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Thread: Conversation with a Burien Officer

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    I work as a medic in a local department and yesterday I had a very interesting conversation with a Burien police officer.

    This officer was guarding his prisoner while he was receiving treatment at the hospital. I started talking to him about his Glock and mentioned I was interested in getting the Glock 27 to carry in the summer. He said he had one too and really liked it. He then mentioned how his wife is the only one who can tell when he is carrying it. I said you can always oc and then concealment isn't an issue. This is where things got interesting.

    He said he would not oc because a bunch of people would call 911 and the police would show up and draw down on you and take you to the ground. I then said that oc is legal in Washington, so what would give them the right to take me down. He acknowledged that it was legal, but that the officers don't know what I might do and they need to protect themselves. He even said they might taze me. So my next question was, "You're telling me that if I'm in the grocery store shopping with my 2 year old son in the cart that the cops will take me down and possibly taze me if I am oc'ing?" He said it very well could happen. I was astonished. From this conversation I figured that he had never run across anyone who was oc'ing.

    I have to say that this guy was not a jerk and was very cool to talk to. He just has a completely warped idea of what is ok for officers to do in an oc situation.

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    It seems the more they claim "officer safety", the more I think "personal safety".

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    They do this mostly to scare you into not doing it. It's their way of controlling you. Luckily, most of them are too much of a coward to actually act out their "hero" fantasies.

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    Did you get a name by chance? PM if you wish.

    What time was this yesterday?

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    it'll be a shoot first ask questions later mentality soon.



    officer -but judge he had a gun on him.

    Judge - ok justified shooting

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    abdogg1684 wrote:
    SNIP He acknowledged that it was legal, but that the officers don't know what I might do and they need to protect themselves. He even said they might taze me. So my next question was, "You're telling me that if I'm in the grocery store shopping with my 2 year old son in the cart that the cops will take me down and possibly taze me if I am oc'ing?" He said it very well could happen. I was astonished. From this conversation I figured that he had never run across anyone who was oc'ing.

    I have to say that this guy was not a jerk and was very cool to talk to. He just has a completely warped idea of what is ok for officers to do in an oc situation.
    This is a confession of institutionalized disregard for the 4th Amendment, and should be handled as such.

    Suggested handling, "Officer,you understand youjust admitted that officers in your department ignore the 4th Amendment. Do I need toreport thisconversation to the District Attorney and the local criminal defense attorney association?" Adjust to fit the circumstances.

    So, let me see. Cops investigate what they know islegal, with no other circumstancesin sight to give reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS). But don't know what the non-criminal might do, so they point guns at him, and maybe tazer him.

    Hmmmmm. I'm pretty darn certain that violates every bit of Terry1-related case law. No RAS = no justification for a compulsory stop. Of course, pointing a gun at someone would definitely fall under the heading ofno reasonable person would feel free to disregard the officer and walk away.2

    Also, there is a court opinion where the US Supreme Court expressly declined to modify the standard Terry analysis to make an exception for a gun.3

    Also, I seem to recall that police cannot create their own exingent circumstances. I should think the cop's statement about "not knowing what the OCer might do" would fall under the heading of creating their own exingent circumstances. It would be their decision to confront rather than observe from a distance. By getting that close without RAS, they are the ones creating the circumstances where they "worry" that the OCer might do something.

    That officer's report was laughably out of line. If he was trying to intimidate, he definitely picked the wrong way to present it--admitting rights violations. If hehonestly thought that was an OK thing to do, his professionalism on the 4A and Terry Stops just went out the window.

    1. Terry v Ohio http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...2_0001_ZO.html

    2. US vs Mendenhallhttp://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...6_0544_ZO.html

    3. Florida vs JL http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...9_0266_ZO.html


    Edited to add: Out of curiosity I googled "police may not create own exingent circumstances". All the early returns showed a relationship to warrants and entering homes. So, I'm not sure how this would apply to a Terry Stop, or even if it would apply at all.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Wow nice try, that guy clearly doesn't trust his fellow officers judgment. Granted I'm weary to even talk to a cop.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    I don't believe we have to answer to anyone for our personal protection.Not gov especially an Obama gov.not LE ..........No one!!!!As I and bookman explained to a couple of Kent cops that tried to corner me when I was waiting for a haircut.They ask me to step ouitside.I said no we can talk right here.(in front of all these people) One tried to lecture me about causing alarm and told me to cover up .I said no.One regonized me pretty much from the last Willow lake meet.I told them we were having an even bigger one on the 18th.The one officer kept trying to get me to step outside .I flat told him no.He asked me why I refused to cover up.I said ,I don't have to.He seemed to be getting a little pissed.I told them I have never been hasseled by any police ever except it seems to be kent cops that hassle folk.I told him I went to war for this country ,etc. I basically didn't answer to him or anyone else regarding my right to self protection..In so many words.The gal that cuts my hair looked out and said.Yeah he's here all the time never an issue .Then Bookman walks up and starts lecturing these guys and hands them invites to our meet.They just left.I got my hair cut and went about my business.I have sat down to coffee with many officers ,I will talk with mostLEO"S who have questions,I have stood and talked to many a LEO in really good coversations.But these Kent guys need to get their seirra hotel India Tango together....Trying to exert somekind of authority and it blew up in their face in front of people.

