RIFLES... Can you CC one in VA?

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VCDL President wrote:

MSC 45ACP wrote:

Phillip:

Can a loaded magazine for said rifle be readily accessable if the rifle is visible?

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You bet. And that is the way to do it if you plan on that rifle being used for self-defense.

Although by state law you can have a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle, there are exceptions based on local laws and hunting laws and guns loaded with magazines that will hold MORE than 20 rounds in some large cities. My advice, keep in mind I am NOT a lawyer, is to keep the rifle or shotgun unloaded, in plain sight with a magazine or ammo nearby. If you decide to keep the gun out of reach (say in the trunk), I would still advise that you keep in unloaded.

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This may help.

But you still can't conceal it, and it's not clear to whom (or when) you make your case that a long gun is necessary for personal protection.

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2a4all wrote:

VCDL President wrote:

MSC 45ACP wrote:

Phillip:

Can a loaded magazine for said rifle be readily accessable if the rifle is visible?

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You bet. And that is the way to do it if you plan on that rifle being used for self-defense.

Although by state law you can have a loaded rifle or shotgun in your vehicle, there are exceptions based on local laws and hunting laws and guns loaded with magazines that will hold MORE than 20 rounds in some large cities. My advice, keep in mind I am NOT a lawyer, is to keep the rifle or shotgun unloaded, in plain sight with a magazine or ammo nearby. If you decide to keep the gun out of reach (say in the trunk), I would still advise that you keep in unloaded.

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This may help.

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But you still can't conceal it, and it's not clear to whom (or when) you make your case that a long gun is necessary for personal protection.

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Hence the advantage of an unloaded rifle with a magazine nearby.

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I think we covered this a couple years back, but I can't find:
Is a hatchback, back of a station wagon, back of an SUV, etc considered to be "inaccessible."
Caselaw cite?

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ufcfanvt wrote:

I think we covered this a couple years back, but I can't find:
Is a hatchback, back of a station wagon, back of an SUV, etc considered to be "inaccessible."
Caselaw cite?

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Wow... Ummmm ufc?

How did you know I had a station wagon/hatchback type vehicle? You been working your Google-Fu on street level again?:what:

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nova wrote:

VCDL President wrote:

hsmith wrote:

While I hate them, what about a AR/AK pistol?

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If it's legally a pistol, then your CHP covers it.

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finally...a practical use for these AK and AR "pistols" besides blasting money away downrange!
:lol:

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While yes its legal to carry a AK/AR pistol it may not be the smartest thing to do.

Even in a clear cut case of Self Defense the type of firearm used may be used against you. I think like you in that self defense is self defense and regarldess of what you used to defend yourself it should not matter if you used a Browning Ma Deuce or if you used a Pink Cricket. However, many don't think like us. Just ask Gary Fadden. AS this happen in Chantilly, VA and was probably one of the clearest cases of Self Defense I've ever read about. However, the type of firearm used for defense may come back to haunt you. Yes you may get off, howver you mayloose everything in the process. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_168_28/ai_112685749/

Even if that article did not persuade you. IIRC the Virginia Law Foundation http://www.vacle.org/php-bin/ecomm4/products.php?product_id=771Firearms Law in Virginia Seminar Materials has a document which discussess the usage of Firearms such as the AR pistol, SP-89, AK pistol in VA as a self defense firearm. While yes they are legal to carry under the CHP, they advise against it. I don't have a link directly to that; however, you can purchase the document from the above link.

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ufcfanvt wrote:

I think we covered this a couple years back, but I can't find:
Is a hatchback, back of a station wagon, back of an SUV, etc considered to be "inaccessible."
Caselaw cite?

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I can't find anything specific to Virginia, but according to Federal law involving interstate transport of firearms:

Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, 926A:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000926---A000-.html

neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

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So maybe a small luggage padlock on the chair bag would suffice, and still be inconspicuous?

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VCDL President wrote:

You cannot legally conceal a rifle or shotgun in VA. If it is within your reach, it must be visible or encased in a gun case. CHP does not protect you from a concealed weapon charge for anything but handguns.

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Thank you for bringing some sanity to this! A quick reading of the law should be all that is required for one to see...

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material... he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony.

D. Any person 21 years of age or older may apply in writing to the clerk of the circuit court of the county or city in which he resides, or if he is a member of the United States Armed Forces, the county or city in which he is domiciled, for a five-year permit to carry a concealed handgun.

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Your permit only allows you to carry a HANDGUN concealed, whereas 18.2-308 otherwise prohibits the carry of ANY firearm "about your person, hidden from common observation", among other things.

