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Thread: OC'ed in the Post Office

  1. #1
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    Well, carried openly into the post office in Moscow, Idaho yesterday for the first time. While I certainly believe that I SHOULDN'T be hassled or approached (i.e. infringed upon) in a federal government building, I was still surprised that I wasn't. I am sure the clerk saw it...his eyes might have widened just a little...LOL!! But to his credit he said nothing and just helped me with my business. We shall see what happens in the future. I don't actually go to the P.O. very often.

    Dave

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    thefirststrike wrote:
    Well, carried openly into the post office in Moscow, Idaho yesterday for the first time. While I certainly believe that I SHOULDN'T be hassled or approached (i.e. infringed upon) in a federal government building, I was still surprised that I wasn't. I am sure the clerk saw it...his eyes might have widened just a little...LOL!! But to his credit he said nothing and just helped me with my business. We shall see what happens in the future. I don't actually go to the P.O. very often.

    Dave
    Just FYI it is illegal to carry a firearm in a Post Office. 18 U.S.C. Section 930.

    Basically unless you are a cop you are not allowed to carry in Post Offices. Be Careful.

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    [img]images/icons/topic_popular.gif[/img] Carrying firearms in Idaho Page: 1 2
    Where is it illegal?

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    2nd Amendment wrote:
    [img]images/icons/topic_popular.gif[/img] Carrying firearms in Idaho Page: 1 2
    Where is it illegal?
    TITLE 39 - POSTAL SERVICE
    CHAPTER I - UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE
    SUBCHAPTER D - ORGANIZATION AND ADMINISTRATION
    PART 232 - CONDUCT ON POSTAL PROPERTY
    232.1 - Conduct on postal property.

    (l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.



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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Just FYI it is illegal to carry a firearm in a Post Office. 18 U.S.C. Section 930.




    18 USC 930 does not make carry of a firearm in government buildings for lawful purposes illegal. Itprohibitscarrying or using firearms in government buildings for unlawful purposes.

    For what is truly prohibited one must look to the sections of code that proscribe otherwise lawful activities as unlawful. 18 USC 930 is like many other laws that add layers of redundancy. Anything unlawful you do in a government building is already covered under some local/state/federal criminal code from theft to murder.

    But firststrikes actionscould be the vehicle to clarify all theobfuscation found within the federal code or some bureaucrats’ rendition of it. if the Postal Inspectors take the bait we will find out.

    What violation is being committed? Certainly not under 18 USC 930(a), for on its face he is exempt under 18 USC 930(d)(3).





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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    Under the postal code what is official? If your business is with the post office is not your business official? Is a Corporate officer in his official duties delivering or picking up mail at a postal facility exempt? Is an armedprivate security guard dropping/picking up bonded registered materials exempt?



    We all have the right to know.

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    Regular Member Cremator75's Avatar
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    I find this Post Office rule quit amusing since the Postal Service is not even technically federal. It is a private business. Look it up.

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    Test case time!While I agree that it is technically legal to carry in the Post Office becausenot allowing privatecitizens to enter violates theirfundamental right to bear arms.

    I believe that the original statutory language passed out of Congressprovides an exception tocarry for 'lawful purposes',which the OP is no doubt relying on. The regulations promulgated pursuant to those statutesremoves thelawful purpose exemption entirely. So technically he has a colorable case, butI'd have to agree that he is going to get railroaded by the system on this one! He is sure to lose and we'd all be worse off.

    The wiser course of action is just to carry concealed and hope you never have to use it for self-defense inside the Post Office. Sooner or later an armed citizen, carrying concealed,is going to stop a violent crime inside a Post Office...let that be the test case!



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    NavyLT wrote:
    Cremator75 wrote:
    I find this Post Office rule quit amusing since the Postal Service is not even technically federal. It is a private business. Look it up.
    You are correct. And that is EXACTLY why the post office does NOT fall under 18 USC 930. And that is also EXACTLY why they have their own rules PROHIBITING carrying or storing weapons on their property. It has NOTHING to do with twisting 18 USC 930 from saying "lawful" into saying "official" - they made up their own rules.
    This is interesting info. As a private business, I wonder how they get out of charging sales tax in most states? Anyway, I think that the best strategy fordoing away with the Post Office gun-free zone is to avoid a direct frontal assault in the courts.

    Instead it is best to fight and first win the OTHER gun-free zone battles in thelegislature, not the Federal Court system which is already anti-gun and becoming more so with every new Obama appointee. Once the other gun-free zones disappear, the Post Office ban will fall by the wayside as well.

