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Thread: Definition of School Zone

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    We all hear about the 1000 ft. Gun Free Zones around schools. To my understanding, 18.922 does not define a school zone, nor say anything about 1000 feet.

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

    Is a school zone defined somewhere else that mentions 1000 feet?

    Colorado has no state law that prohibits "school zone" carry. Do both local and state cops have no authority to arrest you, since it is a federal law? Can you only be arrested by, say, the FBI or ATF for violating 18.922?

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Look at USC Title 18 Sec 921 (a) 25

    (25) The term ``school zone'' means--
    (A) in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or privateschool; or
    (B) within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of apublic, parochial or private school.



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    Does this apply to colleges and universities?

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    hansolo wrote:
    We all hear about the 1000 ft. Gun Free Zones around schools. To my understanding, 18.922 does not define a school zone, nor say anything about 1000 feet.

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

    Is a school zone defined somewhere else that mentions 1000 feet?

    Colorado has no state law that prohibits "school zone" carry. Do both local and state cops have no authority to arrest you, since it is a federal law? Can you only be arrested by, say, the FBI or ATF for violating 18.922?

    One could argue the Federal Law is unconstitutional and take it to the Supreme Court... that is if you feel like a long drawn out fight. You couldfight it on the basis that the 2nd Amendment clearly states that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed... and the Heller case said that while it is an individual right, they see no reason or limits on 'common sense' regulations... what a load of malarkey.

    On the dissenting side, we see the wholly dishonest Stephen Breyer spouting well articulated lies where he states "Different language surely would have been used to protect nonmilitary use and possession of weapons from regulation if such an intent had played any role in the drafting of the Amendment."

    He willingly disregards the thoughts and opinions of those who actually wrote the Amendment and injects his own bias into the 'role in the drafting' clause in his ridiculous statement. In his single sentence, we can clearly see the contempt and hatred that the Liberal judges on the bench have for individual rights and for the Constitution. Otherwise, how could one ignore this:

    "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."~ George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment, during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves..." ~ Richard Henry Lee, writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

    "The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." ~ Zachariah Johnson, Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."

    "And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms;..." ~ Samuel Adams quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence ... from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." ~ George Washington, First President of the United States

    "The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside ...Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." ~ Thomas Paine

    "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." ~ Richard Henry Lee American Statesman, 1788

    "The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun." ~ Patrick Henry, American Patriot

    "Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" ~ Patrick Henry, American Patriot

    "Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not." ~ Thomas Jefferson, Writer of the Declaration of Independence and third President of the United States

    "The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that ... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; ..." ~ Thomas Jefferson, letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

    "The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~ Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8

    "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." ~ John Adams

    "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, that could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it." ~ James Madison, "The Influence of the State and Federal Governments Compared," 46 Federalist New York Packet, January 29, 1788
    __________________________________________________ _________________

    There are more quotes, but this is more than enough to completely invalidate the justices' arguments that the founders did not intend the right to keep and bear arms to be an individual right that should not be regulated in any way that would "infringe" on the right to keep and bear arms.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    hansolo wrote:
    Does this apply to colleges and universities?
    Take a few minutes and actually look up the references that were noted in the previous response and you will find the answers.











    or if you need to be spoonfed the information, just below (25) is (26).

    (26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary
    or secondary education, as determined under State law.


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    Decoligny wrote:
    hansolo wrote:
    Does this apply to colleges and universities?
    Take a few minutes and actually look up the references that were noted in the previous response and you will find the answers.











    or if you need to be spoonfed the information, just below (25) is (26).

    (26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary
    or secondary education, as determined under State law.
    Thanks for the baby food. I just now found the definitions section.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Sorry for the snippy attitude, it's been a long day.

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    I was searching the web for a school zone map. I found this link from a google search. I don't know who is behind it, but it is really cool. It maps out the gun free school zones on a rudimentary basis. Don't know if its been published here before or not, but here it is. FYI...in my area this map leaves out virtually all of the private schools. But it does look like a really good first effort. Does anyone know who is behind it and whether or not we can submit private school data to make it more accurate?

    http://www.0xdecafbad.com/gfsz/#




    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Is anyone or any group fighting the school zone bans on Constitutional grounds? I mean seriously... accept their premise... lose the argument.

    The minute you accept the premise of the other side, you will never win. So arguing about the ban and what it really says is like giving up.

    Any Federal ban is illegal. If States want to regulate gun carry on school grounds... then that is their business.

    When the Constitution is ignored, then there is only one thing left to do.


    Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. ~ George Washington

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    Is anyone or any group fighting the school zone bans on Constitutional grounds? I mean seriously... accept their premise... lose the argument.

    The minute you accept the premise of the other side, you will never win. So arguing about the ban and what it really says is like giving up.

    Any Federal ban is illegal. If States want to regulate gun carry on school grounds... then that is their business.

    When the Constitution is ignored, then there is only one thing left to do.

    I totally agree. By the way, I have some cousins out on Mercer Island.

