To draw or not to draw

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So this morning i was in spanaway waiting for my group of fellow motorcylist to show up for the run today and at walmart i see a man running for all he had with a big bag of stuff he clearly stole and i figured this out due to the 2 employee's chasing him through the parking lot.



So my question is this. would i have been in the right to draw on him and hold him till LEO got there?

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I think you can not draw in this situation but I could be wrong

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I think Manu is right. But if youre fast, I'd say join in the chase. Lets say you chase but the LP guys catch him. Maybe he has a weapon. Well, if you catch up you just might cover one of those LP guys. Who knows? But if that guy threatens you / draws his own weapon, drawing would be justified.

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You do not wear a cape.

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But he wears a cowboy hat.

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jarhead1055 wrote:

So this morning i was in spanaway waiting for my group of fellow motorcylist to show up for the run today and at walmart i see a man running for all he had with a big bag of stuff he clearly stole and i figured this out due to the 2 employee's chasing him through the parking lot.



So my question is this. would i have been in the right to draw on him and hold him till LEO got there?

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Follow him on motorcycle and throw a stick between his legs! >.>

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Of course not.

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is your life in danger? then no.

you never want to go to jail on the weekend.

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I've often wondered when it's justifiable to draw your weapon on someone. I know the law states when homicide is considered justifiable, but I don't recall reading when it's justifiable to draw your firearm.

Is it strictly when you're legitimately concerned for the well being of yourself or others in your presence?

For example, if you're out getting gas late at night, and you're in your car, you see a suspicious looking man walking toward you with a fast and somewhat aggressive pace. You don't know what this man is going to do, but he's getting uncomfortably close, and you don't even have your keys in the ignition yet. You draw your firearm on the man and tell him not to come any closer, because you feared he may have been trying to car jack you.

It turns out the man was just asking for directions.

When is it justifiable to draw your weapon? You were legitimately concerned for your safety, but the man meant no harm. How would the law view this?

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I had the walmart greeter running after me accusing me of stealing something because I refused to show my reciept...

Her and two other people were running after me, yelling at me to stop, exclaiming 'stop him! he's stealing!'...

I calmly walked to my car, put my stuff in it, and just ignored the 3 people now around my car demanding to prove I paid for my stuff..

Would you pull your gun out on me because I was being chased by 3 people yelling that I stole stuff?

How do you think I would react when I see some guy unholster and level a gun at me?

It's gonna get real ugly real quick...

Remember one thing. Liability.

unless you're 105% sure that you're 110% in the right, let it go.

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Just last night I saw some guy by a car in my parking lot who looked like he was up to no good I went to check it out and the guy had just slashed one of the tires of this guys car, I announced my presence and he broke off in a run.

I thought of chasing him down but what would I do if I caught him and what if he was afraid enough of getting caught that he attacked me. I think chasing is a police officers job, if I was any of those wal-mart guys and knew he actually stole something I would rather report it to the cops than possibly risk my life for minimum wage.

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My vote is no draw, but I would have atleast followed and helped.



As "crazy gun nuts" (sorry, for humor i like to label myself as such, there are owners and then there's us), wetend to talk about being sheep dogs (I still don't like that myself), how police only react, are never around when needed, how it really shouldn't be their responsibility (and legally isn't), and things like that.

As a citizen that doesn't care for shoplifting, I'd try to at minimum follow and make sure the police know where he went.






(this just came to mind: http://gunowners.org/fs0402.htm)

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Not worth my time and liability to protect some business from getting stuff stolen. Now if the guy was pulling a weapon and threatening someone else, sure, do what needs to be done. But I'm not going to shoot someone for shoplifting......

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No draw.

Always think "what next?"

Option 1: You draw, he ignores / misses you....now what? Choice 1 = shoot him - bad choice. Choice 2 = stand there with your gun in your hand looking stupid and wondering how brandishing charges work......

Option 2: You draw, he stops and the store employee starts beating him (untrained + adrenaline = frequent unjustified use of force) ..... now what?

Option 3: You draw, he stops and is "taken into custody" by store employee for a misdemeanor offense. Store will trespass him and collect their $100+ civil fine, police might be called, and may show up in 45 minutes or so, to issue a citation, or pick him up for a couple of hours in lockup - except now there is a detention by a MWAG on a misdemeanor issue.....Who do you think the cops are interested in? Whatcha going to say?

