Detained again

imported post

Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.

Click to expand...

Categorically false. Either you are trolling or you've been fed a complete scare tactic. (I'm not passing judgement, welcome to the site) but this notion (as purportedly relayed to you by 2 ADA's and the police is absolutely wrong.)

imported post

MadtownTim wrote:

Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.

Click to expand...

Interesting that they would use the example of walking a dog while OCing, since that's exactly what I do frequently in Madison. :lol:

As I recently posted, two Madison PD cars passed by-- about 5 minutes apart-- during my last such excursion. Hell, I can see them wanting to cite my dog, because he is disorderly, but I'm not.

Would like to know which sergeant you talked with-- obviously they're not all on the same page.

Hubert, it always happens when you're eating. Stop eating! Better yet, stop carrying your ID on you! That will end the dilemma about how to handle it.

imported post

I smell a troll.

imported post

Shotgun wrote:

Hubert, it always happens when you're eating. Stop eating! Better yet, stop carrying your ID on you! That will end the dilemma about how to handle it.

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting I need to go on a diet?

You are correct, had I simply purchased the mouse pads and left, this most likely wouldn't have happened. It also seems to me, that this is the exact sort of thing that happened in PA with OC and dining out.

imported post

I'm trying to be open-minded here, but lets disect:

discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant

Click to expand...

We've known for months... heck YEARS that police DO NOT know the law. Anything a police officer tells youshould be considered false prima facie.

In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told

Click to expand...

Who's "we"?

In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

Click to expand...

"they" would roll a squad? District Attorneys don't "roll a squad" district attorneys don't "draw their weapons"

Lotta "rolling a squad" talk going here. Sounds like "industry" lingo to me. You a cop MadtownTim?

Please don'tbe offended ifI'm "way off base" here.Please understand we REGULARLY get trolls in herewho seem to be hell bent onspreading mis-information and scaring people into not exercising their rights.

In this case it couldn't be any clearer. JB Van Hollen's memo was CRYSTAL clear, and he subsequently appeared in MANY public forums with even MORE precise language.

We have a CONSTITUTIONAL right toopen carry. It is not a crime. If all you are doing is lawfully open-carrying you CANNOTbe prosecuted. That is the fact.

imported post

We still have a gun-shop owner stating falsehoods like Tim has repeated. His latest one is "You won't be bothered anywhere out of the downtowm area. but step into downtown while carrying and you'll get arrested"

Well I think I proved that one wrong with this!

imported post

Sniff all you like, you're only going to smell my dog and possibly a cigarette or three.

The example of the dog is mine. When first discussing the scenario with Sgt. Laner (sp?) yesterday at the Northside Precinct.

From one of the conference rooms, we called the DA's office, and that's where the "we" comes from as we were sitting next to eachother at the time of the call.

BTW, I were a troll, you'd know it without sniffing. I've been on message boards dating back to the old BBS's. Back before there were pretty pictures on the screen.

I have no doubt that there is some discouragement going on. They don't me from Adam, and therefore, their best tactic is to try and defuse a situation before there is one. I understand it, and I don't begrudge them that. However, with the criminals encroching more and more on me and mine. I'm not looking to start trouble. I am attempting to avoid trouble.

And thank you for the welcomes. I just now realized that as long as I've been reading these boards, I hadn't posted.

imported post

Fair enough. What were you doing in the conference room of a cop shop?

I think its disturbing that the police continue to demonstrate a woefully inept knowledge of the law, (but isn't surprising)

More surprising is that the ADA's don't know the law either.

I presume upon reading this thread Jesus is already planning a trip to Mad-town northside precinct to do a little "on-the-job-training"

They'll know him when they see him. He's the guy with the t-shirt that says "have civil rights attorney on retainer, will travel"

For the sake of Madison taxpayers I hope Tthey take it upon themselves to know the law a little better right quick.



Carry on!

imported post

MadtownTim wrote:

Here is one thing to keep in mine while open carrying.

This is coming from information gotten during a recent discussion about open carry in Madison, with a Police seargant.

Paraphrasing as I understood what she said to me: if you are out walking your dog, and someone calls to notify us of a man with a gun, and they are scared/worried, a patrol car will roll, they will draw their weapons and you will most likely be cited for disorderly conduct while armed.

This was reinforced with a phone call to the DA's office here in Madison. In speaking with 2 different ADAs, we were told that if someone calls and complains that they see a man with a gun and they are nervous, they would roll a squad, draw their weapons and I would be prosecuted for DC while armed.

