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Thread: Detained again

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Go into Wal-Mart tonight in Plover. Carried there several times before without issue.

    I buy mouse pads and check-out. Then go to Sub-Way (inside Wal-Mart).

    As I am ordering a sub, A young guy walks up to me:

    W-Mart: Are you a police officer?

    Me: No.

    W-Mart: Do you have a permit to carry that?

    Me: Actually, Wisconsin does not have or require permits to carry.

    W-Mart: We had a few people say they were nervous.

    Me: No need to be nervous, I am not doing anything other than eating.

    W-Mart: Thank you sir.

    Me: You're welcome.

    I finish ordering the sub, sit down and eat. When I finish, I go back up to the counter and order two(2) more subs to take home to the family. As I am paying for the second order, the subway guy says, "I think there are people here to talk to you." I say, ya, kinda figured. I pay for the subs, and ask if I can get a little more soda. Subway guy says sure. I get a little more soda, and head out of Subway into Wal-Mart. As I step into Wal-Mart, I am met by three (3) LEO.

    Leo1: Hello, I am officer xxx from the Plover Police department. The management here contacted us stating you are making people nervous and they would like yo to leave.

    Me: I wasn't aware of that. They did not ask me to leave, if they had, I would have left.

    Leo1: Although open carry is legal, they didn't feel comfortable asking you to leave so they contacted us.

    Me: No problem, I am finished anyway, I'll head on out.

    Leo1: Do you have some ID?

    Me: Am I required to give you ID?

    Leo1: When we are asked to ask you to leave, you are.

    Me: I don't believe I am, but rather that argue, I will provide ID under duress.

    I give him the ID, he starts the call in process.

    Leo2: There is another guy who lives here in Plover who open carries a lot. I thought you might be that guy.

    Me: I wasn't aware of that.

    Leo1: Is this your current address?

    Me: Yes.

    Leo1: Your phone number?

    Me: xxx-xxx-xxxx

    Leo2: I assume you are well versed on Open Carry and realize that the property owners can ask you to leave.

    Me: Yes, and if they had asked, I would have left immediately.

    Leo1: Here is you license back. Where are you parked, but this entrance or the other one?

    Me: By the other, but I can use this entrance, and walk across the parking lot.

    Leo2: Should we start out?

    Me: No problem, I walk out the door followed by the three LEO.

    Leo1: Thank you for cooperating with us.

    Me: Have a nice evening.



    That's twice in as many days, that I have been contacted by LEO. I will be sending an open records request to the plover police tomorrow.



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    Sooner or later is has to come down to some one suing for deprivation of rights. That is all it is going to take and maybe then these people will wake up.

    TITLE 42 - THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE
    CHAPTER 21 - CIVIL RIGHTS
    SUBCHAPTER I - GENERALLY
    § 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights
    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any
    State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of
    the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights,
    privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured
    in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action
    brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity,
    injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief
    was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to
    the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.
    (R.S. § 1979; Pub. L. 96–170, § 1, Dec. 29, 1979, 93 Stat. 1284; Pub. L. 104–317, title III, § 309(c), Oct.
    19, 1996, 110 Stat. 3853.)


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    Was the ID "process" the beginning of being "trespassed", meaning, now you get a letter saying you are not allowed back on penalty of being arrested for trespassing?
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Founder's Club Member bnhcomputing's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    Was the ID "process" the beginning of being "trespassed", meaning, now you get a letter saying you are not allowed back on penalty of being arrested for trespassing?
    Unknown at this time. I will be contacting Corporate Wal-Mart via snail mail, because there doesn't appear to be any electronic way to do so. I will scan/post any documentation I receive.

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    I wonder if there is any benefit to going back, unOCing, and asking the manager if they requested the police to trespass you.

    Or maybe phrase it a little differently, "Did the police suggest you trespass me?"

    I'll have to think about that.

    Also, I guess I'll have to add to my tactics asking the police,if they demand ID in a similar circumstance, "Did the store say they wanted me trespassed?"

    Depending on that answer, then maybe ask, "Oh? They did. I see. Was that your idea or theirs?"

