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Thread: Divided carry camps?

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    I'm new to this forum, though I'm not new to guns, I'm not new to carry methods, and I'm not new to life in general.

    Consider this: As you all know we are in a risky anti-gun political environment, why are we fighting each other? What a wasted effort !

    Personally speaking I'm not just in the OC camp, and I'm not just in the CC camp. I'm in both because they both fall under my 2A rights. I want both methods of carry to be available for me to choose from.

    Everytime someone makes a"negative public statement"with a gun whether it's a negligent discharge, illegally altered gun, carry issue or whatever, it removes another brick from under our 2A foundation.

    Proponents of CC make mistakes........Proponents of OC make mistakes..........those mistakes ripple outward to affect all gun owners. (I know other entities make mistakes also)

    I'm not here to lecture anyone or counsel anyone whatsoever. I'm just posting my observation about the riskiness for future gun rights.

    I've got a couple more thoughts about our future but I'll hold off for now and open this up for your comments.



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    Divisions are everywhere. Instead of OC vs CC think about the divisions there are regarding protecting "assault" weapons vs those gun owners who see no purpose for them and only care about "sporting" guns.
    President/ Founding Member
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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    It's not so much a matter of fighting, it's more of a refusal to learn on the part of most of the visitors to this board.
    Until they either learn or admit government is NOT their superior, nothing with them will ever improve.
    It's not so much an OC vs CC issue, but a free man vs intentional slave issue. I agree the government has gotten too big, and I think that everyone here knows that, but that's a mountain that you can't move alone and while you (or me) push against it, and if everyone here joined us with all of our energy, time and strength, we won't be going far or fast. Aside from the effects of some sort of revolution, to altercitizen's perception of their role in the government isan on-going task that will span many years of cultural/societal change. Getting citizens to recognize that government works for us is a great goal, should we give up on pushing the mountain? No, we shouldn't. Should pushing the mountain be our only goal? No, it shouldn't. Sometimes we have to be patient, and/or change tactics, or change our mission, but nevertheless continue to keep working productively for our 2A rights. It's easier to prepare food that is palatable rather than forcefeed someone.

    Every fourth of July I just shake my head in disbelief as most Amerikans celebrate their "independence."
    If they only knew. I spent part of my 4th writing the Governor, my state rep and senator, and the local NRA guyabout HB 523 in fact I mentioned the 4th in my email to them.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Prodefense,
    If you're operating under the guise of educating and converting the majority of Amerikans, well, good luck.We're back at trying to move that mountain again. The Amerikans (sic) can be easily educated and converted. Here's an example-allI haveto do is display irresponsible gun ownershipand through the media, I educated and converted them to be and vote anti-gun.This example proves they can be educated and converted but by my mistakes is of course, the wrong way. Do you remember themedia stories when some nut with an AK killed others? We all cringed and fretted about the next AW ban. With the help of the media they can potentially run to the ballot boxes in droves, misinformed as ever. If I OC/CC, either one, it doesn't matter, and goof up big time with police, media attention, etcI educated the public that "guns are bad". All philosophies aside the general population is swayed by the media. How does the saying go about arguing with someone that buys their ink by the barrel, us 2A people don't control the ink. Irresponsible gun ownership by whatever means is media fodder andaffects my 2A rights and can be as harmful (if not more) than anything done by the Brady Bunch.
    There are quite a few (enough?) aware AmeriCans to do what will need doing when the time comes. Which appears to be sooner than most think. This is a bit cryptic,are youreferring to riots, revolts, marches, political activism or what? Besides, why wait on a time that may not actually ever come. The ballot box approach has miserably failed, why continue to do the same thing over and over and over and over, expecting different results? I tend to agree but the ballot box isn't to blame, it is the uneducated/uninformed voters and I understand the frustration of dealing with them too (they're probably frustrated with me as well). Winning voters to "our side" works but it takes a LONG time; it sounds like you have given up or are too impatient. I understand, it is frustrating. Ask Einstein what that equates to. He ain't talkin' :P

    No, not everyone here knows government has far exceeded it's constitutional authority. THAT, in and of itself, is a major problem. Matter of fact, there are SOME here who appear to long for MORE government. Not that I agree with it, but the fact of the last presidential election suggests that many people want more government, theywant the government to take care of them. The pivot point is in swaying the middle class to one side or the other. There will always be people who want more government, I won't let that stop me, find another battle and just run around 'em.


