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Thread: OC in CPL free zones

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    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    ghostrider wrote:
    He's half right. A theater is off limits to CC if has a seating capacity of more than 2500. You may CC in theaters with lower seating capacity.
    Veritas wrote:
    True. But, while I'm sure they exist, I haven't seen any less-than-2,500 seating capacity theaters around here.





    Those are usually the ones located in your smaller towns. We have one here in Oxford. I know there are many more out there. Of course your regular star theatres and MJR's are all typically over the 2,500 limit. Sometimes what I do is just call and ask for their total seating capacity if I'm not sure. I always get the answer, and they have no idea why I'm asking.


    Edit: to add prior quote

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    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    Posted: Wed Jul 8th, 2009 07:26 am





    Veritas wrote: [/b]
    According to Michigan law, it is illegal to open carry a pistol in a retail establishment that is regulated by the Liquor Control Commission. And since concealing is illegal without a CPL, then the place, in effect, becomes a PFZ unless you have a CPL (the same as a school, bar, stadium, etc, etc).
    I consider a theater a restricted zone because you can ONLY open carry. Your option to conceal, even if you are licensed to do so, is restricted by the State.Since firearms are banned by the insitution, and since the State does not allow you to conceal, there is no way for you to carry that gun without facing ejection.

    If the theater does not allow open carry, then the venue, in effect, becomes a PFZ.

    Whenever I see a "no firearms" sign in a place that is not otherwise restricted by the State, I simply conceal. What they don't know doesn't hurt them.
    I'm well aware of the seating capacity restrictions - I guess I just hadn't done the math! Was thinking that a capacity of 2500 was a pretty high estimate for theaters, but I guess not so much. So, assuming that the theater has LESS than 2500 capacity, doesn't sell alcohol, and doesn't have it posted "no firearms" - should be OC friendly. As long as those conditions are met, I don't see why or how CC is restricted by the state.

    ...And as far as retail stores that sell package alcohol - apparently I've been wrong this whole time. I was sure that restrictions only came with establishments that serve alcohol. So, just as to understand this clearly, these places are restricted to OC with CPL, and NO-CARRY without CPL? ...meaning that even w/CPL one wouldn't be technically able to legally conceal into a 7-11 that sells beer? Blasphemy!! LOL
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    hopnpop wrote:
    I'm well aware of the seating capacity restrictions - I guess I just hadn't done the math! Was thinking that a capacity of 2500 was a pretty high estimate for theaters, but I guess not so much. So, assuming that the theater has LESS than 2500 capacity, doesn't sell alcohol, and doesn't have it posted "no firearms" - should be OC friendly. As long as those conditions are met, I don't see why or how CC is restricted by the state.It's not really, when you consider that many theaters have 8, 10, 12, etc, screens under one roof.

    ...And as far as retail stores that sell package alcohol - apparently I've been wrong this whole time. I was sure that restrictions only came with establishments that serve alcohol. So, just as to understand this clearly, these places are restricted to OC with CPL, and NO-CARRY without CPL? ...meaning that even w/CPL one wouldn't be technically able to legally conceal into a 7-11 that sells beer? Blasphemy!! LOL If you have a CPL, you can CC or OC in the establishment. Without the CPL you cannot CC or OC there. Per 750.234d, if you have permission from the owner/agent of the establishment, you can OC there if you do not have a CPL.
    ETA: if you do not have a CPL.

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    You have to look at the different laws that apply.

    750.234d
    covers the places we CAN NOT open carry .

    It includes:

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:........

    d) A theatre.......

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws

    However....

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:......

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon
    .

    Then we have
    MCL 28.425a which has a different list.......

    Individuals licensed to carry a concealed pistol by Michigan or another state are prohibited from carrying a
    concealed pistol in the following areas
    :



    An entertainment facility that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or.

    A tavern where the primary source of income is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass consumed on the premises

    As you see, the “theatre” in 750.234 is not the same as the “entertainment facility” in 28.425.

    There is nothing in 750.234 about liquor by the glass but it is in 28.425.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    In regards to a CPL holder, I have a really hard time buying into the idea that a theater with a bunch of 300 person or so theaters is a venue seating more than 2500, and therefor a CC free zone. It obviously is not, it's a bunch of little entertainment facilities on one premises.

    Of course, common sense and gun laws are 2 separate things. Does anyone know if there has been case law on that?
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    MCRGO's take on this:

    One of the places that I cannot carry concealed is, "An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals..." (MCL 28.425o. In a movie theater complex (example 18 screens) is the number of seats the total of each individual room or the total of all rooms combined?