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    It is illegal, period. 39 USC--and has nothing to do with 18 USC, clearly and specifically makes it so. Don't suggest or try a "test case" unless you want to spend some time in Danbury or another country club prison.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Per 39 USC 410, 18 USC 930 does not apply in post offices.

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Conce...rude-awakening

    The aforementioned 39 CFR 232.1 is the only restriction in play.

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    So how many uniformed LEO's, armed guards or even Postal inspectors have been arrested under 39 CFR for beings armed in a post office while mailing or picking up personal packages or conducting other non "official" business?

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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    lockman wrote:
    So how many uniformed LEO's,Â* armed guards or even Postal inspectors have been arrested under 39 CFR for beings armed in a post office while mailing or picking up personal packages or conducting other non "official" business?
    None.Â* Because a uniformed LEO, armed guard and Postal inspectors are carrying their weapons in an official capacity as a LEO, armed guard or Postal inspector.Â* Average Joe, even with a CCW permit, does not carry their weapon as part of their official duties, we only carry ours for self protection.
    My safety is part of my official duty as protector of my existence.

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    Good luck getting a judge to buy that line of thought.

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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Not saying they would...but my reason for carrying is just as valid as that LEO's. Whether a judge can remove his head from his own ass long enough to realize the truth in that is debatable.

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    ************wrote:
    Well, carried openly into the post office in Moscow, Idaho yesterday for the first time. While I certainly believe that I SHOULDN'T be hassled or approached (i.e. infringed upon) in a federal government building, I was still surprised that I wasn't. I am sure the clerk saw it...his eyes might have widened just a little...LOL!! But to his credit he said nothing and just helped me with my business. We shall see what happens in the future. I don't actually go to the P.O. very often.

    ****
    Anyway, just in case you decide to be cautious, you may want to consider deleting your original post. You are almost certainly on the Post Office video surveillance system and just because you haven't heard anything, several weeks or months from now you can still receive that rude awakening (i.e. arrest out the blue). This happened to anopen carrier in California who was otherwise legally carrying in a laundromat. Several months later he found himself arrested because some DA with a tape measuredetermined that the spot he was standing on was within 1,000 feet of some type of educational facility.

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    18 USC 930 also has this....



    (h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.

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    Quit whinning and babbling, e-mail all of the following, let's get this fixed once and for all, nation wide effort, several people in ID, WY, and MT have already done this and believe it or not positive comments are being received back, what about you ? Stand up for your RIGHTS or quit whinning and babbling.

    Also if your are on this web site - you probably own at least one firearm or knife or tomahawk - all of which are "ARMS" and protected under the SECOND AMENDMENT, which is the word "ARMS" not just guns.

    You and everyone in your family regardless of sex or age should be dues paying and card carrying members of "all" of the following organizations: NRA, GOA, SAF, CCRKBA, SAS, JPFO, KnifeRights.org, AKTI, Appleseed, American Revolutionary War Veteran Assocation, IPDA, your State Rifle & Pistol Association, your State Shooting Sports Association, and at least one local gun club

    You and everyone in your family regardless of sex or age (maybe be restriction in some States on the age) should have "all three (3)" of these licenses a hunting, fishing, and trapping license - American Tradition - all of which are Firearm, Knive, and Tomahawk (ARMS) related.

    If all 70 million gun owners formed together and were active, we would have our own Party, then could elect anyone we wanted to any office in the country including the President in 2012 and many others in 2010.

    http://www.sheriffmack.com/

    Request Sheriff Mack to speak in your local area.

    Buy Sheriff Mack's books - read - buy books send a copy to Both of your Senators, All Representatives in your State, your State Governor, your State Attorney General, andyour County Sheriff

    Below is the form e-mail body we are using, use it or change it or write whatever you want, we feel like this below covers everything A-Z wise, and could be the basis for a Bill then a new Law.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Send Individual e-mails (e-mail is quicker) or letters to each of the following:

    To: Both of your Senators, All Representatives in your State, your State Governor, your State Attorney General, your County Sheriff, NRA, GOA, SAF, CCRKBA, SAS, JPFO, KnifeRights.org, AKTI, Appleseed, American Revolutionary War Veteran Assocation, IPDA,your State Rifle & Pistol Association, your State Shooting Sports Association, and at least one local gun club

    Subject: Post Office - Why would anyone want to go where your right to protect yourself has been taken away? and Doyou guarantee my protection?