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    prodefense wrote:
    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Prodefense,
    If you're operating under the guise of educating and converting the majority of Amerikans, well, good luck.We're back at trying to move that mountain again. The Amerikans (sic) can be easily educated and converted. Here's an example-allI haveto do is display irresponsible gun ownershipand through the media, I educated and converted them to be and vote anti-gun.This example proves they can be educated and converted but by my mistakes is of course, the wrong way. Do you remember themedia stories when some nut with an AK killed others? We all cringed and fretted about the next AW ban. With the help of the media they can potentially run to the ballot boxes in droves, misinformed as ever. If I OC/CC, either one, it doesn't matter, and goof up big time with police, media attention, etcI educated the public that "guns are bad". All philosophies aside the general population is swayed by the media. How does the saying go about arguing with someone that buys their ink by the barrel, us 2A people don't control the ink. Irresponsible gun ownership by whatever means is media fodder andaffects my 2A rights and can be as harmful (if not more) than anything done by the Brady Bunch.
    There are quite a few (enough?) aware AmeriCans to do what will need doing when the time comes. Which appears to be sooner than most think. This is a bit cryptic,are youreferring to riots, revolts, marches, political activism or what? Besides, why wait on a time that may not actually ever come. The ballot box approach has miserably failed, why continue to do the same thing over and over and over and over, expecting different results? I tend to agree but the ballot box isn't to blame, it is the uneducated/uninformed voters and I understand the frustration of dealing with them too (they're probably frustrated with me as well). Winning voters to "our side" works but it takes a LONG time; it sounds like you have given up or are too impatient. I understand, it is frustrating. Ask Einstein what that equates to. He ain't talkin' :P

    No, not everyone here knows government has far exceeded it's constitutional authority. THAT, in and of itself, is a major problem. Matter of fact, there are SOME here who appear to long for MORE government. Not that I agree with it, but the fact of the last presidential election suggests that many people want more government, theywant the government to take care of them. The pivot point is in swaying the middle class to one side or the other. There will always be people who want more government, I won't let that stop me, find another battle and just run around 'em.

    Hang around. You will learn that a small few n here, while toting gun rights as their cause, only use it as a platform for self promotion.

    You trying to insert logic into an illogical argument with some of these folks suddenly labels you a fascist.


    you have a point in your posts though.

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Accept the fact MOST Amerikans are NOT going to be swayed by anything you or I do. True and false statement. It is false in the fact that if I took that AK and killed people at a burger joint, I'd make national news and sway a bunch of people to be anti-gun. It is true in the fact that I (don't know about you) don't normally have the conduit to contactmost Americans.However, the small number of people I can influence doesn't prevent me from doing my small part as a responsible gun owner.
    You want your rights back? Take them back, quit worrying about making friends. I think thisadvice reveals something here. Markare you more of a "anti-authoritarian guy" or more of a "OC rights guy"? As for the last election, just more proof of what I just said.

    Einstein was defining "insanity." I know about Einstein's definition of insanity, I just found it impossible to actually ask him. For those who might not know.........Albert Einstein once said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. I agree, that is a very scary thought.

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    prodefense wrote:
    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Accept the fact MOST Amerikans are NOT going to be swayed by anything you or I do. True and false statement. It is false in the fact that if I took that AK and killed people at a burger joint, I'd make national news and sway a bunch of people to be anti-gun. It is true in the fact that I (don't know about you) don't normally have the conduit to contactmost Americans.However, the small number of people I can influence doesn't prevent me from doing my small part as a responsible gun owner.
    You want your rights back? Take them back, quit worrying about making friends. I think thisadvice reveals something here. Markare you more of a "anti-authoritarian guy" or more of a "OC rights guy"? As for the last election, just more proof of what I just said.

