slow weekday of 25K to the memorial day weekend where we had somewhere between 75K and 100K just thinking about someone carrying openly brings shivers to my thoughts. I dont even want to think about the number of radio calls that would bring about. But even scarier than that is contemplating the ramifications of that individual discharging that weapon in a crowd. I dont care if he/she felt threatened or thatthey felt theirlife was in danger, there are far too many bystanders present to act as a backstop. Your asking me to trust a persons gun handling skills without knowing that person. Are they carrying a load with a frangible bullet? Is it a factory load or a handload? Does it make major on the USPSA scale? Do I care?

The attorney general gave his opinion as to the legality of open carry. Now agencies all over the state are having to deal with it. As much as I will defend to the death the right to bear arms, I will not defend what I believe to be a ludicrous act of bravado. Given the specifics of how Summerfest operates and that you can drink alchoholic beverages anywhere on the grounds, I believe not only would it be illegal to open carry at Summerfest but also that we have the right to deny entry to anyone who sought entry who was doing so. That is not to say the given a test of the law I could not be found wrong, only that at this time, I believe I am right.
 

hugh jarmis

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vrider. Is it or is it not true that people have been assaulted on their way back to their car/bus, walking to their condo/apartment whatever after leaving summerfest???

As for the last part of your post. I completely agree that under current law, carrying at summerfest is illegal and I completely agree that summerfest would have NO problem preventing people from carrying on the grounds and the police would back them up.

However, not being a sheep, my mind doesn't limit itself to only the considerations of what our execessive and ignorant and usually innefective government has encumbered us with in the form of laws.

Rather, I consider how things SHOULD be, and how things could be BETTER. I don't limit myself to only thinking within the box of "legality" that I'm SURE "law" enforcement and politicians wish I did.
 

Mugenlude

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I'd like to start my reply stating that I understand that Summerfest can stop us from entering, that doesn't mean we have to like it and can speak out about it.

VRider911 wrote:
As for your idea of a "benefit" to open carry on the grounds, in my opinion there are none.

No offense VRider911, you are allowed your opinion, however, we are also allowed our opinion when it comes to protecting our lifes. Just because you fail to see a benefit in defending yourself doesn't mean we don't.

During my two trips into Summerfest this year if I wanted to conceal carry a weapon into the grounds I would have had no trouble doing so. An ankle holster wouldn't have been a problem both times, one of the times any small of back holster or weak-side holster would have been fine as one the security guy saw my pocket knife he failed to continue with the wand, hmmmm, if your concerned with my knife wouldn't you want to check to see if I had anything else?

So there are a couple reasons why I see a "benefit" in OC'g.



VRider911 wrote:
The vast majority of the people who come to summerfest are milwaukee county residents. We do get a significant amount of people from the suburbs and from other areas of the state as well as quite a good amount of people who make the trip up from Illinios. Patrons are not accustomed to seeing regular people carrying sidearms. Law enforcement personnel yes, Joe Average no.

So you are saying that as time goes on and people are more accustom to the laws of Wisconsin, and OC is normal that it will be OK for people to protect themselves? Why should my right to protect myself be any different just because someone else feels better about me protecting myself?


VRider911 wrote:
Add in to that the size of the crowds we deal with numbering anywhere from a slow weekday of 25K to the memorial day weekend where we had somewhere between 75K and 100K just thinking about someone carrying openly brings shivers to my thoughts. I dont even want to think about the number of radio calls that would bring about.

How is this any different than a busy weekend at a mall? Just because there are more people present does not mean that the danger is less, it means it's MORE! Again with the concern of people that don't know the law making calls, with time that will deminish, what about all of the scary looking kids walking around?


VRider911 wrote:
But even scarier than that is contemplating the ramifications of that individual discharging that weapon in a crowd. I dont care if he/she felt threatened or thatthey felt theirlife was in danger, there are far too many bystanders present to act as a backstop. Your asking me to trust a persons gun handling skills without knowing that person. Are they carrying a load with a frangible bullet? Is it a factory load or a handload? Does it make major on the USPSA scale? Do I care?

And there it is, you don't care about a persons right to self-defense. You sure as hell aren't going to be there to stop some group of thugs from bashing in my head, you aren't going to be there when some thug pulls a gun on me, you aren't going to be there when a group of drunk bikers decide they want to bash my head on the rocks. That is all fine and good, it's not your responsibility to protect me, it's MY responsibility!

