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Thread: South Haven ordinences that need to be updated.

  1. #1
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I became curious about South Havens ordinances because of a conversation with a city employee who shall remain nameless for personal reasons.

    As a result I got a copy of the SH ordinances and went through every single one and found two that have unenforceable parts in them due to preemption. Now I would like to have this corrected but I am afraid that if my name was attached to this it could get a certain employee into hot water for bringing this to my attention. So I am asking either another member or MOC itself to send a letter informing them of the needed corrections.

    OK here are the ordinences.
    The portions to be removed are highlighted in yellow.
    Sec. 58-83. Prohibited activities.
    No person or organization shall do any of the following activities in a park without the
    written consent of the city manager. The person or organization may appeal the city manager’s
    decision to the city council should they feel the need to do so.
    (1) Hold or participate in any parade, drill, exhibition or political or religious meeting.
    (2) Speak publicly or deliver oration, address, speech, sermon or lecture.
    (3) Carry or use any firearm of any description, air rifles or slingshots or discharge
    any fireworks or explosive devices of any nature.
    (4) Erect any structure.
    (5) Canvass, advertise, solicit, vend or rent any service, merchandise or object of
    any kind.
    (6) Hold or participate in any public function other than those conducted by the city.
    (7) For any gatherings in excess of 500 people, chapter 42 of this Code shall apply.
    (Code 1965, Sec. 8.07; Ord. No. 747, Sec. 1, 11-28-91)


    Sec. 18-34. Enumeration of forbidden acts.
    Within the cemetery, no person shall loiter, litter, use profane language, bring in or
    consume any alcoholic beverage or controlled substance, peddle or solicit the sale of any
    commodity unconnected to cemetery usage, place signs or notices, possess firearms unless the
    person is a duly authorized law enforcement officer or a duly authorized military escort for a
    veteran's funeral or memorial service, allow animals to run at large or otherwise beyond his
    control, or engage in any play or recreational activity.
    (Ord. No. 772, Sec. 12.08(c), 12-21-92)


    In the discharge of firearms rules they have an exception for lawful self defense of yourself or others.

    UPDATE

    Ok here is and update on the South Haven ordinance issue!

    See link for details http://shrgc.org/index_files/news_article.html

    In short the city attorney told them that OC can be regulated in the city and as such it is OK for the police to enforce the ordinances. He said CC was ok... where he seemed to have gone wrong was when he failed to include the AG opinions in his research. He also apparently feels that the Ferndale case does not apply.

    Now I know this Attorney and I have been less than impressed with him in the past so this does not surprise me.

    At this time the City Manager is seeking another opinion so the saga goes on.

    A big thanks to Dan Hosier SH Rod and Gun Club and John Matthews for speaking on behalf of OC.

    I will update this thread as needed until this is resolved!




    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  2. #2
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    I am hereby empowering you to do this yourself! It's easy! Just copy the letter the rest of us used, and modify it to match your specifications!

  3. #3
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  4. #4
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Write it, post it and I'm sure someone will send it.

  5. #5
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I will be busy most of today but will try to have it up by Sunday afternoon!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  6. #6
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    here it is on next post if you have an email to the city of south haven I can zap it over to them

  7. #7
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    City of South Haven

    It has come to my attention that you have an ordinance that bans firearms from commission buildings. This ordinance is unlawful

    and unenforceable due to MCL 123.1102. The offending ordinance is below.









    No person or organization shall do any of the following activities in a park without the

    written consent of the city manager. The person or organization may appeal the city manager’s

    decision to the city council should they feel the need to do so.

    (1) Hold or participate in any parade, drill, exhibition or political or religious meeting.

    (2) Speak publicly or deliver oration, address, speech, sermon or lecture.

    (3) Carry or use any firearm of any description, air rifles or slingshots or discharge

    any fireworks or explosive devices of any nature.

    (4) Erect any structure.

    (5) Canvass, advertise, solicit, vend or rent any service, merchandise or object of

    any kind.

    (6) Hold or participate in any public function other than those conducted by the city.

    (7) For any gatherings in excess of 500 people, chapter 42 of this Code shall apply.

    (Code 1965, Sec. 8.07; Ord. No. 747, Sec. 1, 11-28-91)


    Sec. 18-34. Enumeration of forbidden acts.
    Within the cemetery, no person shall loiter, litter, use profane language, bring in or

    consume any alcoholic beverage or controlled substance, peddle or solicit the sale of any

    commodity unconnected to cemetery usage, place signs or notices, possess firearms unless the

    person is a duly authorized law enforcement officer or a duly authorized military escort for a

    veteran's funeral or memorial service, allow animals to run at large or otherwise beyond his

    control, or engage in any play or recreational activity.

    (Ord. No. 772, Sec. 12.08(c), 12-21-92)










    As you may or may not know, in 1990 the State of Michigan passed MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit

    of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any

    other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms,

    ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law

    or a law of this state.