    Einstein was defining "insanity." I know about Einstein's definition of insanity, I just found it impossible to actually ask him. For those who might not know.........Albert Einstein once said “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. I agree, that is a very scary thought.
    Read some of Mark's posts, and you will see that he is most definitely an anti-authoritarian guy. Open Carry is only one of his platforms.

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    When it comes to OC versus CC, the "division" is almost exclusively one-directional: CC advocates opposed to OC. You almost never see OC advocates attack CC (as opposed to attacking the need for a license).

    Why is it this way? Fear. Those who rely on government permission to exercise their rights, are terribly afraid government will revoke that permission. They're right to be afraid, because government is arbitrary and vindictive by its very nature. The problem is not their concern, it's that they lash out at their natural allies, instead of those who are actually a threat.

    Gun forums other than this one tend to be full of worriers and hand-wringers complaining about how OC will "ruin it for the rest of us".



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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Oh no, this site has more than it's share of CC'ers who ARE afraid OC'ers are going to jeopardize their permission slips.
    If that were to occur, they'd either have to man up and OC are not carry at all, and THAT is what frightens them.
    There may be those, but I am not one of them, though I do have a permit in Nevada. I would prefer it to not be required, but have it to enable the choice. Either CC or OC as the situation dictates. To me, each method of exercise has its plus and minus points.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    KBCraig wrote:
    When it comes to OC versus CC, the "division" is almost exclusively one-directional: CC advocates opposed to OC. You almost never see OC advocates attack CC (as opposed to attacking the need for a license).

    Why is it this way? Fear. Those who rely on government permission to exercise their rights, are terribly afraid government will revoke that permission. They're right to be afraid, because government is arbitrary and vindictive by its very nature. The problem is not their concern, it's that they lash out at their natural allies, instead of those who are actually a threat.

    Gun forums other than this one tend to be full of worriers and hand-wringers complaining about how OC will "ruin it for the rest of us".

    How can you OC in Texas? If not, how are you going about affecting change there?

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    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Oh no, this site has more than it's share of CC'ers who ARE afraid OC'ers are going to jeopardize their permission slips.
    If that were to occur, they'd either have to man up and OC are not carry at all, and THAT is what frightens them.
    I think that is a valid point. More later, I gotta run......storm coming

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    prodefense wrote:
    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Oh no, this site has more than it's share of CC'ers who ARE afraid OC'ers are going to jeopardize their permission slips.
    If that were to occur, they'd either have to man up and OC are not carry at all, and THAT is what frightens them.
    I think that is a valid point. More later, I gotta run......storm coming
    mark,

    the ones who voice what you are describing are not fearful that OC people will jeapordize CC rights. Most think OC is a right and it is your choice to exercise it.

    What many on here fear, and the likes of MEM and the other anti-establishment folks do not seem to inderstand or want to admit, is that the MANNER IN WHICH PEOPLE AGRESSIVELY AND POLITICALLY OC, creates a negative public image about OC and lends credence to those who believe people with guns are just "Gun Nuts".

    Everytime an OC'er (or CC'er for that matter, though it is almost non existent) gets into a confrontation with a store manger, LEO, door greeter at Wal-Mart, Bass Pro SHop, etc. even if it is unjustified, it creates a bad image and poor public opinion.

    Am I suggesting you should not OC because it ruffles feathers, of course not. I am pleading for people who post their antics on here to stop being asses when they encounter resistance from those ignorant of fact wether they be LEO, store management, or the buggie boy. Be overtly pleasant instead of trying to make them look and feel foolish.

    Even if you have to concede just a little, maybe you will turn one negative opinion into a positive one. However, some here feel they need to force feed their political agenda to people. My experience has taught me no matter how noble or righteous your cause, no one wants to be force fed things. Trying to "school" everyone you meet may not be the best technique.

    Creating scenes in public places does nothing but further instill fear in those who do not know better. Maybe leaving, taking your business elsewhere, and coming back later without your weapon with some literature and saying,

    "Here, when we met earlier, I think you may have been a little misinformed on the rights and laws governing people's right to carry weapons. Also, here are some staistics about how guns save lives. Thank you for your time"

    Will most just throw it away? Sure. But are you not doing something positive for gun owners everywhere instead of creating a disturbance and telling people things like they need to learn their job, you need to read article 1 section 11, and confrontational things like that?