Know your target and beyond, it's one of the cardinal rules.

Who cares what type of bullets I have in my gun, it doesn't matter.


VRider911 wrote:
The attorney general gave his opinion as to the legality of open carry. Now agencies all over the state are having to deal with it.

They have been dealing with it for years, however, now they actually have to deal with it in the correct manner. They can't just arrest someone with a BS charge now.


VRider911 wrote:
As much as I will defend to the death the right to bear arms, I will not defend what I believe to be a ludicrous act of bravado.

This is where I think you are confused and are twisting the facts to fit your argument. We are carrying to protect ourselves, it just happens that in doing so we are making people aware of our rights.

VRider911 wrote:
Given the specifics of how Summerfest operates and that you can drink alchoholic beverages anywhere on the grounds, I believe not only would it be illegal to open carry at Summerfest but also that we have the right to deny entry to anyone who sought entry who was doing so. That is not to say the given a test of the law I could not be found wrong, only that at this time, I believe I am right.

As I stated earlier in this thread, and why I started this thread to begin with. I was trying to find out of the liquor license was from the entire grounds or just the buildings. Yes, Summerfest has the right to deny people entry, they doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. Obviously, we disagree about that.

I do appreciate you coming to the website and chatting about it.

Earlier you stated that you feel people here are "truely frightening", do you care to explain that a little more? Don't get me wrong, some people here are very opinionated, but I wouldn't call them "frightening". They are people who are standing up for your rights, all of them, even if you don't argee with this one right in particular.
 

hugh jarmis

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Did you ever notice that the "anti's" position on guns is always deeply rooted in a very self-focused selfishness?

I think of how the police officers who make arguements against people being able to defend themselves always parse their objections within the context of how it affects "them".

And then we've got Vrider. Most of his objections are centered around the context of how he "feels" it would affect his job.

Yet pro-gun people, while they DO have their own benefit in mind, by their support of freedom ALSO have in mind the rights and benefit of ALL the other law abiding citizens around them.

Thats the great part about being a fan and promoter of freedom. YES, its self-serving. But its ALSO benefiting each and every one of your fellow men and women. When it comes to control and rules and regulations. To often with the kinds of rules and regulations that we see now, that often benfits only a few at the expense of others.
 

SpringerXDacp

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Is it reasonably safe to assume, with the high risk status of having 75K to 100K patrons on the weekend at Summerfest who may become victim to the under-trained, mere citizenry with God awful bullets, that the Security Personel are not carrying as well?
 

hugh jarmis

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Is it reasonably safe to assume, with the high risk status of having 75K to 100K patrons on the weekend at Summerfest who may become victim to the under-trained, mere citizenry with God awful bullets, that the Security Personel are not carrying as well?
Correct. Security personel are not armed (unless a radio and perhaps flashlight counts) ;)

In fact, its SOOOO dangerous to have an open-carried firearm in a crowded place that the police do not carry firearms in Summerfest. They check them at the front gate. I mean NO need for a weapon in summerfest right? I mean if you can't possibly use a firearm inside summerfest no need for the police to carry them right? I mean when there are guns, criminals just run up to your hip and pull the gun off of you right?

Cops in Wisconsin do that in all crowded places. They don't carry guns because it would just be TOO dangerous!
 

protias

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hugh jarmis wrote:
Is it reasonably safe to assume, with the high risk status of having 75K to 100K patrons on the weekend at Summerfest who may become victim to the under-trained, mere citizenry with God awful bullets, that the Security Personel are not carrying as well?
Correct. Security personel are not armed (unless a radio and perhaps flashlight counts) ;)

In fact, its SOOOO dangerous to have an open-carried firearm in a crowded place that the police do not carry firearms in Summerfest. They check them at the front gate. I mean NO need for a weapon in summerfest right? I mean if you can't possibly use a firearm inside summerfest no need for the police to carry them right? I mean when there are guns, criminals just run up to your hip and pull the gun off of you right?

Cops in Wisconsin do that in all crowded places. They don't carry guns because it would just be TOO dangerous!
Yup, police are constantly getting disarmed. If fact, I see it all the time. One minute their gun is in their holster, next minute it is gone. Then those guns are used in crimes all over the place.

:banghead:
 
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