    By the way 2 ladies saw me in Fred Meyer and asked meif I was the one from Willow lake that carries all the time.I said yes I was.Told them about the meet.They said"We are glad to haveyou guys around,we feel a lot safer."The cops are never here.They also told me of some dealers in a particular building here.


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    DEROS72 wrote:
    SNIP I and bookman explained to a couple of Kent cops...
    My kind of story. With a great "happy ending."

    If you ever find yourself in a situation where you can lecture a cop again, get in a few licks for the 4th Amendment.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    What I find sad is the number of LEO's that DON't know the laws they are sworn to enforce.

    I've been on this planet longer than most on this forum and remember one clear trait that seems to be possessed by the average LEO. That they are Control Freaks. The like to bully and unfortunately all to many FTO's encourage this behavior. To push the issue right up to the limit.



    Take a look at the number of lawsuits filed against the many jurisdictions in this State and you will probably notice that lots of them are settled for "secret" sums of money. Yup! Taxpayer Money that is wasted all because someone likes to play the "bully" card.

    I have a friend who recently retired from a major force in the State of WA after over 30 years. He never never had a complaint filed over his treatment of a citizen. His answer when I asked him what the key to this all was "If I just go out and do my job it all comes to gether. If I do it right there won't be any problems." He served as a patrolman, detective, and finished his career doing special projects.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    I don't feel like typing the whole conversation.I will fill folks in more at the meet if interested.I also don't want any LEos looking at the board thinkingthat we seek confrontation.I have little tolerance for that either.There are cops around here that know my life story.Because they are good guys.

    The one guy kept pushing to go outside away from witnesses. That is waht put me off to start with.If you leos do that don't expect conversation.If they would have approached me differently I would have walked them over to Starbucks bought them a coffee and showed them pics of my grandson.Also don't lecture me on covering up becausea couple of people complained.Well how about i have tham make some one cover a hair style because its offensive..I told the one guy well you don't cover up do you? Would be hard to get to your weapon in an emergency.I don't cover for the same reason.This is the way i dress in the summer.period.They did not seem to like that there were people listening to them and me flat telling them no.With no further expaination.If I was outside they would have rousted me and made up anything they wanted to .AS I said it seems to be alot with KEnt cops.Most all the other LEO"S around here wave as they go by.I have sat on occasion with a couple of Demoines LEO"S for coffee, good guys.This one young guy just wanted to exert authority and got put down hard in front of a salon full of witnesses.If they would have said hey we got a call just wanted to see whats up ,have a nice day .That would have been the end of it.Bookman was outside after they walked out and tuned them a little more, politley and I did go out and talk to them politely basically saying please leave us alone.Then like I said gave them invites to our meet.They really weren't bad guys I just think the one was really not a people person..

    When they drove up they saw me walk into the salon and all the girls working there knew who I was .They didn't go running screaming from the building and had a bit of a laugh at these guys .I have the utmost respect for what police have to deal with but darn it don't start these gestapo approaches.Puts folks off............



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    A new generation of Officer's has spawned from a crime infested society. A cop is no longer Joe who lives next door, Fred the boy in blue walking the beat. COPS used to wave as they drove past, stop and talk to the kids while on patrol, talking to the kids has to be funded, organized and fit into the next quarter's calendar this days. A larger number of the new generation look down on the average citizen as inferior, seen as the Bad Guy at first glance, Darn Shame. I recall when my father retired and stated the new bread coming in was arrogant and cocky. That was a few generation ago, the arrogant and cocky have evolved into a paramilitary organization, we the civilian are not to be trusted, and to be controlled. They have learned that error on the side of caution overrules your right's, this is now common practice. They have completely embraced the concept of " easier the ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission" And from what I've seen on most posts the apologies are shallow at most, and will be repeated with the next citizen violation.
    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    amlevin wrote:
    SNIP What I find sad is the number of LEO's that DON't know the laws they are sworn to enforce.
    (not picking on you in particularAmlevin, just using your post to define my subject)

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!

