Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: Vacationing in W. Virginia

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    625

    Post imported post

    I know WV honors my CPL, but I am not clear on the OC. It sounds as if I may OC but where and where not seem to be mixed. Please help I will be here for 4-5 days and would like to OC.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    89

    Post imported post

    conservative85 wrote:
    I know WV honors my CPL, but I am not clear on the OC. It sounds as if I may OC but where and where not seem to be mixed. Please help I will be here for 4-5 days and would like to OC.

    There are currently OC restrictions in Charleston, Dunbar, and South Charleston. Dunbar and South Charleston are suburbs of Charleston.

    The city of Martinsburg also has a "no carry" restriction on all city owned buildings.

    Otherwise there are no restrictions on open carry. With the possible exception of carrying in a car.

    There are two statutes in place which prohibit ANY transport of a loaded firearm in a vehicle except with a valid CHL while the firearm is concealed. Bolded sections are mine.

    §20-2-5. Unlawful methods of hunting and fishing and other unlawful acts.

    Except as authorized by the director, it is unlawful at any time for any person to:

    (9) Have in his or her possession a crossbow with a nocked bolt, a loaded firearm or a firearm from the magazine of which all shells and cartridges have not been removed, in or on any vehicle or conveyance, or its attachments, within the state, except as may otherwise be provided by law or regulation. Except as hereinafter provided, between five o'clock postmeridian of one day and seven o'clock antemeridian, eastern standard time of the day following, any unloaded firearm or crossbow, being lawfully carried in accordance with the foregoing provisions, shall be so carried only when in a case or taken apart and securely wrapped. During the period from the first day of July to the thirtieth day of September, inclusive, of each year, the foregoing requirements relative to carrying certain unloaded firearms are permissible only from eight-thirty o'clock postmeridian to five o'clock antemeridian, eastern standard time: Provided, That the time periods for carrying unloaded and uncased firearms are extended for one hour after the postmeridian times and one hour before the antemeridian times established above if a hunter is preparing to or in the process of transporting or transferring the firearms to or from a hunting site, campsite, home or other place of abode;

    §20-2-6a. Carrying a concealed handgun.
    (a) Notwithstanding any provision of this code to the contrary, a person licensed to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to the provisions of section four, article seven, chapter sixty-one of this code who is not prohibited at the time from possessing a firearm pursuant to the provisions of section seven, article seven, chapter sixty-one of this code or by any applicable federal law may carry a handgun in a concealed manner for self defense purposes while afield hunting, hiking, camping or in or on a motor vehicle.
    Granted these are in the Natural Rescources section of the WV Code which deals with hunting, fishing and trapping. However there is case law to back up the no loaded firearms in a vehicle, Here is the relevant case. This too focuses more on the hunting aspect, but several passages lean toward a more general prohibition of carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle. These passages specifically:

    The State has a legitimate police power interest in protecting its citizens from the dangers of transporting loaded firearms. Prohibiting the vehicular transportation of loaded firearms is the only manner in which citizens can be protected from the potential discharge of loaded firearms in vehicles.
    As noted above, the only manner in which to protect individuals from the accidental discharge of loaded firearms transported in vehicles is to require all such weapons to be unloaded. Thus, we hold that the provisions of W. Va. Code 20-2-5(10) prohibiting the vehicular transportation of a loaded firearm do not violate the right to keep and bear arms for lawful hunting purposes enunciated in W. Va. Constitution Article III, Section 22.
    The National Rifle Association of America [NRA] recognizes the dangers involved in transporting a loaded firearm in a vehicle and specifically recommends against this practice. See, e.g., NRA Hunter Services Division, National Rifle Association of America, Firearm Safety and the Hunter (n.d.) (cautioning "[w]hen a gun is being carried in a vehicle . . . follow these rules of safe gun handling: e sure the gun is unloaded"; also advising hunters to "[a]lways unload your gun before entering your vehicle").

    Unless you are interested in being the test case which answers the question of open carrying a loaded firearm in a vehicle I would advise against open carrying in a vehicle. Since you have your carry permit the simplest solution would be to pull your shirt over your gun while you are driving and uncover when you exit your vehicle.

    While I don't suggest doing this, it would be completely possible to open carry while you are driving and if you are pulled over simply slip your shirt over your gun before he reaches your car.

    If I ever win the lottery and have more money than I can spend, then perhaps I'll be willing to be the test case. But as long as I have to work for a living I think I'll just cover it up until we can get the law fixed.



  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    625

    Post imported post

    thanks for the info.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    40

    Post imported post

    Open carry in a vehicle is legal in WV. Please refer to the State Police Website FAQ.