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Hey guys, let me go off on a slight tangent here & throw this one out. I've read from several "respectable" sources (gun rags, Ayoob, etc) that in general you are not justified to draw/fire your weapon in a hand-to-hand fight. Say some punk (despite your best efforts to defuse) starts pushing & then punches you in the nose and makes like he's going to continue. Extenuating circumstances aside (no size difference, physical limitation, etc etc), "those who know" say no, you are not justified in using your weapon at such a point with an unarmed assailant.

Now the problem I see here, especially if you're OCing, is that if you try to defend yourself with your fists, get into a scuffle, or just run, said punk could potentially disarm you & use your own weapon against you. I'm not sure what the legal basis is here, but it seems to me if I'm openly armed & some fool physically attacks me, that does threaten my life.

Opinions?

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In the Walmart situation - I'd say no draw. Help if you wish, but you aren't a cop and you don't get to pull your gun whenever the situation *may* call for it. For those of us who carry, the level of a threat needs to be much higher.


Metalhead47 wrote:

Hey guys, let me go off on a slight tangent here & throw this one out. I've read from several "respectable" sources (gun rags, Ayoob, etc) that in general you are not justified to draw/fire your weapon in a hand-to-hand fight. Say some punk (despite your best efforts to defuse) starts pushing & then punches you in the nose and makes like he's going to continue. Extenuating circumstances aside (no size difference, physical limitation, etc etc), "those who know" say no, you are not justified in using your weapon at such a point with an unarmed assailant.

Now the problem I see here, especially if you're OCing, is that if you try to defend yourself with your fists, get into a scuffle, or just run, said punk could potentially disarm you & use your own weapon against you. I'm not sure what the legal basis is here, but it seems to me if I'm openly armed & some fool physically attacks me, that does threaten my life.

Opinions?

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In WA. we have a little better situation in that we have no "duty" to retreat and force is justified for instances where someone is trying to harm you. IANAL, but I think most would consider drawing one thing and shooting another. Drawing is certainly a level of "force", but is not yet lethal force.

In a physical fight where you are not the aggressor and possibly outmatched, I think drawing and warning would not be considered "excessive". Of course, one should never draw if unable or unwilling to fire, but that is not the same as requiring to fire. At that point it is up to the assailant to decide if he wishes to continue. The main thing is whether the threat warrants the response, that is somethign that you not only have to decide (in a moments notice) but also something you will have to be able to explain at some point.

I think everyone will agree that if the confrontation can be successfully stopped without firing, that is the better outcome. But just because the other person is "unarmed" doesn't mean that an armed response is excessive or unwarranted. There have been lots of instances where a single punch became lethal. Most recently, the incident in Rainier Beach last year with the man watering the traffic circle. One punch, the guy went down struck his head on the concrete, went into a coma and died the next day.

Additionally, you have to think about the possibility of your weapon coming free in a hand to hand scuffle. If you don't draw, the assailant may end up in control of the weapon. Best case at that point is that it is no longer available to you, worst case is it's used against you.

I am well past the point in my life where I wish to be grappling in the street. Too old and too out of shape. I had a few fights in my younger days and I don't remember enjoying any of them, even the ones I won. I don't antagonize others, I try to avoid areas where confrontation might be more likely to occur, and I generally mind my own business. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and all that..

My "plan" is that if safe retreat isn't an option, they get a warning/suggestion to move on and if they ignore that and come at me with evil intent, I clear leather and they can decide at that point what happens next.

I am convinced one of the benefits of OC is the deterrent effect to serve as "notice" for the thugs and hooligans to look elsewhere. I've been carrying a gun for over 20 years. Never had an occasion to draw while OC, while I have had occasion to draw while CC.

Fortunately in that case, the guy realized that his tire iron was out matched by my Stainless Dan Wesson .357 with a 6" vent heavy barrel (very intimidating looking firearm) and decided to exit stage left.

As he left he told me he was going to call the cops. I can only imagine how that conversation would go..."I want to report this guy pulled a gun on me when I tried to carjack him with a tire iron..."

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911Boss wrote:

One punch, the guy went down struck his head on the concrete, went into a coma and died the next day.

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Impossible, unless this man was living in Fear. The Unafraid know how to roll with the punches, and know no fear.

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marshaul wrote:

911Boss wrote:

One punch, the guy went down struck his head on the concrete, went into a coma and died the next day.

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Impossible, unless this man was living in Fear. The Unafraid know how to roll with the punches, and know no fear.