    I'll have to work this out a little bit.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Best wishes.

    The stock Wal-Mart answer, from many similar such incidents reported here on OCDO, is that "store policy is to follow state law." To get a more definitive or responsive statement will be a coup.

    And we will get a practical lesson in the application of Wisc. ID law and learn about the crime that was about to be/in process/had been committed.

    I don't recall the 'demand ID' as part of Wisconsin trespass law. From my experience with other jurisdictions effective notice must be made. I suggest that absent notice you must be allowed to cure your trespass without committing a crime or tortious act.

    An attorney might be useful to untangle these three disparate areas of law; gun law, trespass law and stop and ID.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.

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    As an after thought, much later, it would/will be interesting were the same circumstances surround a member of a protected class thus forcing a differentiation between protected and non-protected civil rights (with a nod to Jackie's '1983') in PC Wisconsin.

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    [img]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/SCOTTA%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-3.jpg[/img]This is from MI Open Carry. Hope it helps!!!


    Corporate policies on Open Carry.


    MOC is compiling coporate poilicies on firearms. These businesses allow OC or CC and follow state laws in regards to firearms. MOC works hard on getting stores to allow the lawful carry of firearms for personal defense and follow state law in that regard.

    If you have other policies please PM me details and I will update them.
    Corporate policies on Open Carry.

    BOB EVANS
    From:Garrett_Hajes@bobevans.com
    Bob Evans - Reference # 536155

    We certainly appreciate you taking the time to e-mail regarding our Bob Evans Restaurants.

    Bob Evans follows all local, state, and federal laws pertaining to firearms. Please contact your local Bob Evans restaurants for the specific regulations.

    Again, Mr. Spice, we appreciate your comments. We value your patronage and appreciate your interest in Bob Evans Farms Inc.

    Barnes & Noble
    Original Message From: "Mary Ausman" <MJAusman@bn.com>
    To: XXXXXXXXXXX
    Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:42 PM
    Subject: Barnes & Noble

    Thank you for your email.

    While we are unable to discuss customer situations with an uninvolved third part, to answer your question, Barnes & Noble complies with the law and, except where prohibited by law, does not prohibit its customers from carrying handguns or other firearms in a Barnes & Noble store in accordance with the laws of the state in which a store is located.
    Sincerely, Mary Ausman
    Supervisor, Customer Retention
    Barnes & Noble, Inc. 122 Fifth Avenue New York, NY 10011
    tel: (800) 422-7717 fax: (212)352.3660 http://www.barnesandnobleinc.com

    Walmart
    Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.
    Customer Service1-800-Wal-Mart
    (1-800-925-627 Questions regarding a Wal-Mart Store issue
    702 SW 8th Street
    Wal-Mart Stores, Inc.
    Bentonville, Arkansas 72716-8611

    Email contact link: http://walmartstores.com/contactus/feedback.aspx
    Audio of Walmart Policy: Walmart_Firearm_Policy_Call.mp3

    Cabelas:
    Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.

    Thank you for the recent email. I am very sorry for the confusion that took place at our retail location.
    Our corporate office has taken action in regards to the below mentioned issue and here is what has been decided.
    We have made the decision to comply with state laws in regards to open carry. We do not ask customers to check concealed or open carry weapons where the state has laws governing this situation. Our signs refer to firearms that are being returned or sold to Cabela's.

    If you are still having problems please feel free to let us know

    Thanks again
    Becky
    Lead Associate
    Cabela's Retail Information
    1-800-905-2731
    retail.contactgroup<AT>cabelas.com

    Toys-R-US

    Dear Mr. Ross:

    Thank you for contacting Toys R Us regarding the recent tragedy in our store. Naturally, we want our guest's to be safe and feel confident while they are shopping. We adhere to the state law of whatever state a particular store is located in since the governing laws regarding gun control vary across the country. At this time I have not been notified that this will change though I can not guarantee that it won't in the future. I invite you to submit your concerns to our corporate head office for further attention.

    Toys R Us
    Attn: Gerald Storch (CEO)
    1 Geoffrey Way
    Wayne, NJ 07470

    If you have any further questions or concerns please email us or contact our customer service line at 1-800-869-7787.