Given the description of the incident above, I'm surprised that they didn't bring up DC while armed. Though the Plover PD has always been a bit over-zealous in their enforcement policies anyway.

Click to expand...

Cops will say a lot. Most of it, is what they would like to see, not what is real. People are open carrying in Madison. That is a fact...

imported post

Nutczak wrote:

We still have a gun-shop owner stating falsehoods like Tim has repeated. His latest one is "You won't be bothered anywhere out of the downtowm area. but step into downtown while carrying and you'll get arrested"

Well I think I proved that one wrong with this!

Click to expand...

OK Nutczak, I am a little confused, are you one of the guys that are packin heat or are you the little dude in the gray hoodie at the other end of the side walk?

imported post

hugh jarmis wrote:

Fair enough. What were you doing in the conference room of a cop shop?

I think its disturbing that the police continue to demonstrate a woefully inept knowledge of the law, (but isn't surprising)

More surprising is that the ADA's don't know the law either.

I presume upon reading this thread Jesus is already planning a trip to Mad-town northside precinct to do a little "on-the-job-training"

They'll know him when they see him. He's the guy with the t-shirt that says "have civil rights attorney on retainer, will travel"

For the sake of Madison taxpayers I hope Tthey take it upon themselves to know the law a little better right quick.

Click to expand...

Hey Jesus, if you need a ride, drop me a line. Sounds like Madison could use a few good people to try and help out...
Carry on!

imported post

I had stopped in as I was looking for clarification on what constituted "concealed" with regards to a holster (i.e. how much of a gun did I need to show).

Now, to answer the next question that will be coming, I was looking to get a holster and was trying to decide whether to IWB or OWB. I've heard positive things about both, so I figured I'd see if their decision eliminated one or the other. The other thing is I anticipated the answers that I got. They didn't shock me or even mildly surprise me. I'm not stupid.

I went there in good faith, looking for clarification on how much I needed to show to remain within the law. Going to the conference room was my idea as there were others in the lobby and figured it would be more comfortable for all concerned, especially given that one of the other people in the lobby was a 70sish man discussing a court case with one of the other officers. Give him whatever privacy I could, while still be able to discuss my questions without having to deal with interlopers.

imported post

The best advice I can give you is never ask for permission to carry or clarification on a law from any officer, DA, whatever. They will almost always err on the side of caution and say no. It doesn't matter what they've been told or that they've read the AG's memo they will likely say no. Nobody will want to go on record at this point and say they don't have a problem with it unless they have to. By asking them you are giving them power over your actions. Research the laws, seek out some training, and go exercise you rights. It feels great.

imported post

I had a discussion with the police chief of my Madison suburan community. I figured that if I get stopped, they will be aware of what I was doing - and why. Although hewascourteous anddid not do the Flynn routine, he did dothe "I am a hunter ....I don't understand what you people are trying to prove" bit.

As a member of the ACLU and several 2nd Amendment organizations - NRA, GOA, JPFO, WGO - I found his lack of appreciation for constitutional rights distrubing.

The Nevada ACLU is speaking up for open carry rights. Maybe a some point Wisconsin's will also, given that it is the only way the right to bear arms granted by our state constitution can be exercised.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum66/27923.html

I have oc in Madison and my community since. So far there has been no reaction from anyone.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum57/27077.html

imported post

I went there in good faith, looking for clarification on how much I needed to show to remain within the law.

Click to expand...

Its kind of sad that it is the case, BUT its become abundantly clear to all of us that the police are the LAST and WORST resource to depend on when it comes to your rights.

It seems as if they SHOULD be the first resource. Unfortunately because of the "command and control" verses "serve and protect"attitude they have, they are not.

In addition, the police have no legal obligation to tell you the truth. In fact, (while I"m not quick with the case-law citations as others are) I believe the police DO NOT even have a legal obligation to protect you.

The Police oder of priority seems to be to: -protect themselves first, -protect the government interests second, -generate revuenue for the government through victimless crime "regulation"/Malum prohibitumenforcement third -protect the rights of law-abiding citizens last, and only if they get to play hero in doing so.

imported post

I have never heard of the police in any town giving out free legal advice. At least none that is worth listening too. I think if I went to the local PD and wanted some info and then suggested that I be allowed to use the conference room, the only thing I would get would be laughed at.

They don't even want to talk to you unless it is through a window. After the recent memo was distributed by the AG and since it has been weeks since that has occurred any officer threatening to arrest me for doing something which is perfectly legal would be informed of my intent to file a lawsuit against them and own everything they have.