    More flys with sugar instead of vinegar...that is if your real intention is to educate the masses as some on here claim to be.

    Accept the fact that some people, just don't care about guns. let them live their lives, but do not make them someone who hates guns because their only interaction was some asshat they met at work who wanted to carry in their store.



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    smokingmem wrote:
    prodefense wrote:
    mark edward marchiafava wrote:
    Oh no, this site has more than it's share of CC'ers who ARE afraid OC'ers are going to jeopardize their permission slips.
    If that were to occur, they'd either have to man up and OC are not carry at all, and THAT is what frightens them.
    I think that is a valid point. More later, I gotta run......storm coming
    mark,

    the ones who voice what you are describing are not fearful that OC people will jeapordize CC rights. Most think OC is a right and it is your choice to exercise it.

    What many on here fear, and the likes of MEM and the other anti-establishment folks do not seem to inderstand or want to admit, is that the MANNER IN WHICH PEOPLE AGRESSIVELY AND POLITICALLY OC, creates a negative public image about OC and lends credence to those who believe people with guns are just "Gun Nuts".

    Everytime an OC'er (or CC'er for that matter, though it is almost non existent) gets into a confrontation with a store manger, LEO, door greeter at Wal-Mart, Bass Pro SHop, etc. even if it is unjustified, it creates a bad image and poor public opinion.

    Am I suggesting you should not OC because it ruffles feathers, of course not. I am pleading for people who post their antics on here to stop being asses when they encounter resistance from those ignorant of fact wether they be LEO, store management, or the buggie boy. Be overtly pleasant instead of trying to make them look and feel foolish.

    Even if you have to concede just a little, maybe you will turn one negative opinion into a positive one. However, some here feel they need to force feed their political agenda to people. My experience has taught me no matter how noble or righteous your cause, no one wants to be force fed things. Trying to "school" everyone you meet may not be the best technique.

    Creating scenes in public places does nothing but further instill fear in those who do not know better. Maybe leaving, taking your business elsewhere, and coming back later without your weapon with some literature and saying,

    "Here, when we met earlier, I think you may have been a little misinformed on the rights and laws governing people's right to carry weapons. Also, here are some staistics about how guns save lives. Thank you for your time"

    Will most just throw it away? Sure. But are you not doing something positive for gun owners everywhere instead of creating a disturbance and telling people things like they need to learn their job, you need to read article 1 section 11, and confrontational things like that?


    More flys with sugar instead of vinegar...that is if your real intention is to educate the masses as some on here claim to be.

    Accept the fact that some people, just don't care about guns. let them live their lives, but do not make them someone who hates guns because their only interaction was some asshat they met at work who wanted to carry in their store.


    Absolutely! Well said!! My point exactly. You do NOTHING for a cause when you act as a poor representative of that cause. You certainly aren't going to win any support.

    I've said it before, you honestly think you're going to change an ant-gun guy's mind by making a fool of yourself in public? You think that anti-guy is going to look over and say to himself "Aww...look at that poor guy carrying a gun getting bullied around"? More likely the truth lies closer to instilling that gun toting wacko image he already has of us and exactly how is that supposed to help us?

    .Again, it's my belief that we should be ambassadors to our cause and our rights. Not bad examples.

    There really is no logical intelligent argument otherwise in this case.


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    JeepSeller wrote:
    There really is no logical intelligent argument otherwise in this case.
    Oh, well, since you declare it so, it must be QED, right?

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    marshaul wrote:
    JeepSeller wrote:
    There really is no logical intelligent argument otherwise in this case.
    Oh, well, since you declare it so, it must be QED, right?
    No, but because you say it is not, then it isn't? What makes your opinon any more valid than anyone else's. What is your training, education, background, life experience? From what base of knowledge do you speak?

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    smokingmem wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    JeepSeller wrote:
    There really is no logical intelligent argument otherwise in this case.
    Oh, well, since you declare it so, it must be QED, right?
    No, but because you say it is not, then it isn't? What makes your opinon any more valid than anyone else's. What is your training, education, background, life experience? From what base of knowledge do you speak?
    I didn't make an argument or state an opinion.