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Well considering it happened, I am going to say it certainly is possible. It may be a freak occurrence, but none the less it is possible.

It got lots of press and there were no differing stories on how it happened.

Fear is a good thing, it helps to keep aware of what is going on and make smart decisions. It should not be confused with cowardice. Those who are fearless and unafraid are often reckless and unwise as well.

In fact it could be argued that the man who died in this case was not only reckless, but "fearless" as well and brought it all upon himself.

I don't want to be the unlucky recipient of someone's lucky punch...


http://www.seattlepi.com/local/370251_beating11.html

"Traffic circle dispute turns tragic Quiet neighborhood chilled by death of man tending garden
By KERY MURAKAMI AND HECTOR CASTRO
P-I REPORTERS

A 60-year-old Rainier Beach man seriously injured in a dispute over a neighborhood traffic circle died Thursday night at Harborview Medical Center.

James Paroline had been in a coma since being punched and hitting his head on the concrete during the altercation Wednesday, while Seattle police continued to look for the suspect believed to have caused his injuries. He died about 9:20 p.m., a spokeswoman for the medical center said.

"The thing is, none of this had to happen," neighbor Richard Dixon said.

At about 7:45 p.m. Wednesday, Paroline was watering the little garden he had planted on the traffic circle at 61st Avenue South and South Cooper Street, Dixon said.

He ran a garden hose from his house at the corner to the traffic circle -- one of roughly 700 that city transportation officials estimate have gardens on them. When Dixon, 57, who was driving to Safeway, reached the corner intending to make a right turn, he found that Paroline, as he often does, had put a traffic cone in the right lane to keep drivers from driving over the hose.

Paroline often complained about drivers running it over, said Tim Aguero, 39, who also lives on the quiet street of small houses and florid lawns.

But that cone led to a confrontation with another motorist, in which Paroline was punched in the face and rushed to the hospital with life-threatening injuries, police said Thursday.

Dixon said Paroline told him to go left around the circle but, worried about a ticket, Dixon asked Paroline to move the cone and called 911 when he refused. Then, Dixon said, he saw a car of young women drive up.

One got out to tell Paroline to move the cone, police said. When he refused, the women began moving the cones themselves. Paroline sprayed one of the women with his hose.
"When she got sprayed, she really went crazy," Dixon said.

Ronald Tobin, 14, was outside playing when he heard the arguing. "They were yelling, and they were all up on (Paroline)," he said.

Police said that a short time later, another car drove up and a passenger -- described as an African-American man in his 20s, about 5 feet, 10 inches tall, weighing about 160 pounds, and wearing a gray tank top, black jeans and a blue do-rag -- got out to confront Paroline.

The man delivered "one punch," Dixon said.

Detectives do not know how the suspect is connected to the girls. But Tobin said the girls called out to a passing motorist just before the man showed up.

Police spokesman Mark Jamieson confirmed that the man hit Paroline, who fell on his back, struck his head on the concrete and was knocked unconscious. The assailant then got in his car and sped off."

Here are a few more reports of what you consider "impossible"...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504289/Yob-killed-father-single-punch-celebrated-hed-scored-goal.html

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/The-lives-shattered-by-a.5432621.jp

http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/free/Inquest-hears-that-single-punch.5214321.jp

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/14/2465659.htm

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marshaul wrote:

911Boss wrote:

One punch, the guy went down struck his head on the concrete, went into a coma and died the next day.

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Impossible, unless this man was living in Fear. The Unafraid know how to roll with the punches, and know no fear.

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Unless this is from some movie I've never seen, this is the dumbest line I've ever heard.

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911Boss wrote:

Metalhead47 wrote: Additionally, you have to think about the possibility of your weapon coming free in a hand to hand scuffle. If you don't draw, the assailant may end up in control of the weapon. Best case at that point is that it is no longer available to you, worst case is it's used against you.

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That's my biggest concern, and why red flags started going up when I read the advice mentioned in my previous post. If I'm armed, OC or CC, and get into a scuffle there's the very real possibility the other guy could end up with my weapon. That's much harder to do when it's at least in my hand. Had my first "oh shit" moment Sat nite while at the beach celebrating the 4th. Some drunk kid came up & started hassling my wife. The situation never came remotely close to even consider drawing, but the whole time I was thinking "Ok, I'm armed & some fool is trying to start shit, now how do I diffuse this?" Which got me thinking on the whole "never draw on a fist fight" mentality.