    In MCRGO v. Ferndale, the Michigan Court of Appeals held that local units of government may not impose restrictions upon

    firearms possession.

    THE MICHIGAN APPEALS COURT CONCLUDED April 29, 2003 9:10 am. v No. 242237

    In sum, we conclude that § 1102 is a statute that specifically imposes a prohibition on local units of government from enacting

    and enforcing any ordinances or regulations pertaining to the transportation and possession of firearms, and thus preempts any

    ordinance or regulation of a local unit of government concerning these areas.

    Further, we conclude that the specific language of the 2000 amendments to MCL 28.421 et seq., particularly §§ 5c and 5o, which

    were adopted more than a decade after the enactment of § 1102, do not repeal § 1102 or otherwise reopen this area to local

    regulation of the carrying of firearms.17 Accordingly, we hold that the Ferndale ordinance is preempted by state law and,

    consequently, we reverse.

    Please alter this ordinance and any others you may have the ban firearms from government properties, so that it/they comply

    with state law. Failure to do so is a violation of MCL 123.1102 and is subject to legal actions including civil litigation, as was filed

    upon the City of Ferndale in 2003.

    Please respond to my request within 10 business days. You may respond via by email at my personal email address of

    gcannon@miopencarry.org . I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter.

    Respectfully, G. Cannon

  8. #8
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    just sent it to the city of south haven.:celebrate:celebrate

  9. #9
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Thank you I will explain in PM why I didn't feel I should send it.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  10. #10
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    You will need to contact the City Manager with this issue.

    g Brandy Gildea // Parks and Cemetery Supervisor
    City of South Haven // Office (269) 637-0772//Fax (269) 637-4778
    Department of Public Works // 1199 8th Ave, South Haven , MI 49090 // www.south-haven.com






    so I sent the letter to the city manager

  11. #11
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    cool beans!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  12. #12
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    NOTE I moved the update to the first post!!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  13. #13
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Ok here is and update on the South Haven ordinance issue!

    See link for details http://shrgc.org/index_files/news_article.html

    In short the city attorney told them that OC can be regulated in the city and as such it is OK for the police to enforce the ordinances. He said CC was ok... where he seemed to have gone wrong was when he failed to include the AG opinions in his research. He also apparently feels that the Ferndale case does not apply.

    Now I know this Attorney and I have been less than impressed with him in the past so this does not surprise me.

    At this time the City Manager is seeking another opinion so the saga goes on.

    A big thanks to Dan Hosier SH Rod and Gun Club and John Matthews for speaking on behalf of OC.

    I will update this thread as needed until this is resolved!
    [img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/John/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-5.jpg[/img]
    Hey that lawyer and I got our law degree from the same place!

    [img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/John/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-6.jpg[/img]

  14. #14
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    yeah he is a dork....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  15. #15
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Sameattorney that told the cops to charge Chris Fetters?

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Do you want MOC to officially send a letter? Let me know and I will. What troubles me here is that it's one thing for a city to have an ordinance but not enforce it, it's different when they feel they CAN enforce it. So I'm all for a picnic in South Haven, it's a nice touristy place.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  17. #17
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    If you could send one of your famous markups... you know where you insert the parts the lame attorney left out I would appreciate it! I will PM you with details of why I am maintaining a low profile in this one!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  18. #18
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Sent it to the Mayor, Manager, and police chief. Now we wait.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  19. #19
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    What I found as troubling with the ordinance is this...

    No person or organization shall do any of the following activities in a park without the written consent of the city manager.

    (2) Speak publicly or deliver oration, address, speech, sermon or lecture.


    (6) Hold or participate in any public function other than those conducted by the city.


    First Amendment anybody?
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  20. #20
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    Does the city manager go by the name Adolf?springerdave.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    It would seem to me that's another unenforceable ordinance. The park is public property.

  22. #22
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    There is a history of this type of crap in South Haven... I think the 1A issue needs to be pushed too... At the last council meeting there was a business owner who said the parks need to be signed as off limits to public speaking...
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  23. #23
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that this would include the ordinance that south haven has restricting freedom of speech.


    STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT)
    CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963

    § 5 Freedom of speech and of press.
    Sec. 5.
    Every person may freely speak, write, express and publish his views on all subjects, being responsible for the abuse of such right; and no law shall be enacted to restrain or abridge the liberty of speech or of the press.

    History: Const. 1963, Art. I, § 5, Eff. Jan. 1, 1964
    Former Constitution: See Const. 1908, Art. II, § 4.


  24. #24
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    You are correct!! Sadly there are many of these on the books in MI so it is apparent that the city attorneys are not doing a good job checking the new ordinances against the state and federal constitution!!

    I know that the SH ordinance is not new it has been on the books for some time .. but that is no excuse as there is supposed to be a regular review of ordinances!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  25. #25
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    Personally, I wouldn't even concern myself with their illegal laws restricting speech. They can't enforce it.

    I think we really do need to have something down there. A OC picnic, along with a guest speaker. The double whammy!

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