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Thread: Some Police Interactions in NEPA

  1. #1
    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    A few weeks ago, while using the computer at the local public library, I felt a hand on my shoulder, and that hand applied some pressure. I quickly snapped my neck to my right, to see 3 officers standing there. The one that had his hand on my shoulder began to tug on my gun. It was a 1911 in a SERPA holster, so he had a bit of difficulty.

    "What are you doing?" I demanded. He ignored me, until he figured it out. Once he had it in his "care", he instructed me to accompany him to the stairwell. "Let me log out of my email, first," I said, turning back to the computer. He glared at me, but waited. Once I was done, I followed.

    "Do you have ID on you?"

    "Yes."

    "Give it to me."

    "Why?"

    "Give it to me."

    "Why?"

    "You're carrying a gun."

    "So?"

    "I need to see your ID."

    "Why?"

    "We got a call from someone about a man with a gun, alright! We're obligated to investigate any call about a man with a gun. I need to see your ID."

    "A man with a gun....doing what?"

    "What?"

    "You said you call about a man with a gun. What was he doing with it? Waving it around? Pointing it someone? Cleaning it? What was this man with a gun doing?"

    "We..."

    "Because last I checked, a man simply checking email while carrying isn't a crime. In fact, open carrying isn't a crime at all. You have no reason to be here. You sure as @#$% didn't have any reason to grab me, or grab my @#$%ing gun."

    "Watch your mouth."

    "Protected speech. Watch your ass."

    One of the other officers was trying to figure out how to unload it. It seems to ambi-safety confused him.

    "Drop the mag first, then click off the safety, from either side, then rack the slide." He shot me a dirty look, but did it.

    The third officer was one I knew from another encounter, that went rather smoothly. She leaned over to the lead officer, and informed him that she knew me, and made him aware I'd attended a rather infamous get together in Dickson City. He glared at her, and turned back to me.

    "Are you gonna show me your ID, or are you gonna be difficult?"

    "That depends. Am I gonna need a lawyer?"

    "How did you get here?"

    "I drove."

    "Since you're so smart, you know you need that to drive with that gun."

    "I know that full well."

    He paused, then looked me over. "You have any other weapons on you?"

    Clever bastard. "Yes."

    "What, and where?"

    ".38 Special in my left pocket, and a knife in my back pocket." He relieved me of them.

    "Now, give me your ID." I handed it over.

    I stood there, with two birds in my hands, while he ran my ID, the librarians staring in horror. The one officer held my revolver, but she kept it loaded.

    After I came back "clear", the lead officer insructed the others to give me my guns back. "You can load that in the bathroom downstairs, or wherever, in private."

    "I can load it now, since you confiscated it for no @#$%ing reason other than to be an @#$%," and did so.

    "What did I tell you about your mouth?"

    "I wasn't listening. Would you care to tell me about protected speech again?"

    "Next time, instead of looking for attention, conceal it, or just leave it home." He still had my wallet in his hand.

    "Are you done?"

    "Yeah, we're done."

    "Good," I said, snatching my wallet back. I turned to the other officers, and wrote their names down. I turned to the last officer, and said, "You, at least, should have known better." I paused. "Actually, you all know better. I know that you all received the updated MPOETC memo on open carry. I'll be down at the station later. Maybe I'll see you again."

    As I walked away, I heard the lead officer mutter, "You wanted the attention, you got it..."

    I did as promised, and filed a pretty wordy complaint, filled with details I ommitted here.

    Last week, while walking my dog, I noticed a patrol car slow down, then make a hasty u-turn. he pulled up alongside me.

    "Hey! What are you doing?"

    "Hey! I'm walking my dog!"

    "No, with that gun!"

    "I'm walking my dog." I stopped and faced him.

    "You got a permit for that?"

    "I have a license to carry it concealed."

    "Can I see it?"

    I raised my hand slightly, and waved it in the air in front of me. "You don't need to see my identification."

    "Huh?"

    "These aren't the droids you're looking for."

    He frowned, and drove away.

    Talk to you guys later...
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    Regular Member lprgcFrank's Avatar
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    You da man!

    I am definitely stealing that line about these are not the droids you are looking for next time I have an other than routine encounter!!!


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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    You did good. I'd steal that "droid" line as well, except in Georga you're required to carry the Geogia Firearms License on your body when you're carrying either openly or concealed.

    Hmmmmm... but accorting to statute there is no requirement to produce said GFL, that might make for an interesting bit of case law one day.

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    After laughing loud enough to raise attention to myself I notice that you
    didn't state you were protecting the dog from strays.
    Maybe bring up mating habits, and how the dog isn't interested in him this time,
    so try again latter.

    Going to rent star wars and get the wave right myself. I am practicing my
    russian language responses to those invasive questions. Complying while
    keeping quite, the best of both worlds.





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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sic 'em.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Good job!!! You don't have it recorded by chance do you? I'd love to hear that conversation.

    why they messing with your irie......lol....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    "Now, give me your ID." I handed it over.

    Awww come on man, you were going strong until that point. I loved it overall, though. I would have responded that I was going to be difficult.