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    Is anyone or any group fighting the school zone bans on Constitutional grounds? I mean seriously... accept their premise... lose the argument.

    The minute you accept the premise of the other side, you will never win. So arguing about the ban and what it really says is like giving up.

    Any Federal ban is illegal. If States want to regulate gun carry on school grounds... then that is their business.

    When the Constitution is ignored, then there is only one thing left to do.
    *
    The Federal Ban was already proven an unconstitutional extension of the commerce clause in United States vs. Lopez. In my uneducated non-lawyerly non-legal advice opinion, the changes made by the Congress were not sufficient to make it constitutional based on the reasons the supreme court found it unconstitutional.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez

    Also, this is a somewhat interesting article: http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.p...+L.+J.+637+pdf

    State school zone laws are another story.

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    Felid`Maximus wrote:
    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    Is anyone or any group fighting the school zone bans on Constitutional grounds? I mean seriously... accept their premise... lose the argument.

    The minute you accept the premise of the other side, you will never win. So arguing about the ban and what it really says is like giving up.

    Any Federal ban is illegal. If States want to regulate gun carry on school grounds... then that is their business.

    When the Constitution is ignored, then there is only one thing left to do.
    The Federal Ban was already proven an unconstitutional extension of the commerce clause in United States vs. Lopez. In my uneducated non-lawyerly non-legal advice opinion, the changes made by the Congress were not sufficient to make it constitutional based on the reasons the supreme court found it unconstitutional.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lopez

    Also, this is a somewhat interesting article: http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.p...+L.+J.+637+pdf

    State school zone laws are another story.
    Colorado has no such "zone" ban. It only bans upon the real or erected property of a school.

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    Does anyone know if CA has a school zone gun ban? What about other states? Has anyone created a quick "cheat sheet" list on this?
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Regular Member coolusername2007's Avatar
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    I found the answer to my own question for CA; California Gun Free School Zone Act of 1995,penal code 626.9.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Washintonian_For_Liberty wrote:
    Is anyone or any group fighting the school zone bans on Constitutional grounds? I mean seriously... accept their premise... lose the argument.

    The minute you accept the premise of the other side, you will never win. So arguing about the ban and what it really says is like giving up.

    Any Federal ban is illegal. If States want to regulate gun carry on school grounds... then that is their business.

    When the Constitution is ignored, then there is only one thing left to do.

    And I would argue that state bans are also illegal and unconstitutional, because;

    1) The United States Constitution protects your rights at the HIGHEST level, it is the SUPREME law of the land...no state can make a law that circumvents the protections of the U.S. Constitution in any way...any such law would automatically be unconstitutional by its very nature;

    and

    2) (keeping in mind that private schools, like private businesses and so on, all private property, are ALWAYS different) EVERY K-12 public school, every college and every university, that is not a PRIVATE school is GOVERNMENT PROPERTY and an extension of the government, thereby making the employees of that school representatives of the government; and representatives/arms/offices of the government, be they federal, state or local, CANNOT infringe on your Constitutionally protected rights, whether they be federal or state rights. That is the WHOLE point of the Constitution...to protect our natural God given rights from being taken from us or infringed upon by ANY arm, office or representative of ANY level of the government!!

    I wish someone would challenge the "administrative rule" garbage that states like mine have enacted, which allow state owned, operated and run colleges and universities to circumvent the Constitution. All it will take is one successful challenge in ANY state to start a wave of cases in EVERY state!!

    Dave

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    The Federal Weapon Free School Zone Act uses the States' definition of school property as its basis.

    Michigan's definition of school property includes vehicles used to transport students to and from school and school events. This could include school buses and vans/SUVs transporting students to after school athletic/band programs as well. See where I'm going with this?

    If a 1000 foot radius around 'school property' includes 'vehicles transporting students', an aggressive Prosecuting Attorney could argue a 1000' moving zone around every school bus and school vehicle, including those used for field trips.

    Never happen? Who would have believed 10 years ago you'd have to take your shoes off to board an aircraft!

    Carry on.

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    Regular Member turbodog's Avatar
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    Decoligny wrote:
    hansolo wrote:
    Does this apply to colleges and universities?
    Take a few minutes and actually look up the references that were noted in the previous response and you will find the answers.











    or if you need to be spoonfed the information, just below (25) is (26).

    (26) The term "school" means a school which provides elementary
    or secondary education, as determined under State law.
    Check the school zone law of your state. Louisiana's includes colleges, universities and even vo-tech schools.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLT View Post
    Him: "I carry my gun concealed"
    Me: "You're not very good at it"
    Him: "What do you mean?"
    Me: "I know you have a gun"
    End of conversation.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Some pretty good references can be found at gun shops, gun shows and online:

    Gun Laws of AmericaEvery Federal Gun Law on the books by Alan Korwin & Attorney Michael P. Anthony.

    They wlso put out books about individual state's gun laws. Both of my books are well-used. LOTS of good info available.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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