    A:
    The word "facility" is not defined in the statute. When a word does not have a statutory meaning, the dictionary definition applies. One of the meanings given for "facility" in the American Heritage dictionary is, "Something created to serve a particular function." An entertainment facility is something created to supply entertainment. Therefore, the 2,500 seating capacity rule applies to the entire movie complex and not just one theater within the complex.



    Based on their answer,my guesswould be no, there's no case law on this.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Ok the skinny on places licensed to sell liqueur.

    OC is not allowed in any of them unless you have a CPL. As the law says licenced to sell liquire.

    CC is allowed in stores that sell packaged liquire but do not sell by the glass and resteraunts that sell liqueur but derive more than 50% of their income from something other than liqueur ... such as food.

    Bars that sell by the glass are off limits BC they generally derive the majority of their income from booze. If they did lets say it says bar and grill or saloon out front but they very obviously sell more food... thats when you should ask. So how is business? Do you find that the food industry of the liquire sales are more profitable? In most cases they will tell you.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Here is another one:

    a building or place that provides a particular service or is used for a particular industry; "the assembly plant is an enormous facility"

    I'd say it can be argued either way. The particular service is watching movies. But you can't watch more than 1 at a time, and if they have 18 different screens, that's not real particular as a whole. The particular function seems pretty clear, one, and only one movie.

    The thing is that it's probably not going to come up, because someone CCing is CCing, and therefor no one will know.
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Now as for the 2500 seating capacity.

    The problem here is two fold.

    One the law says facility therefor a movie theater including all the separate however many seat internal theaters would seem to be one big facility.

    Two there is no case law to clarify one way or the other.

    Therefor at this time my personal opinion and the opinion of the police officer that was my CPL class teacher is it is better to assume that the law is enforceable and that you must OC in a movie theater that seats more than 2500 within the building. He did agree that this was dumb ... but then he felt as we do that all pistol free zones are foolish.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Now as for the 2500 seating capacity.

    The problem here is two fold.

    One the law says facility therefor a movie theater including all the separate however many seat internal theaters would seem to be one big facility.

    Two there is no case law to clarify one way or the other.

    Therefor at this time my personal opinion and the opinion of the police officer that was my CPL class teacher is it is better to assume that the law is enforceable and that you must OC in a movie theater that seats more than 2500 within the building. He did agree that this was dumb ... but then he felt as we do that all pistol free zones are foolish.
    We have a theater that is posted as having a building capacity of 2500 (ironic how it's that number). There are multiple shops, as well as a huge atrium. No way it's 2500 seating capacity if the building capacity is only 2500.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    If it says building capacity is 2500 then you can CC as building capacity is based off of square footage. And it would not be possible for a building that has a fire code capacity of 2500 to seat same unless it was all one big theater room with no other rooms... which is not allowed due to the need for restrooms and hallways.

    If it says seating capacity 2500 then you had better not. however if it says neither "IE is not posted period" I go with the train of thought ... since I cannot count the seats and no one has told ... concealed is concealed ....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    Exactly.

    That's why there is no way that theater is a seating capacity of 2500.

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    Michigander wrote:
    In regards to a CPL holder, I have a really hard time buying into the idea that a theater with a bunch of 300 person or so theaters is a venue seating more than 2500, and therefor a CC free zone. It obviously is not, it's a bunch of little entertainment facilities on one premises.
    I believe the law views the entire building as one venue; without regard to dividers or rooms that separate the seating. Figure around 12 separate theaters within the overall complex, each seating 200 to 300 people... and you're at between 2,400 and 3,600 total seating capacity.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    We've had this discussion before. Celebration Cinemas in Kalamazoo has posted "Capacity 2500+" on their front door. When I asked them what their totalseating capacity was they didn't know and added it up for me. It came to somewhere around 2200, I don't remember exactly but I know it was much less than 2500. The next time I went there is when they had the "2500+" stickers up on the door.

    The only way they are getting that number is if they are counting the atrium/lobby areas. I suppose they could make the arugument that they can place removable seating in those areas for special events but it seems a bit spurious to me.

    Bronson
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    Bronson wrote:
    We've had this discussion before. Celebration Cinemas in Kalamazoo has posted "Capacity 2500+" on their front door. When I asked them what their totalseating capacity was they didn't know and added it up for me. It came to somewhere around 2200, I don't remember exactly but I know it was much less than 2500. The next time I went there is when they had the "2500+" stickers up on the door.

    The only way they are getting that number is if they are counting the atrium/lobby areas. I suppose they could make the arugument that they can place removable seating in those areas for special events but it seems a bit spurious to me.