    I LOVE some jedi mind trick.

    You ARE going to sue them, right?

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    no, i'm not suing. i couldn't really, even if i wanted to. lawyers around here wouldn't touch my case with a 10' long, irradiated pole. if it were a 1A or 4A issue, they would, but not a 2A issue. even if i could find one, i couldn't afford the retainer. i'll have to settle for being a pain in the Scranton PDs ass for awhile. since the incident, i've been making weekly visits to the station, to get updates, and to let them know i'm not going away.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    no, i'm not suing. i couldn't really, even if i wanted to. lawyers around here wouldn't touch my case with a 10' long, irradiated pole. if it were a 1A or 4A issue, they would, but not a 2A issue. even if i could find one, i couldn't afford the retainer. i'll have to settle for being a pain in the Scranton PDs ass for awhile. since the incident, i've been making weekly visits to the station, to get updates, and to let them know i'm not going away.
    Who knows? Maybe they'll get frustrated and do something REALLY actionable.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    no, i'm not suing. i couldn't really, even if i wanted to. lawyers around here wouldn't touch my case with a 10' long, irradiated pole. if it were a 1A or 4A issue, they would, but not a 2A issue. even if i could find one, i couldn't afford the retainer. i'll have to settle for being a pain in the Scranton PDs ass for awhile. since the incident, i've been making weekly visits to the station, to get updates, and to let them know i'm not going away.
    Thank you for your dedication to OC. If everyone followed your example, the man would think twice before harassing citizens exercising their rights. Thanks again.

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    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    SNIP if it were a 1A or 4A issue, they would, but not a 2A issue.
    Jedi mind tricks? ROFL!!!!!!!



    Separately, this stop was almost entirely a 4A and 5A issue. I know this isn't going to change any attorney or ACLU opinions in Jahwarriors neighborhood. I'm highlighting for readers that when you are illegally detained, etc., it is not particularly a 2A issue.

    The non-consensual nature of the encounter throws it into the category of a Terry Stop.1 Terry and related court opinions are most definitely 4A case law.

    The ID document demand throws it into the category of Hiibel.2 Hiibelis most definitely 5th Amendment case law.

    I mention this because I would like to see formal complaints that focus on the 4A and 5A violations. I am convinced from reports on this forum and wider reading that it is not all that uncommon for police to violate 4A and 5A rights this way.

    1. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html



    2. http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-5554.ZO.html
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    no, i'm not suing. i couldn't really, even if i wanted to. lawyers around here wouldn't touch my case with a 10' long, irradiated pole. if it were a 1A or 4A issue, they would, but not a 2A issue. even if i could find one, i couldn't afford the retainer. i'll have to settle for being a pain in the Scranton PDs ass for awhile. since the incident, i've been making weekly visits to the station, to get updates, and to let them know i'm not going away.

    Ok, time out. If you aren't going to sue, then you should not complain about harassment or abuse. At all. You are encouraging this behavior by not taking any real action and are just as culpable as the perps themselves, IMHO.

    Who said anything about lawyers? Sue them pro se. And don't tell me how hard it is, your local federal court house has a pro-se guide on their website. If you can read, write, and speak in public, you can sue. If you can interpret laws and when to shoot/where you can carry, you can interpret civil rights laws.

    How much is the retainer? 1k?

    If you really can't afford it, file informa paupis. Money is not an excuse. You just don't want to do it, which means you aren't really pissed and are comfortable with your rights being violated.

    I also agree that this is more of a 4th/5th/14th amendment issue than anything.

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    Regular Member AlabamaFamilyMan's Avatar
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    jahwarrior72 wrote
    A few weeks ago, while using the computer at the local public library, I felt a hand on my shoulder, and that hand applied some pressure.

    Before IDing themselves? Is that assault?n


    He paused, then looked me over. "You have any other weapons on you?"

    Clever bastard. "Yes."

    "What, and where?"

    ".38 Special in my left pocket, and a knife in my back pocket." He relieved me of them.

    "Now, give me your ID." I handed it over.

    At this point the OP had admitted a CC weapon, and so WAS required to show the card. Or so I understand.

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    You know, many people are routinely horrified that my brother and I have agenerally poor opinionof about 95% of the police force we encounter and are not bashful about expressing it. My wife tells me on a regular basis that my attitude sucks. You, sir, are my new idol.

    You did exactly what I would like to think I would have done, and although making your displeasure known in the process, you remained well within the bounds of civilized behavior (a couple of *$&%# notwithstanding).

    Best of luck in your future encounters with the folks at that department.

    And a +1 for the notion that you should file a 4A/5A suit on your own, with or without a lawyer.

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    Crash7795 wrote:
    SNIP You, sir, are my new idol.
    Ithink many of us are cheering Jahwarrior72 putting the rights-violators to route.

    Its very important to understand the big picture, too.