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I am new to VA, but also curious about legally carrying a rifle with me. Sounds like having an unloaded rifle in the trunk and several loaded magazines is the way to go in VA.

Can the loaded magazines be in the same bag as the unloaded rifle to be legal?

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gis wrote:

I am new to VA, but also curious about legally carrying a rifle with me. Sounds like having an unloaded rifle in the trunk and several loaded magazines is the way to go in VA.

Can the loaded magazines be in the same bag as the unloaded rifle to be legal?

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I would find it very hard to articulate that you used appropriate force having a rifle stowed in your trunk. Not saying don't do it. I would just stop and think about this one for a second. What situation do you invision needing a Rifle in your trunk with a bunch of spare magazines when you already have a pistol?

How do articulate reasonable self defense factoring in the time it takes to pop your trunk, load the rifle, and use it for self defense. I would think a reasonable jury would say, why didn't you take the time to "drive a way!" Now if thats your only option over a pistol lets say your travelinginto NY, and its your only option then go and run with it.

However I carry a pistol not because I expect the ninjas to fall from the ceiling, but rather the opposite I do not expect anything exciting to happen between now and 2100 hours tonight when I go to bed. If somebody told me at 1700 hours your going to be involved in a gun fight in the parking lot you probably need an AR or similiar platform, I would respond by saying okay well I'm going to leave work at 1600hours so I don't have be to be involved.

In todays age of Cell phones and wireless communications, I would find it very hard to articulate storing a rifle in your trunk with loaded mags and articulating reasonable self defense. Sure there are going to be extreme cases however, they are titled extreme for a reason varying heavily from normal circumstance. Now if we are talking Zombies/Civil unrest then why is the gun in the Trunk why is it not in your lap. In a civil unrest case usually there would probably an advance notice I.E. Katrina and then you would be held up your house with the safe open and everything pre-loaded.

Again I'm not saying you shouldn't do this, however, how are others going to percieve you. Frankly if I was on your jury I would ask you how the 72 grain TAP performed out of a 1/8 inch twist barrell; however, its not guys like me that are going to decide if I thought you were just defending yourself or label you as something else.

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AFAIK an unloaded rifle or shotgun may be stored in a rifle rack.

Keep ammunition separate.

I also remember reading somewhere that it is actually still legal in VA for anyone who is lawfully permitted to carry a firearm to have an unloaded rifle or shotgun stored similarly on school grounds...

From § 18.2-308.1

(vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle;

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Rob, there's nothing wrong with being prepared for the extreme case. Hell, carrying a pistol is already being prepared for the extreme case. There are times and circumstances where it would be beneficial to have a rifle in your vehicle, although they are thankfully extremely rare.

Without saying it, you seem to imply that the rifle would be used in the same circumstances as a pistol. To me, that's not why someone would keep a rifle in their car. It's for those (very, very rare) circumstances where a pistol is the wrong firearm.

~ Boyd

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TexasNative wrote:

Rob, there's nothing wrong with being prepared for the extreme case. Hell, carrying a pistol is already being prepared for the extreme case. There are times and circumstances where it would be beneficial to have a rifle in your vehicle, although they are thankfully extremely rare.

Without saying it, you seem to imply that the rifle would be used in the same circumstances as a pistol. To me, that's not why someone would keep a rifle in their car. It's for those (very, very rare) circumstances where a pistol is the wrong firearm.

~ Boyd

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I don't disagree with you; however, my question was not answered. I agree in a rare circumstance you may have the wrong tool for the job. However. we have already determined that carrying a rifle for "immediate" protection of oneself is a no no in VA. How do you articulate carrrying a rifle in the trunk of a car as a tool used to protect yourself from immiediate an imminent threat. When you could have simple just taken your 2000 pound Car and driven away. Threats outside of home I would advice against trying to justify that carrying a rifle in your trunk is a good protection tool.

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Ever heard of Charles Whitman?

~ Boyd

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TexasNative wrote:

Ever heard of Charles Whitman?

~ Boyd

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The Bell tower shootings happened in the 1960's, today we havede-evolved intoa very litigous society. In those days people looked at things quiet differently then they do today. Today everybody is connected through cell phones. Therefore if I am in my car or have the ability to get to my car and drive away because somebody is shooting at me with a rifle from an elavated position I choose drive away and contact appropriate response I will do that instead of trying to engage a target with a long gun.My personal pros and consthat I have weighed say its not smart to have a long gun in my trunk and try and say its for personal protection. Home"Yes" outside"NO". I would much rather simple drive away then engage a target with a long gun. I think one would have a hard time articulating accessing the rifle out of the trunk of his/her car, engaging a target and then not even bat an eye lash at the reprocussion coming down after the fact. I'm not saying using a rifle is bad bad bad for self defense I'm saying weigh the pros and cons before you make the choice of a decesion (although yes its legal to have a long gun in the trunk of your car)it deviates from the self defense norms as our society or even state sees it. While you look at it as prepared for this one time occurance, I see it backfiring for an individual if that individual was caught up in a case that is much more likely of occuring.

