To draw or not to draw

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jarhead1055 wrote:

So this morning i was in spanaway waiting for my group of fellow motorcylist to show up for the run today and at walmart i see a man running for all he had with a big bag of stuff he clearly stole and i figured this out due to the 2 employee's chasing him through the parking lot.

 

So my question is this. would i have been in the right to draw on him and hold him till LEO got there?

 

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You're putting yourself in jeopardy of an arrest if you draw in that situation. Even attempting to detain what looks like (or is) a fleeing criminal could result in unlawful detention charges against you if you do something wrong.

I don't know about everyone else on the boards, but I carry to defend my life and the lives of people around me, not to protect Wal-Mart's profit margins. I would not attempt a "citizen's arrest" in this state unless I knew the law by rote about it and even then I'd be hesitant, unless I was the victim.

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I got to say I am holding hands with 911 on this. Right or wrong. I do not look for trouble, but I am to old for the beating.

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I am 56 with heart issues a bad knee and a hernia.I can't physically go hand to hand with a someone.I may be tempted to draw in my case I would be threatened.I started to unholster my weapon on a bus one time.This great big guy totally jacked on crack ,yelling at everyone,took a swing at one passenger.Then he started after ayoung girl in front.The driver told him to get off, he refused and threatened the driver UNTIL he saw me unsnap my weapon.He left rapidly.I didin't pull it all the way out but he saw me unsnapthe retention and had my hand on it.At that time it crossed my mind that I wasn't going to shoot an unarmed man in this situation.However if he would have continued his attack toward the driver I was going to whack him upside the head with it.Fortunately he got off and did not decide to esculate at that point.

I saw a similar incident as Jarhead at the Safeway where I have my coffee everymorning.2 store detectives chasing a shoplifter headed toward me.The shoplifter was unarmed so it didn't cross my mind to draw.Get a description at that point to provide to cops .This guy was caught though.Those kids chasing him were fast..

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DEROS72 wrote:

I am 56 with heart issues a bad knee and a hernia.I can't physically go hand to hand with a someone.I may be tempted to draw in my case I would be threatened.I started to unholster my weapon on a bus one time.This great big guy totally jacked on crack ,yelling at everyone,took a swing at one passenger.Then he started after ayoung girl in front.The driver told him to get off, he refused and threatened the driver UNTIL he saw me unsnap my weapon.He left rapidly.I didin't pull it all the way out but he saw me unsnapthe retention and had my hand on it.At that time it crossed my mind that I wasn't going to shoot an unarmed man in this situation.However if he would have continued his attack toward the driver I was going to whack him upside the head with it.Fortunately he got off and did not decide to esculate at that point.

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I remember reading that earlier. Did you or the driver call LE after the incident?

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marshaul wrote:

911Boss wrote:

One punch, the guy went down struck his head on the concrete, went into a coma and died the next day.

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Impossible, unless this man was living in Fear. The Unafraid know how to roll with the punches, and know no fear.

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Clearly possible, and even possible for someone not hitting the concrete.

I have 3 herniated disks in my neck. A good solid blow to the head could conceivably exert enough force to my neck to bruise, or even sever my spinal cord. Could result in paralysis or even death.

Someone attempting to "beat me up" = in reasonable fear for my life = I will defend my life.

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Things I have learned:

A: Property crimes are NOT crimes where you can draw.

B: A life, yours or another's must be in in question of harm or demise, or fear for your life or the life of another to draw and use deadly force.

Now that being said. Size and physical limitations do come into play. (Look up the Seattle downtown Mall Shooting a few years back with the older gentleman, who was attacked and beaten and defended himself with deadly force.) Sorry can't think of the specifics of the incident.

C: If someone is trying to take your gun out of your holster during a scuffle, the only logical explanation is that they intend to use it. IN MY OPINION, I would feel justified in defending myself with deadly force if someone was forciblly trying to remove my firearm from me during a hostile encounter. There is a reason why I have a knife on my left side.

Talk to a Law Enforcement officer about what their training says about gun grabs.

Property crimes DO NOT justify drawing UNLESS someone's life is in danger PERIOD. It is even one of the questions in the Washington State Armed Guard/PI License Test

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I've often wondered when it's justifiable to draw your weapon on someone. I know the law states when homicide is considered justifiable, but I don't recall reading when it's justifiable to draw your firearm.

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"Use of force continuum" or something like that. Goes from verbal requests-verbal commands-displaying weapon-threatening-non lethal force-lethal force. I'm sure there's a couple more here and there, but it's basically like that.
Also the "lesser included offense," but that isn't universal. Accidental discharge that kills someone is non-criminal homicide, but accidental discharge by itself is a crime in many WA cities.

I would vote no on the draw. Not a threat to you or others. You can't presume a shoplifter is armed just because he's committing a misdemeanor.
Store employees are allowed to use "reasonable force" as per RCW to detain a shoplifter if there is probable cause, not just RAS. Since you're not an employee, nor do you have PC, it's kind of a stretch, but I doubt they would have pressed charges about as much as I doubt you would have stuck around once the store guys got him.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

So this morning i was in spanaway waiting for my group of fellow motorcylist to show up for the run today and at walmart i see a man running for all he had with a big bag of stuff he clearly stole and i figured this out due to the 2 employee's chasing him through the parking lot.



So my question is this. would i have been in the right to draw on him and hold him till LEO got there?

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if it does not concern you, and someone isn't being violently beaten or otherwise in risk of death or injury--why would you want to interfere? Walmart has "security"--let them deal with it...remember--if you think they would appreciate it if you got hurt for them--they wouldn't. They don't care.

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marshaul wrote:

911Boss wrote:

One punch, the guy went down struck his head on the concrete, went into a coma and died the next day.

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Impossible, unless this man was living in Fear. The Unafraid know how to roll with the punches, and know no fear.

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it is extremely possible.

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RCW 9A.16.050Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

I believe certain times of property crime could fall under both of these. If someone breaks into your garage and tries to steal your car, this would fall under a "Justifiable Homicide" because breaking and entering is a felony.

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triehl27 wrote:

Things I have learned:

A: Property crimes are NOT crimes where you can draw.

B: A life, yours or another's must be in in question of harm or demise, or fear for your life or the life of another to draw and use deadly force.





Property crimes DO NOT justify drawing UNLESS someone's life is in danger PERIOD. It is even one of the questions in the Washington State Armed Guard/PI License Test

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A: False - http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
...
(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

B: False - http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.020

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:
(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

and

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.050
Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

Also:

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.16.110
(1) No person in the state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting by any reasonable means necessary, himself or herself, his or her family, or his or her real or personal property, or for coming to the aid of another who is in imminent danger of or the victim of assault, robbery, kidnapping, arson, burglary, rape, murder, or any other violent crime as defined in RCW 9.94A.030.



Felonies are the exception. Small crime, true, but if someone's stealing your car, $5000 worth of property, or committing any other felony in your presence, you have the legal right to draw upon them to restrain them until they can be delivered to officers. Should that fail, it is an affirmative defense that the above give reason to fire. The burden for a self defense claim as such is "beyond the preponderance of the evidence".

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RCW 9.41.270Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

(2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

(a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

(b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

(d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

(e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.


Notice (d) states "a lawful arrest for the commission of a *felony*" I don't think shoplifting is a felony. Now, if this man just committed an armed robbery of a store and fled the scene, then you'd be justified to draw your weapon and possibly more.

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Tawnos beat me to it

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Yeah, I vote no draw. Shoplifting isn't a felony and a guy running away from me isn't too much of a threat.

I do vote for join the chase though. I worked LP way back in high school and it is always a good time chasing punks through the parking lot.