    Reply Requested.

    1. Many Citizens go to the Post Office to buy postage stamps, pickup mail, and drop off mail on a routine basis:

    a. why should they have to go unarmed if they can legally own firearms and knives.


    b. if they have been hunting or doing many other outdoor activities or ranchers and farmers or can carry legally without or with a permit - why should they have to go home to leave their firearms and knives before going to the Post Office or park in the street next to the Post Office (city property not federal property).

    c. Think about the elderly and handicapped or the weather is 40 below zero, snow 2 feet deep, and wind blowing 50 mph. Think about the Second Amendment - the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (Firearms, Knives, Tomahawks, etc). Think about who is personally responsible for the safety of Citizens while at the Post Office - Yes the Post Office, who can be sued - Yes the Post Office. Reply Requested.

    d. This is USPS controlled property is federal property which makes it taxpayer property. There are no government secrets or classified assetskept at the USPS, there is no reason not even one poor reason not to allow Citizens to conduct their official Citizen business at the USPS while armed in accordance with State law (just as was recently accomplished for National Parks).

    e. Citizens should be allowed to conduct their official Citizen business at the USPS, while being armed if they so desire, in the public access areas of the USPS - meaning the parking lot, the area inside the USPS building where stamps are bought, packages are mailed, etc and where the PO Boxes are.

    2. Request__________ (fill in the blank for whomever you are sending to) to "draft up" a "bill/law" to get this through like was recently done with conceal carry in National Parks."""""Carry of firearms in accordance with State law, open or concealed - modeled sort of after the National Park law for carry except include both "inside and outside" in public access areas of the USPS (post office) property (i.e. parking, buying stamps, mailing mail or picking up mail, etc).

    3. Below are several internet links discussing this issue, including the various laws (no password's or user id's required - read the "state of confusion created by these confusing federal laws and rules). Opinions abound in many different directions. No one with any common sense can make a yes or no decision, some even say it is a gray area.

    In the words of John Wayne - A True Real American - " If everything isn't black and white, I say, 'Why the hell not?' "

    4. Thank you for your support, cooperation, and research. Doyou guarantee my protection?


  19. #19
    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    NavyLT wrote:
    18 USC 930 does NOT apply to the post office !!!!!

    How many times do we have to restate this!
    I figure you just like to keep restating it.

    Otherwise, each time you post this you'd include your reason as to why, in your opinion, it does not apply.



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    Post Office is not federal ? wrong.

    Property (land and building) is owned by the FEDERAL GOVT, check the land title.

    Post Office does not buy insurance because they are covered by the federal govt, because they are federal govt.

    Employees are either civil service (hired before on or about 1985 give or take a year or 2) or FERS (FEDERAL EMPLOYEE RETIREMENT SYSTEM).

    Post Office does not charge Sales Tax - because they are FEDERAL GOVT.

    Post Office vehicles belong to the federal govt.

    Employee of the Post Office are protected just like any other federal govt employee, in the offense sort of way.

    Employees can participate in the FEDERAL govt - TSP - Thrift Savings Plan just like any other federal govt employee including the military *LT NAVY*.

    and the list goes on and on.

    Now - what the Post Office is "self suppporting" - does not receive tax dollars for operations - has to live within it's sources of revenue.







  21. #21
    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    (b) The following provisions shall apply to the Postal Service:

    (1) section 552 (public information), section 552a (records about individuals), section 552b (open meetings), section 3102 (employment of personal assistants for blind, deaf, or otherwise handicapped employees), section 3110 (restrictions on employment of relatives), section 3333 and chapters 72 (antidiscrimination; right to petition Congress) and 73 (suitability, security, and conduct of employees), section 5520 (withholding city income or employment taxes), and section 5532 [1] (dual pay) of title 5, except that no regulation issued under such chapters or section shall apply to the Postal Service unless expressly made applicable;

    (2) all provisions of title 18 dealing with the Postal Service, the mails, and officers or employees of the Government of the United States;
    So title 18 does apply?

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    so NavyLT, do you oc in civvies at the PO?

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    How is that a relevant question? Looking for a web based ******* match?

  24. #24
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    Vandal wrote:
    How is that a relevant question? Looking for a web based ******* match?
    no. Based on his font and text he seemed very sure of himself:


    NavyLT wrote:
    18 USC 930 does NOT apply to the post office !!!!!

    How many times do we have to restate this!

    I wished to see if he was himself a test case in the making.

    thanks for answering me NavyLT


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