    Q. Is it lawful to carry weapons (e.g. rifles, shotguns, and pistols) in my vehicle when I travel in West Virginia?
    A. Individuals who possess a valid concealed carry permit may carry a concealed handgun in a motor vehicle for purpose of self defense only. West Virginia permits anyone who can lawfully possess a handgun to carry an unconcealed handgun. If you choose to carry an unconcealed handgun in your vehicle and are stopped by a law-enforcement officer, you must understand that that the weapon will immediately attract the attention of the police officer. The presence of the weapon may lead to action by the officer to ensure his or her safety such as the drawing of his or her weapon, ordering you from the vehicle, and/or performing a pat-down search. Weapons intended for hunting must be unloaded and in a case when transported in a vehicle. It is strongly recommended that, if you do not have a valid concealed carry permit, while traveling in a vehicle, that all firearms be unloaded and cased in a location in the vehicle that is not readily accessible to any of the occupants. Any ammunition should be stored in a separate location from the firearm.

    This is fact.

    Now some grey areas and my opinion. If you are stopped by DNR and your handgun has a long barrel and or a scope then you will have to explain to DNR how that firearm is intended for the "purpose of self defense only" and not shooting deer from your vehicle. My opinion...don't carry a handgun that may be interpreted as to be used for hunting.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    89

    Post imported post

    Maverick wrote:
    Open carry in a vehicle is legal in WV. Please refer to the State Police Website FAQ.

    Q. Is it lawful to carry weapons (e.g. rifles, shotguns, and pistols) in my vehicle when I travel in West Virginia?
    A. Individuals who possess a valid concealed carry permit may carry a concealed handgun in a motor vehicle for purpose of self defense only. West Virginia permits anyone who can lawfully possess a handgun to carry an unconcealed handgun. If you choose to carry an unconcealed handgun in your vehicle and are stopped by a law-enforcement officer, you must understand that that the weapon will immediately attract the attention of the police officer. The presence of the weapon may lead to action by the officer to ensure his or her safety such as the drawing of his or her weapon, ordering you from the vehicle, and/or performing a pat-down search. Weapons intended for hunting must be unloaded and in a case when transported in a vehicle. It is strongly recommended that, if you do not have a valid concealed carry permit, while traveling in a vehicle, that all firearms be unloaded and cased in a location in the vehicle that is not readily accessible to any of the occupants. Any ammunition should be stored in a separate location from the firearm.

    This is fact.

    Now some grey areas and my opinion. If you are stopped by DNR and your handgun has a long barrel and or a scope then you will have to explain to DNR how that firearm is intended for the "purpose of self defense only" and not shooting deer from your vehicle. My opinion...don't carry a handgun that may be interpreted as to be used for hunting.
    My same response from a different thread on the same general topic:

    The contention is whether statutes contained in 20-2-5 & 6a apply only when hunting or not. The way the statue reads it is an unlawful act to carry a loaded gun unless you posses a concealed carry license and the gun is carried in a concealed manner. It is spelled out very clearly, from my point of view. Specifically "may carry a handgun in a concealed manner for self defense purposes while afield hunting, hiking, camping or in or on a motor vehicle...." lists 4 things that you may not do while carrying a firearm openly. It doesn't say "While hunting from while in or on a motor vehicle" it says specifically "in or on a motor vehicle". Nor does it give limitations such as "within state game lands, parks or hunting, hiking or camping areas".

    To my understanding the police are not limited in which areas of the law they may enforce. Nowhere, to my knowledge, does it say Sheriff Deputies may not enforce laws pertaining to Natural Resources. Therefore it is reasonable to conclude that since a) the prohibition of openly carrying a loaded firearm in or on a motor vehicle is specifically spelled out and backed by case law interpreting the statute and b) that the police may enforce all illegal activities, regardless of their location in the state code, one may not openly carry a loaded firearm in or on a motor vehicle. Also the only lawful manner of carrying a loaded firearm in or on a motor vehicle is for that firearm to be concealed and the carrier to be in possession of a Concealed Handgun License.

    A FAQ on the state police website, in my opinion, does not trump established law. While it may be the case that a Trooper, Deputy or Officer may not choose to apply 20-2-5 & 6a if he sees a person openly carrying in or on a motor vehicle, it does not mean the officer cannot.

    What I would love to find is a case where Joe Smith was driving down Rt.9, was pulled over for a traffic violation, was also cited for openly carrying without a CHL and an eventual court dismissed the charge and clarified the existing statute on whether 20-2-5 & 6a applies to someone going about their daily business and not hunting, hiking, camping or in/on a motor vehicle.

    I've yet to find such a case.