    There are cops upon who Jahwarrior's tactics might trigger a really bad situation for the OCer--false arrest, planted evidence, false allegations, law "stretched" into a citation or arrest. Even if the OCer wins in criminal court, the legal expenses would be more than many might be able to afford. I won't discuss the consequences of losing. There are also the employment consequences of an arrest record. Expungement isn't all you might think in today's electronic world.

    I think Jahwarrior recognized he had the upper hand with those particular cops early. Meaning, he knew there was a strong possibility they would back down.

    Unless you are really sure of your ability to judge people (the cop) and are willing to risk the consequences of being wrong, I recommend standing on your rights (as the situation allows/dictates), and being polite.

    In his book You and the Police, author Boston T. Party, says that your two most important goals are to not give the police officermore justification than he believes he already has and to separate yourself from the officeras quickly as possible. And, here is the point Boston makes that puts it all in perspective: Nothing good can come from prolonging the contact.

    While it feels good to put the rights-violators in their place, that does not outweigh the potential consequences of angering a cop who has low integrity.

    The safest time to put the rights-violators in their place is after the encounter when you are no longer in their hands.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    Nothing good can come from prolonging the contact.
    I have to agree with you, sir. Between my brother and I, we have more run-ins with cops than most people have appendages (although some of that is due to growing up the son of a cop and just being known to them throughout the county and a good part of the state), and I am just as happy to minimize my interaction in general.

    That being said, I'm still a big fan of the OP's story, & to a lesser degree, the outcome to date.

    Oh, FWIW,while I can't speak to the effect of the"These are not the droids you're looking for" line with LEOs, I can unequivocally state that senior Naval officers are not, in general, fans of the expression. :P

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Crash7795 wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Nothing good can come from prolonging the contact.
    I have to agree with you, sir. .........snip
    Prolonged verbal sparring or head-to-head debates with an officer bent on controlling his environment may well end with you wearing new wrist jewelry - even if you are technically right it can be an expensive date.

    IMO - in most cases it is better to follow through from a safe distance.

    I do some of my best work from behind the tree line.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    no, i'm not suing. i couldn't really, even if i wanted to. lawyers around here wouldn't touch my case with a 10' long, irradiated pole. if it were a 1A or 4A issue, they would, but not a 2A issue. even if i could find one, i couldn't afford the retainer. i'll have to settle for being a pain in the Scranton PDs ass for awhile. since the incident, i've been making weekly visits to the station, to get updates, and to let them know i'm not going away.
    What you have described is A 4A issue... one of Unwarranted seizure of your property and person!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    JoeSparky wrote:
    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    no, i'm not suing. i couldn't really, even if i wanted to. lawyers around here wouldn't touch my case with a 10' long, irradiated pole. if it were a 1A or 4A issue, they would, but not a 2A issue. even if i could find one, i couldn't afford the retainer. i'll have to settle for being a pain in the Scranton PDs ass for awhile. since the incident, i've been making weekly visits to the station, to get updates, and to let them know i'm not going away.
    What you have described is A 4A issue... one of Unwarranted seizure of your property and person!
    Now, now. Terry and all the detentions ever done under its cover were unwarranted.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    "aren't the droids you're looking for"

    F'ing awesome. Wish I had the guts you do.

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    Citizen wrote:
    JoeSparky wrote:
    jahwarrior72 wrote:
    no, i'm not suing. i couldn't really, even if i wanted to. lawyers around here wouldn't touch my case with a 10' long, irradiated pole. if it were a 1A or 4A issue, they would, but not a 2A issue. even if i could find one, i couldn't afford the retainer. i'll have to settle for being a pain in the Scranton PDs ass for awhile. since the incident, i've been making weekly visits to the station, to get updates, and to let them know i'm not going away.
    What you have described is A 4A issue... one of Unwarranted seizure of your property and person!
    Now, now. Terry and all the detentions ever done under its cover were unwarranted.
    OK word games afoot here...

    As to my comment above about this being an "Unwarranted" seizure, I meant "Unwarrented" in the context of no RAS and no basis for getting a WARRANT, and in fact not having a Warrent!

    Terry stops are UNWARRANTED in the context of NO WARRANT but there IS RAS and as such are therefore LEGAL as presently interpreted by the courts.:what::what:

    Citizen... touche!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    JoeSparky wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Now, now. Terry and all the detentions ever done under its cover were unwarranted.
    OK word games afoot here...

    As to my comment above about this being an "Unwarranted" seizure, I meant "Unwarrented" in the context of no RAS and no basis for getting a WARRANT, and in fact not having a Warrent!

    Terry stops are UNWARRANTED in the context of NO WARRANT but there IS RAS and as such are therefore LEGAL as presently interpreted by the courts.:what::what:

    Citizen... touche!
    Citizen doesn't mince words but he does half a few that aren't entirely a whole.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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  25. #25
    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    i've recently received an update from Lt. Thomas, the daytime shift commander for the Scranton PD during the day. the main officer in question was given a formal reprimand, and the entire shift received the updated MPOETC training memo on open carry, again. he made copies of the one i printed out for him, and they are now posted on the wall. he made sure to specify, though, that officers on his shift were made aware of the legality of open carry. so, i guess that's something.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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