    FWIW, I agree about being good ambassadors. I disagree with the implication that standing up for your rights can ever equate to "bad ambassadorship".

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    marshaul wrote:
    smokingmem wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    JeepSeller wrote:
    There really is no logical intelligent argument otherwise in this case.
    Oh, well, since you declare it so, it must be QED, right?
    No, but because you say it is not, then it isn't? What makes your opinon any more valid than anyone else's. What is your training, education, background, life experience? From what base of knowledge do you speak?
    I didn't make an argument or state an opinion.

    FWIW, I agree about being good ambassadors. I disagree with the implication that standing up for your rights can ever equate to "bad ambassadorship".


    MODS. PLEASE DO NOT DELETE........



    So are you saying the ends justifies the means?

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    If the means consist of "standing up for your rights", then certainly.

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    marshaul wrote:
    If the means consist of "standing up for your rights", then certainly.
    So it is OK to beat people, lie, steal, whatever you want to do, trample others rights, as long as you are standing up for yours?

    Come on, even you cannot be that naive...or deliberately ignorant?

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    smokingmem wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    If the means consist of "standing up for your rights", then certainly.
    So it is OK to beat people, lie, steal, whatever you want to do, trample others rights, as long as you are standing up for yours?

    Come on, even you cannot be that naive...or deliberately ignorant?
    Straw man, red herring, ad hominem. Any more for me?

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    marshaul wrote:
    smokingmem wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    JeepSeller wrote:
    There really is no logical intelligent argument otherwise in this case.
    Oh, well, since you declare it so, it must be QED, right?
    No, but because you say it is not, then it isn't? What makes your opinon any more valid than anyone else's. What is your training, education, background, life experience? From what base of knowledge do you speak?
    I didn't make an argument or state an opinion.

    FWIW, I agree about being good ambassadors. I disagree with the implication that standing up for your rights can ever equate to "bad ambassadorship".
    This troll is trying to divide and conquer by positing a new category of OC: "Really OC'ing."

    OC is OC. Enough. Trying to cleave OC is nonsense. This troll is trying to manufacture a debate in order to allow him to stay around and to turn OC'ers against one another, all in the furtherance of somehow trying to prove Mark is at fault for OC'ing.

    Banned once is enough. We shouldn't have to endure this.

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    I'd say it's OK to beat people that are trying to trample your rights, heck yes. Come on, I'm sure at one time or another we've ALL felt some of them politicians could use a good beating.


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    marshaul wrote:
    smokingmem wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    If the means consist of "standing up for your rights", then certainly.
    So it is OK to beat people, lie, steal, whatever you want to do, trample others rights, as long as you are standing up for yours?

    Come on, even you cannot be that naive...or deliberately ignorant?
    Straw man, red herring, ad hominem. Any more for me?
    ad bannitatum works for me.

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    Oscarr wrote:
    I'd say it's OK to beat people that are trying to trample your rights, heck yes. Come on, I'm sure at one time or another we've ALL felt some of them politicians could use a good beating.
    LOL. i mean in reality. Is it Ok to sacrifice someone else' rights to further or secure your own? Isn't that what our BOR and COnstitution was based on, that we should be free to do what we want as long as it does not interfere with someone else's freedom to do what they want? (loosely)

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    smokingmem wrote:
    Oscarr wrote:
    I'd say it's OK to beat people that are trying to trample your rights, heck yes. Come on, I'm sure at one time or another we've ALL felt some of them politicians could use a good beating.
    LOL. i mean in reality. Is it Ok to sacrifice someone else' rights to further or secure your own? Isn't that what our BOR and COnstitution was based on, that we should be free to do what we want as long as it does not interfere with someone else's freedom to do what they want? (loosely)
    OK, let's keep the eye on the ball. Your whole purpose here is to challenge "MEM". Hence your user name.

    So, rather than continuing your straw man argument, perhaps you can show whose rights were violated by Mark's OCing, or lawsuit?

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