    I can't take it anymore. I think I'm gonna strangle myself. But, before my detractors get too hopeful, I'll make another attempt at getting this across.

    The police do not need to know the laws they are sworn to enforce in order to avoid illegally detaining someone. All they need to know is thatthey do not know the behavior is against thelaw.

    Only if the behavior or suspected behavior is against the law do the police have legal authority to forcibly stop someone. See Terry v Ohio and subsequent, related court opinions.

    Knowing the law is a positive certainty of what the statute says.

    Not knowing the lawcan be either a positive certainty I do not know what thestatute says, or an uncertainty/doubt aboutwhat the statute says.In either of these cases, the LEOcan't possibly know he has the authority to detain someonebecausehe doesn't even know if the behavior isillegal.

    Themost an LEO can do under the latter circumstances is a consensual encounter or observe from a distance. See Terry.

    Most sour police-OCer encounters are not violations of the 2A. They are violations of the 4th Amendment.

    A third condition of not knowing the law could be an honest mistake about the statute; but in the case of OC, we have seen very few instancesreported where an LEO actually incorrectlythought he read a statute makingOCillegal,ormissed or forgot about pre-emption.

    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    That is exactly why we need to show numbers and who we are at this upcoming meet.They are getting thet attitude and we have to take a stand and let them know it will not be tolerated.Must be a mutual respect .These guys seemed concerened when they asked about the meet and i told them there could be as many as a 100 armed citizens there.Almost like a how dare we attitude with the one.Some I have met do mantain a we are billy bad a$$ and will overstep at any opportunity.Many are not.Look at any shooting incident.The victims are already dead by the time they show up and yetthey will parade around in their tach gear and m-4's trying to play like they saved the day and the rest of us are the problem, when they have accomplised nothing for the victims. Hence my determination to be able to protect myself family and property.They can't and won't do that .Some are getting dangerously close to that police state line and we have to take a stand with our basic rights.I don't mean at all to get deliberatly confrontational .But we still have to stand our ground with the 2nd ammendment and the 4thor we as a people are totally hosed.

    Look at the SS attitude during Katrina in New Orleans.They were viciously disarming and threatening average citizens all the while the bad guys were still out there looting.

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    The LEO who, back in May stopped me at the Federal Way transit center was a transplant from Texas. I had to inform him on Washington law, training bulletins & OpenCarry. He was the only LEO who has ever taken a Gun Rights Pamphlet from me.



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    I have no respect for an officer of law simply because they are an officer of the law. Some officers I've encountered don't understand that respect and trust are earned not given, when you approach a citizen as though they're below you your not earning my respect or trust.

    I grew up in Alaska most of my life and there I felt the Police could be trusted because they were good folk who respected the people, since moving here I no longer feel safe putting trust in the police and realize they're not just putting bad guys away they're out looking for anyone to put away.



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    FunkTrooper wrote:
    I have no respect for an officer of law simply because they are an officer of the law. Some officers I've encountered don't understand that respect and trust are earned not given, when you approach a citizen as though they're below you your not earning my respect or trust.

    I grew up in Alaska most of my life and there I felt the Police could be trusted because they were good folk who respected the people, since moving here I no longer feel safe putting trust in the police and realize they're not just putting bad guys away they're out looking for anyone to put away.

    For a place like Pullman, it pays the [city] bills...

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    911 Boss

    I do remember the officer's last name, but I do not want to give it out. I understand his view of what could and probably would happen is horrible and not something that was ever meant to happen in our republic. However he seemed like a good enough guy, just young and inexperienced possibly. (I hope) With me being a civil servant as well I just can't bring myself to put this guy out there like that and possibly get him in trouble. I know people will not agree with me, but I know what its like to have to deal with a complaint, especially given the fact that this was just a general conversation we were having as two public servants chatting about guns.

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    DEROS72 wrote:
    That is exactly why we need to show numbers and who we are at this upcoming meet.They are getting thet attitude and we have to take a stand and let them know it will not be tolerated.Must be a mutual respect .These guys seemed concerened when they asked about the meet and i told them there could be as many as a 100 armed citizens there...
    Could I kindlyask you to put spaces after the end of sentences, and to use paragraphs?

    I find your posts interesting, but they are simply too $#@$ hard for me to read.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    Sorry.....

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    I wish they would do that. I would be getting a new car with the license plate "THXBPD"

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