  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    40

    Post imported post

    I personally have never seen local or state police enforce DNR regs without assistance from DNR.

    If 'Joe Smith' was pulled over for a traffic citation and had an unconcealed handgun and was 'harrassed' by the police I would think he would have a strong case, especially since you could simply refer them to common information quoted by the State Police. I agree with you that there, according to case law,seems to be a general contradiction between DNR regs and what is posted by the state police. In my area they seem to be on two different pages. Local and state police do not mess with DNR related issues without immediate assistance from DNR and vice versa. Again this is why i believe the distinction is made between 'hunting' and 'self defense purposes'. I personally have carried openly in my car for over 15 years, of course I have been pulled over less than a handful of times and my openly carried firearm was never noticed, nor did I volunteer that I had a firearm, nor did they ask.

    HOWEVER, all of this whether case law or not can go out the window and turn into a he said/she said situation if you get the wrong officer.

    I was actually pulled over awhile back going through a light that had turned yellow but not red yet. The officer said when you went through that red light.....I said whoa, whoa, you mean yellow light. Then he says well it turned red after you went through it.:shock: Needless to say he was just 'looking' for a reason to pull people over.

  7. #7
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    625

    Post imported post

    "If 'Joe Smith' was pulled over for a traffic citation and had an unconcealed handgun"


    The funny thing bout this Quote is that in Michigan a fire arm in a car is automatically considered concealed. We can have our fire arms on the dash, in the glove box, or on our hip. Just a side note on the answer to my question, thanks for all your help, W. Virginia is a very nice state. I am looking to move there in 6-7 years.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Fayetteville, West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2

    Post imported post

    Maverick wrote:
    I personally have never seen local or state police enforce DNR regs without assistance from DNR.

    If 'Joe Smith' was pulled over for a traffic citation and had an unconcealed handgun and was 'harrassed' by the police I would think he would have a strong case, especially since you could simply refer them to common information quoted by the State Police. I agree with you that there, according to case law,seems to be a general contradiction between DNR regs and what is posted by the state police. In my area they seem to be on two different pages. Local and state police do not mess with DNR related issues without immediate assistance from DNR and vice versa. Again this is why i believe the distinction is made between 'hunting' and 'self defense purposes'. I personally have carried openly in my car for over 15 years, of course I have been pulled over less than a handful of times and my openly carried firearm was never noticed, nor did I volunteer that I had a firearm, nor did they ask.

    HOWEVER, all of this whether case law or not can go out the window and turn into a he said/she said situation if you get the wrong officer.

    I was actually pulled over awhile back going through a light that had turned yellow but not red yet. The officer said when you went through that red light.....I said whoa, whoa, you mean yellow light. Then he says well it turned red after you went through it.:shock: Needless to say he was just 'looking' for a reason to pull people over.
    From my experiences around Beckley I would have to agree with you. I open carry many times while riding the bike into town and have never had a issue with either the city police or sheriff department. My 1911 IS VERY visible and many a LEO in their patrol car has seen it and not even given it a second glance.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kittanning, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    196

    Post imported post

    i was just talking to the state police of WV and the sheriff. as long as your state is in reciprocating agreement with WV. like pa is this wv, and you have a LTCP permit then you can carry a weapon on your person in a car loaded with no problem. that is WV law. and open carry in legal in WV with the acceptionss of charelston and Dunbar . in them 2 city's that you can not open carry because it is not permitted.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    40

    Post imported post

    Well..

    That's a given you can carry loaded in your car with a permit. The question was can you carry loaded in your car without a permit since WV allows anyone to openly carry without a permit.

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kittanning, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    196

    Post imported post

    no i talked to the state police there. if you do do have a permit you are not allowed to carry a weapon loaded in a car. and i am talking about a pistol.

  12. #12
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    40

    Post imported post

    OK,

    The response they gave you however contradicts the information given on their website which i posted in the above thread. I would have asked them to explain that one. Not only that, but what you stated they told youis the opposite of what I was told by astate police officer in my area. This is why it was mentioned above to research the law for yourself and not rely on what the po po tells you.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kittanning, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    196

    Post imported post

    i did and wv law states that if you have a weapon in the car. transporting it. you have to have a permit. because in a car its considered concealed. you need a permit to conceal a weapon. as long as you have a permit you are well with in your right to have it in your car loaded and by your side. there is nothing any police office can do about it. that permit is your life line. if a cop tell you any different then tell him you want a sr office to respond because clearly he doesn't have a clue.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kittanning, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    196

    Post imported post

    Maverick wrote:
    Open carry in a vehicle is legal in WV. Please refer to the State Police Website FAQ.