    Sincerely,
    Beverly McCann
    Toys R Us Corporate Guest Relations Team

    LOWE'S
    Dear XXXX XXXX:

    Thank you for giving Lowe's the opportunity to respond to your concerns regarding our policy on firearms in our stores.

    Lowe's currently does, and will continue to abide by federal, state and local laws regarding firearms, and we do not prohibit customers from carrying firearms into our stores.

    Our first and foremost concern is for the safety of our customers, however; we take all comments and concerns from our customers seriously. We are considerate of all customers, and will remain neutral regarding the right to carry firearms. We will respect federal, state and local laws regarding this.

    If Lowe's can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to call 1-866-284-8989 or email execustservice@lowes.com. You may also contact us by mailing your correspondence to P.O. Box 1111, Mail Code CON8, North Wilkesboro, North Carolina 28659.
    Thank you,
    Julie Holloway
    Lowe's Executive Customer Service

    BEST BUY's POLICY

    from Customer Contact <CustomerContact@bestbuy.com>
    to XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    date Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 7:31 PM
    subject Best Buy Gun policy - XXXXXXXX
    mailed-by bestbuy.com

    Best Buy strives to comply with all applicable law and statues. Best Buy also strives to provide a safe and comfortable shopping environment for all our customers. Best Buy does not ban guns at our retail locations. As a general rule, Best Buy does not post “no guns allowed” signs in our stores and we are not aware of any individual stores that might have posted such a sign.




    Home Depot.

    Policy is to follow the law of the state the store located.
    http://www.tennesseefirearms.com/law...s/homedepo.pdf

    Customer care number. 1-800-430-3376
    Contact link: http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/...atalogId=10053

    Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 06:13:57 -0400 (EDT)
    From: "HD Consumer Affairs" <hdconsumeraffairs@homedepot.com>
    To: warchild44spcl@yahoo.com
    Subject: Re: Other Website Questions

    Dear Jerry,
    The Home Depot Customer Care is in receipt of your email. We appreciate you taking the time to email us. Our general policy is not to ban customers from carrying firearms on the Home Depot property in those states having a concealed firearm law, provided they are carrying the firearm in accordance with the applicable laws.
    If the firearm is not concealed in accordance with the carrying permit (typically that means concealed and cannot be seen by members of the public), it is up to the manager based on personal comfort level to approach the individual directly and request them to leave the premises or to contact local law enforcement for purposes of having the individual removed. Thank you for contacting us.

    Sincerely,
    Ricky
    Customer Care


    Rand Paul 2016

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Best wishes.

    The stock Wal-Mart answer, from many similar such incidents reported here on OCDO, is that "store policy is to follow state law."* To get a more definitive or responsive statement will be a coup.

    And we will get a practical lesson in the application of Wisc. ID law and learn about the crime that was about to be/in process/had been committed.

    I don't recall the 'demand ID' as part of Wisconsin trespass law.* From my experience with other jurisdictions effective notice must be made.* I suggest that absent notice you must be allowed to cure your trespass without committing a crime or tortious act.

    An attorney might be useful to untangle these three disparate areas of law; gun law, trespass law and stop and ID.

    Either we are equal or we are not.* Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.
    Generally, you're only allowed to "cure your trespass" in a place in which the general public is allowed (basically, any business that doesn't require membership to patronize). Obviously, WalMart qualifies here.

    In this case, he was not given ample opportunity, as he was never asked to leave by anyone before the officer got involved.

    I'd have personally refused ID, and politely informed him that now that I know I'm not welcome, I'll gladly leave. If the officer wants to take it further, he's taking his career into his own hands.

  10. #10
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    PM Venator on the Michigan board. He should know how to get corporate to contact the store and inform them of corporate policy. They (MI forum members) have done it before, and I don't see why it would be any different for WI
    Rand Paul 2016

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    I got to say it again, the MI members have got it going on and are on top of things.
    I read the MI threads alot because I visit the U.P. often and I may relocate there one of these years.

    Maybe we can sticky the post with the corporate policies to the top of the WI thread or someplace in the main page for easier future reference?