Modern firearms Training dictates if somethings going downand your armed and in a safe location going into an unknown is a bad tactical/civil decession. Becoming the aggressor can hcause you to loose your life or can have possible bad legal ramificationsif you choose to be the aggressor going into a situation you don't fully understand. Some have choosen to leave with good results but if you stick to the odds your much more likely to be safer staying put. Therefore why would I make myself less safer and open myself to a world of possible civil suits if I make a mistake.

PS Ever Heard ofJames Yeager? If not watch the Video.This was a gentleman in IRAQ whos convoy of cars was ambushed by one shooter. Theywhere armed toteethsome having belt feds sittingin their laps.Even with the car stillrunning he choose tojump out and engage with his carbine.If your talking about an ambush situation i.e a bell tower case, getting away is probably the best possible choice.

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rob99vmi04 wrote:

Therefore if I am in my car or have the ability to get to my car and drive away because somebody is shooting at me with a rifle from an elavated position I choose drive away and contact appropriate response I will do that instead of trying to engage a target with a long gun.

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You choose to leave the danger. Others choose to engage it. Everyone must decide for themselves.

~ Boyd

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rob99vmi04 wrote:

TexasNative wrote:

Rob, there's nothing wrong with being prepared for the extreme case. Hell, carrying a pistol is already being prepared for the extreme case. There are times and circumstances where it would be beneficial to have a rifle in your vehicle, although they are thankfully extremely rare.

Without saying it, you seem to imply that the rifle would be used in the same circumstances as a pistol. To me, that's not why someone would keep a rifle in their car. It's for those (very, very rare) circumstances where a pistol is the wrong firearm.

~ Boyd

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I don't disagree with you; however, my question was not answered. I agree in a rare circumstance you may have the wrong tool for the job. However. we have already determined that carrying a rifle for "immediate" protection of oneself is a no no in VA. How do you articulate carrrying a rifle in the trunk of a car as a tool used to protect yourself from immiediate an imminent threat. When you could have simple just taken your 2000 pound Car and driven away. Threats outside of home I would advice against trying to justify that carrying a rifle in your trunk is a good protection tool.

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Agreed as long as car runs. But what if it doesn't? Not advocating carrying a rifle, just trowing it out there...

P.S. I actually thought about keeping a shotgun unloaded in the trunk for a scenario where I'm stranded somewhere in the wilderness....but then since 99% of my driving is between my work in Alexandria and home in Centreville, I figured I need to take off this tinfoil hat and settle for a handgun :lol:

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In the case of a terrorist attack or large scale violent civil unrest, a rifle might be a handy thing to have in the trunk.

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TexasNative wrote:

rob99vmi04 wrote:

Therefore if I am in my car or have the ability to get to my car and drive away because somebody is shooting at me with a rifle from an elavated position I choose drive away and contact appropriate response I will do that instead of trying to engage a target with a long gun.

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You choose to leave the danger. Others choose to engage it. Everyone must decide for themselves.

~ Boyd

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Exactly!!! Any highly respected trainer teaching self defense at the civilian level will tell you to avoid a confrentation. Going looking for trouble has a whole differn't set of consequences. While guys like me would look at your logicand say your actions have noble intentions as a civilian; however, guys like me are not the ones you have to convience!!!!! I have no responsibility to you vs. you have no responsiblity to me.

Criminally/and Civilily If I use lethal force to proctect you I have so much more to loose then if I choose to simple walk away.

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VCDL President wrote:

In the case of a terrorist attack or large scale violent civil unrest, a rifle might be a handy thing to have in the trunk.

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Good point. Civil unrest caused by a large-scale terror attack could happen without warning.

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VCDL President wrote:

In the case of a terrorist attack or large scale violent civil unrest, a rifle might be a handy thing to have in the trunk.

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Again, I'm not saying it is not a un useful tool in times like that. There have been documented cases of individuals using them in Katrina while there was civilian unrest and "illegal Marshal law orders given". However, even in that case fair warning was given. A Catagory 5 hurricane is going to come in and knock out all the food, power, and possible crush your house. People had time to prepare,but for daily practice, and having one for a more likely occurance for a case of self defense I would say it may work against you if you ever deployed. But as stated in my previous post "If law and order is still in effect" I think it would be hard justifing the use of a tactical carbine stored with loaded magazines in the trunk of your car.