    Q. Is it lawful to carry weapons (e.g. rifles, shotguns, and pistols) in my vehicle when I travel in West Virginia?
    A. Individuals who possess a valid concealed carry permit may carry a concealed handgun in a motor vehicle for purpose of self defense only. West Virginia permits anyone who can lawfully possess a handgun to carry an unconcealed handgun. If you choose to carry an unconcealed handgun in your vehicle and are stopped by a law-enforcement officer, you must understand that that the weapon will immediately attract the attention of the police officer. The presence of the weapon may lead to action by the officer to ensure his or her safety such as the drawing of his or her weapon, ordering you from the vehicle, and/or performing a pat-down search. Weapons intended for hunting must be unloaded and in a case when transported in a vehicle. It is strongly recommended that, if you do not have a valid concealed carry permit, while traveling in a vehicle, that all firearms be unloaded and cased in a location in the vehicle that is not readily accessible to any of the occupants. Any ammunition should be stored in a separate location from the firearm.

    This is fact.

    Now some grey areas and my opinion. If you are stopped by DNR and your handgun has a long barrel and or a scope then you will have to explain to DNR how that firearm is intended for the "purpose of self defense only" and not shooting deer from your vehicle. My opinion...don't carry a handgun that may be interpreted as to be used for hunting.



    right here is the answer . as long as you have a permit . and if you are from out of state make sure wv has a reciprocating agreement with the state that issued your permit. you are legal to have a weapon in your car loaded and it is legal

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    40

    Post imported post

    I have yet to find any WV case law that specifically bans open loaded firearms in a vehicle. Unless you are referring to the Natural Resources section.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    kittanning, Pennsylvania, USA
    Posts
    196

    Post imported post

    you need a permit to have a loaded weapon in a car. open or concealed. you can not transport a pistol in a car with out a permit. its call a LTCP or carriers permit in pa. im not sure but i think that's like that every where. with out a permit you shouldn't have a pistol in you car.


    trust me if you don't have a permit good for wv. then don't have your pistol in your car

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Fayetteville, West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2

    Post imported post

    Spencer,

    You must have a CCW IF you conceal carry while driving. However I have spoken with the local LEO's who have said that you can open carry i.e place the pistol in plain view in the vehicle without need of a CCW. Currently the law is being looked at because of the confusion in the language in the current law. As I have said, I open carry while riding the bike and have no issues at all.



    Regards,

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    40

    Post imported post

    Exactly, you only need to have a permit if you CONCEAL your weapon. This includes in a vehicle. If someone has information OTHER than what is listed under the Natural Resources that says otherwise then please post it.


  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Martinsburg, West Virginia, USA
    Posts
    89

    Post imported post

    spencer280 wrote:
    i did and wv law states that if you have a weapon in the car. transporting it. you have to have a permit. because in a car its considered concealed. you need a permit to conceal a weapon. as long as you have a permit you are well with in your right to have it in your car loaded and by your side. there is nothing any police office can do about it. that permit is your life line. if a cop tell you any different then tell him you want a sr office to respond because clearly he doesn't have a clue.
    The bolded section is not correct.

    §61-7-2. Definitions.

    (10) "Concealed" means hidden from ordinary observation so as to prevent disclosure or recognition. A deadly weapon is concealed when it is carried on or about the person in such a manner that another person in the ordinary course of events would not be placed on notice that the deadly weapon was being carried.

    Simply having a handgun in your car does not mean you are trying to keep it hidden from ordinary observation so as to prevent disclosure or recognition. Whether it is on the seat, dash (hugely irresposible behavior IMO) or on your hip, it is not hidden from ordinary observation.

    spencer280 wrote:
    you need a permit to have a loaded weapon in a car. open or concealed. you can not transport a pistol in a car with out a permit. its call a LTCP or carriers permit in pa. im not sure but i think that's like that every where. with out a permit you shouldn't have a pistol in you car.


    trust me if you don't have a permit good for wv. then don't have your pistol in your car
    In PA it is called a License to Carry Firearms (LTCF). It is required to conceal carry, open carry in Cities of the First Class (philideplhia), carry in a vehicle (with a few very limited exceptions) and to carry during a declared state of emergency.

    You might want to go to www.pafoa.org. It is an excellent resourse for all things gun related in PA.


    The problem is that our code is unclear and at times contradictory. Fortunately WVCDL.org exists to fix those, and other problems. Hopefully in the next legislative session we will be able to make additionial gains.

    Until then I can't in good concience say open carry in a vehicle is ok when I have serious doubts about its legality. I try to just put information out and let the individual do what they feel comfortable with, but I can't just say "Yep, its OK, go ahead."

    With perserverance, one day I might be able to.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •