Question About OC on Pike's Peak Cog Train

Ian · Jul 7, 2009

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Hey guys, going to be a resident of Colorado within a week, very excited!

Anyways, I was curious about open carry on the Pike's Peak cog train that goes to the top of the mountain and if that would be considered public transportation and if it would be illegal to OC (excluding the possibility that they ban it as a company).

*Edit*
If it is classified as public transportation, could I just carry unloaded with spare mags on my weak side and be fine?

zach · Jul 7, 2009

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I sent them an email. Curious to see the response.

Ian · Jul 7, 2009

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zach wrote:

I sent them an email. Curious to see the response.

That's a BAD idea. Generally speaking, whenever you email or call a company and ask if it's okay to carry there then they will say NO GUNS! Even though they may not even know the gun policy. A better question to ask them would be if they are considered public transportation.

Evil Ernie · Jul 7, 2009

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Was just on their website. Seems that they're more worried about you bringing your own food and bevs than firearms...

As far as "public transportation", I believe the PP&MS is privately owned, therefore shouldn't fall under the public trans rules. IANAL...

Ian · Jul 8, 2009

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Hey, you never know when you might need to be armed at 14,110 ft

Dynamite Rabbit · Jul 8, 2009

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The statute regarding carrying firearms:

18-9-118. Firearms, explosives, or incendiary devices in facilities of public transportation.

A person commits a class 6 felony if, without legal authority, he has any loaded firearm or explosive or incendiary device, as defined in section 9-7-103, C.R.S., in his possession in, or carries, brings, or causes to be carried or brought any of such items into, any facility of public transportation, as defined in section 18-9-115 (4).

This is 18-9-115:

(2) "Public" means offered or available to the public generally, either free or upon payment of a fare, fee, rate, or tariff, or offered or made available by a school or school district to pupils regularly enrolled in public or nonpublic schools in preschool through grade twelve.

(3) "Public conveyance" includes a train, airplane, bus, truck, car, boat, tramway, gondola, lift, elevator, escalator, or other device intended, designed, adapted, and used for the public carriage of persons or property.

(4) "Facility of public transportation" includes a public conveyance and any area, structure, or device which is designed, adapted, and used to support, guide, control, permit, or facilitate the movement, starting, stopping, takeoff, landing, or servicing of a public conveyance or the loading or unloading of passengers or goods.

It seems to me it's walking on thin ice. Not sure it's worth a felony charge. Although this must not be used often -- it sounds to me that it could be illegal to carry on an escalator, even if it's legal to carry in the building. I wonder if there's case law for this statute.

Ian · Jul 8, 2009

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Dynamite Rabbit wrote:

The statute regarding carrying firearms:

18-9-118. Firearms, explosives, or incendiary devices in facilities of public transportation.

A person commits a class 6 felony if, without legal authority, he has any loaded firearm or explosive or incendiary device, as defined in section 9-7-103, C.R.S., in his possession in, or carries, brings, or causes to be carried or brought any of such items into, any facility of public transportation, as defined in section 18-9-115 (4).

This is 18-9-115:

(2) "Public" means offered or available to the public generally, either free or upon payment of a fare, fee, rate, or tariff, or offered or made available by a school or school district to pupils regularly enrolled in public or nonpublic schools in preschool through grade twelve.

(3) "Public conveyance" includes a train, airplane, bus, truck, car, boat, tramway, gondola, lift, elevator, escalator, or other device intended, designed, adapted, and used for the public carriage of persons or property.

(4) "Facility of public transportation" includes a public conveyance and any area, structure, or device which is designed, adapted, and used to support, guide, control, permit, or facilitate the movement, starting, stopping, takeoff, landing, or servicing of a public conveyance or the loading or unloading of passengers or goods.

It seems to me it's walking on thin ice. Not sure it's worth a felony charge. Although this must not be used often -- it sounds to me that it could be illegal to carry on an escalator, even if it's legal to carry in the building. I wonder if there's case law for this statute.

Like I said, to be completely covered, I will probably just carry an empty mag in the pistol and two loaded mags on my weak side since the law only refers to a loaded firearm. Also, in this situation, would a Colorado CHL be considered legal authority even if you are open carrying?

Gunslinger · Jul 8, 2009

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No. You can't open carry with a CCW where OC is prohibited. CO law doesn't provide having a CCW as affirmative defense for unlawful OC.

Ian · Jul 8, 2009

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Gunslinger wrote:

No. You can't open carry with a CCW where OC is prohibited. CO law doesn't provide having a CCW as affirmative defense for unlawful OC.

Well in this case, it's not OC that is prohibited per se. It is the general carrying of a loaded firearm we're talking about.

Gunslinger · Jul 8, 2009

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CCW and state preemption allow for CC on public conveyance. Therefore, OC is the instant issue.

GAMER80116 · Jul 8, 2009

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Could you concealed carry on the cog train?

rpyne · Jul 8, 2009

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Dynamite Rabbit wrote:

The statute regarding carrying firearms:

18-9-118. Firearms, explosives, or incendiary devices in facilities of public transportation.

A person commits a class 6 felony if, without legal authority, he has any loaded firearm or explosive or incendiary device, as defined in section 9-7-103, C.R.S., in his possession in, or carries, brings, or causes to be carried or brought any of such items into, any facility of public transportation, as defined in section 18-9-115 (4).

This is 18-9-115:

(2) "Public" means offered or available to the public generally, either free or upon payment of a fare, fee, rate, or tariff, or offered or made available by a school or school district to pupils regularly enrolled in public or nonpublic schools in preschool through grade twelve.

(3) "Public conveyance" includes a train, airplane, bus, truck, car, boat, tramway, gondola, lift, elevator, escalator, or other device intended, designed, adapted, and used for the public carriage of persons or property.

(4) "Facility of public transportation" includes a public conveyance and any area, structure, or device which is designed, adapted, and used to support, guide, control, permit, or facilitate the movement, starting, stopping, takeoff, landing, or servicing of a public conveyance or the loading or unloading of passengers or goods.

It seems to me it's walking on thin ice. Not sure it's worth a felony charge. Although this must not be used often -- it sounds to me that it could be illegal to carry on an escalator, even if it's legal to carry in the building. I wonder if there's case law for this statute.

This is asinine! You can be in a building where you can lawfully carry and the moment you step into the elevator or onto an escalator you become a felon. Who comes up with this crap? Actually, after reading section 4, I see that you cannot even carry in a building that has an escalator or elevator because under these definitions the building is a "structure ... used to support ... a public conveyance" and is therefore a "facility of public transportation."

The only cause I can figure is the oxygen deprivation to the brain caused by the altitude. :lol:

Ian · Jul 9, 2009

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GAMER555 wrote:

Could you concealed carry on the cog train?

Negative. Florida CHL won't be valid in Colorado. I'm going to apply right when I move for the Colorado one because I have already had a place there and proof of residence for over 3 months, but it will be a while before I can conceal since it takes a long time for these things usually.

zach · Jul 9, 2009

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Still no reply to the email. The email sent was very vague, bad or not it was sent.

I just received my permit, 2 months turn around time.

If you are moving to El Paso County Ian, you may want to call and see what the wait time is for an appointment to turn in your application. When I spoke with them it was 2-3 weeks before they had available time slots but that was several months ago.

Augustin · Jul 14, 2009

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Dynamite Rabbit wrote:

It seems to me it's walking on thin ice. Not sure it's worth a felony charge. ...it sounds to me that it could be illegal to carry on an escalator, even if it's legal to carry in the building.

I agree. Why risk it?

Seems to me the thing to do is open carry up to the ticket booth or office and ask about their policy. You wouldn't actually be on the train yet. If the reply is anything other than "of course you can" either simply return to your vehicle and stow the gun.

Or better yet, tell them to shove it and insteadhike the trail up to the summit and back down from the town of Manitou while OC'ing, or drive the Pikes Peak Highway yourself while OC'ing.

Your comment about the escallator blew my socks off. Nice to hear from thinking people. Add elavators, and perhaps evenconveyor belts, dumbwaiters,and hoists (such as for bungee jumping) to the list.

AUGustin

Question About OC on Pike's Peak Cog Train

Ian

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zach

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