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    eeew too true

    mee two

    well said no one

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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lFundingR1.png

    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Geez Hubert, you got a target on your back? The rate your going it should be a hell of an interesting day at the Tea Party.

    I'm not sure I'd give up ID that quickly either. But not having been asked by a LEO yet who knows, I may curl up in the fetal position and wet myself. Sure hope not, lol. Quess I'll find out sometime now that I do carry most places.

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    Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

    This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

    Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

    This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

    Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.

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    MadtownTim wrote:
    Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

    This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

    Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

    This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

    Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.
    Welcome to the website.

    I would think if that were to happen...as long as you didn't do anything wrong except scare some person who fears guns and you get a DC...there'd be a lawsuit. But thats just me.
    Logan - Laugh lots, Love Often, and Defend the Irreplaceable
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    CC permits: MN, FL, NH, PA and CO

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    I believe there are 2 federal law suits going at this time for the same circumstances.

    Not to keep beatin a dead cat with a stick but....

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42...3----000-.html

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    MadtownTim wrote:
    Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

    This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

    Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

    This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

    Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.
    Welcome to the site!!!

    This response sounds very familiiar, if you do so searching on this website you will see that lots of cities said that at some point, however, many people aren't actually running into this. It seems like a scare tactic to deter you from open carrying your firearm, they are used to not having to deal with citizens with firearms.

    The AG issued a memo addressing the situation you just described and it said that OC in and off itself is not DC. That is probably what they used to do, but the AG issue the memo and all of the police departments know of this ruling. Don't let them deter you...

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    Simple DC is a forfeiture misdemeanor (947.01, 939.63(2) and 939.51 & .52). No one that worries about the AG will ever see the charge.

    Even with the deadly weapons enhancement to potentially >365 days of incarceration 939.63(2) it's still a misdemeanor.

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    MadtownTim wrote:
    Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

    This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

    Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me:* if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

    This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison.* In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.
    Welcome to the site.

    Wisconsin AG's MEMO linky

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    Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

    This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

    Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

    This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

    Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.
    Categorically false. Either you are trolling or you've been fed a complete scare tactic. (I'm not passing judgement, welcome to the site) but this notion (as purportedly relayed to you by 2 ADA's and the police is absolutely wrong.)

  22. #22
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    MadtownTim wrote:
    Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

    This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

    Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

    This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

    Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.
    Interesting that they would use the example of walking a dog while OCing, since that's exactly what I do frequently in Madison.

    As I recently posted, two Madison PD cars passed by-- about 5 minutes apart-- during my last such excursion. Hell, I can see them wanting to cite my dog, because he is disorderly, but I'm not.

    Would like to know which sergeant you talked with-- obviously they're not all on the same page.

    Hubert, it always happens when you're eating. Stop eating! Better yet, stop carrying your ID on you! That will end the dilemma about how to handle it.
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    I smell a troll.

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    Shotgun wrote:
    Hubert, it always happens when you're eating. Stop eating! Better yet, stop carrying your ID on you! That will end the dilemma about how to handle it.
    Are you suggesting I need to go on a diet?

    You are correct, had I simply purchased the mouse pads and left, this most likely wouldn't have happened. It also seems to me, that this is the exact sort of thing that happened in PA with OC and dining out.



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    I'm trying to be open-minded here, but lets disect:
    discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant
    We've known for months... heck YEARS that police DO NOT know the law. Anything a police officer tells youshould be considered false prima facie.
    In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told
    Who's "we"?

    In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.
    "they" would roll a squad? District Attorneys don't "roll a squad" district attorneys don't "draw their weapons"

    Lotta "rolling a squad" talk going here. Sounds like "industry" lingo to me. You a cop MadtownTim?

    Please don'tbe offended ifI'm "way off base" here.Please understand we REGULARLY get trolls in herewho seem to be hell bent onspreading mis-information and scaring people into not exercising their rights.

    In this case it couldn't be any clearer. JB Van Hollen's memo was CRYSTAL clear, and he subsequently appeared in MANY public forums with even MORE precise language.

    We have a CONSTITUTIONAL right toopen carry. It is not a crime. If all you are doing is lawfully open-carrying you CANNOTbe prosecuted. That is the fact.





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