The funny thing is that everyone out there only thinks of how much it would cost them for an attorney. The fact of the matter is, if you win, and you will win with out a doubt, the loser pays your attorney fees. So with that in mind and the fact that there are many attorneys out there that will either go for attorney fees or take their fees out of your winnings, who has the most too lose?

The evidence is in your favor.

imported post

I am not criticizing Hubert by any means, I think he did very well, but...

What if it went like this?


Go into Wal-Mart tonight in Plover. Carried there several times before without issue.

I buy mouse pads and check-out. Then go to Sub-Way (inside Wal-Mart).

As I am ordering a sub, A young guy walks up to me:

W-Mart: Are you a police officer?

Me: No.

W-Mart: Do you have a permit to carry that?

Me: Actually, Wisconsin does not have or require permits to carry.

W-Mart: We had a few people say they were nervous.

Me: No need to be nervous, I am not doing anything other than eating.

W-Mart: Thank you sir.

Me: You're welcome.

I finish ordering the sub, sit down and eat. When I finish, I go back up to the counter and order two(2) more subs to take home to the family. As I am paying for the second order, the subway guy says, "I think there are people here to talk to you." I say, ya, kinda figured. I pay for the subs, and ask if I can get a little more soda. Subway guy says sure. I get a little more soda, and head out of Subway into Wal-Mart. As I step into Wal-Mart, I am met by three (3) LEO.

Leo1: Hello, I am officer xxx from the Plover Police department. The management here contacted us stating you are making people nervous and they would like yo to leave.

Me: I wasn't aware of that. They did not ask me to leave, if they had, I would have left.

Leo1: Although open carry is legal, they didn't feel comfortable asking you to leave so they contacted us.

Me: No problem, I am finished anyway, I'll head on out.

Leo1: Do you have some ID?

Me: Am I required to give you ID? I do, how ever, I am not required to show you ID, my name is ............

Leo1: When we are asked to ask you to leave, you are. Is that defined in the statutes?

Me: I don't believe I am, but rather than argue, I will provide ID under duress. I do not believe I am, however, my ID is in my wallet. I do not consent to any search at this time.

I give him the ID, he starts the call in process. Let them take your license out of your pocket.

Leo2: There is another guy who lives here in Plover who open carries a lot. I thought you might be that guy.

Me: I wasn't aware of that. No Comment

Leo1: Is this your current address?

Me: Yes.

Leo1: Your phone number?

Me: xxx-xxx-xxxx No Comment

Leo2: I assume you are well versed on Open Carry and realize that the property owners can ask you to leave.

Me: Yes, and if they had asked, I would have left immediately. Since the Subway staff did not ask me to leave I did not leave.

Leo1: Here is you license back. Where are you parked, by this entrance or the other one?

Me: By the other, but I can use this entrance, and walk across the parking lot.

Leo2: Should we start out?

Me: No problem, I walk out the door followed by the three LEO.

Leo1: Thank you for cooperating with us.

Me: Have a nice evening. Would this be a great time to say, " By the way officer I just want you to know that I will be filing an open records request on this incident and I plan on filing a civil suit under Title 42 > Chapter 21 > Subchapter I > Section 1983 of the U.S.Code against the person or persons who have had me removed from this property for simply exercising my rights as an American?"

It would be interesting to see the response. You know they will more than likely pass that along to the manager.

We need to start expressing that we are not going to keep accepting the fact that some one can complain and then we are not allowed to exercise our rights.

§ 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any
State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of
the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights,
privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured
in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action
brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity,
injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief
was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to
the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.

This is powerful.... This is an act of Congress..... a gift, if you will, that will give you the upper hand any time you are interrupted while exercising any of your rights under the constitution. Why aren't we using this? Am I missing something here?

We could make up a business card that has this in print and give one to the officers, only after they ask you to leave. Maybe they will lose a little sleep over it who knows.

imported post

I believe that the proper, certainly common, format for a federal code or regulation citation is XX usc/cfr xxx, Title XX, Subsection xxx of the USC or CFR

imported post

OMG you must be bored.

imported post

Nope, just taking a break from studying my new tractor, a Ford/NH 3910 about 20 years old. It just arrived today while I was cleaning 330# of whitefish for Independence Day fish boil. Then I'm off to the AmLegion meeting to finalize the FB plans. Exciting life!

ETA much later: and I have been relieved as Adjutant - thank GOoDness! We got
four cases of .30 caliber saluting rounds for our Garands. I wonder how many other Posts are still using Garands.