    Bronson
    It's seating capacity, not lobby capacity. Interesting on the total number. Can you send me the verification of the total seating capacity? As a private theater they can ban weapons, but if the capacity is less than 2500 that section of the law doesn't apply. Let me know and I'll send an email and ask them about it.
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    Michigander wrote:
    Here is another one:

    a building or place that provides a particular service or is used for a particular industry; "the assembly plant is an enormous facility"

    I'd say it can be argued either way. The particular service is watching movies. But you can't watch more than 1 at a time, and if they have 18 different screens, that's not real particular as a whole. The particular function seems pretty clear, one, and only one movie.

    The thing is that it's probably not going to come up, because someone CCing is CCing, and therefor no one will know.
    In the absence of case law defining the word, the dictionary definition is used. I think we're all in agreement here.

    The problem is that "facility" is defined by the dictionary; whereas "entertainment facility" is not. But the words "entertainment" and "facility" stand on their own. In other words, the use of the word "entertainment" does not change the definition of what a "facility" is. A "facility", generally, refers to something that provides a particular function. And while a movie (entertainment) facility provides different types of movies, the function of the overall facility (building) is to provide entertainment. Therefore, the entire building, itself, is an entertainment facility... regardless of how it's segregated within the 4 primary walls.

    A casino provides different types of games in different rooms and on different floors... but the overall building is still a casino.

    This is how I would interpret it (roughly), if I were the AG.

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    ghostrider wrote:
    That's why there is no way that theater is a seating capacity of 2500.
    I agree that there's a huge difference between "building" capacity and "seating" capacity. That's good to note when viewing signs.

    This said, though... there are many theaters with seating capacities of 2,500+. So the theory doesn't work as well as the actual practice, in my opinion.

    I know there are smaller theaters in more rural areas. But in urban and suburban areas... we're pretty much SOL.

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    Veritas wrote:
    ghostrider wrote:
    That's why there is no way that theater is a seating capacity of 2500.
    I agree that there's a huge difference between "building" capacity and "seating" capacity. That's good to note when viewing signs.

    This said, though... there are many theaters with seating capacities of 2,500+. So the theory doesn't work as well as the actual practice, in my opinion.

    I know there are smaller theaters in more rural areas. But in urban and suburban areas... we're pretty much SOL.
    Maybe so, but when the theater itself puts a misleading sign on the door, I doubt it will hold up.

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    The whole 2,500 thing is just ridiculous to me. Think of it, I can't CC in a larger movie theater, but I can CC or OC in a place like the red wings parade with 1,000,000 people or a fireworks display somewhere. Or just any other place that has vast amounts of people. The logic is faulty, I don't understand it.

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    Generaldet wrote:
    The whole 2,500 thing is just ridiculous to me. Think of it, I can't CC in a larger movie theater, but I can CC or OC in a place like the red wings parade with 1,000,000 people or a fireworks display somewhere. Or just any other place that has vast amounts of people. The logic is faulty, I don't understand it.
    The "logic" behind gun free zones is faulty, none of it makes any sense.

    Now.. your mission, if you accept it, will be to convince the anti's to abolish ALL gun free zones.

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    Regular Member hopnpop's Avatar
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    Leader wrote:
    Generaldet wrote:
    The whole 2,500 thing is just ridiculous to me. Think of it, I can't CC in a larger movie theater, but I can CC or OC in a place like the red wings parade with 1,000,000 people or a fireworks display somewhere. Or just any other place that has vast amounts of people. The logic is faulty, I don't understand it.
    The "logic" behind gun free zones is faulty, none of it makes any sense.

    Now.. your mission, if you accept it, will be to convince the anti's to abolish ALL gun free zones.
    Sounds like the gauntlet's been thrown!
    No one has ever walked away from a gunfight complaining that he brought too much ammo.

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    Generaldet wrote:
    The whole 2,500 thing is just ridiculous to me. Think of it, I can't CC in a larger movie theater, but I can CC or OC in a place like the red wings parade with 1,000,000 people or a fireworks display somewhere. Or just any other place that has vast amounts of people. The logic is faulty, I don't understand it.
    I don't think the legislators do/did either. I'mfairly certainit was all aboutappeasing the sheeple.

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    State Researcher lockman's Avatar
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    A posted building capacity is usually mandated by fire/safety codes and you can not have a capacity of 2500+ and meet the code because there is no upper limit. What is the theaters legal total occupancy? and what is the fixed seating capacity are indeed two different issues.

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    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Generaldet wrote:
    The whole 2,500 thing is just ridiculous to me. Think of it, I can't CC in a larger movie theater, but I can CC or OC in a place like the red wings parade with 1,000,000 people or a fireworks display somewhere. Or just any other place that has vast amounts of people. The logic is faulty, I don't understand it.
    I don't think the legislators do/did either. I'mfairly certainit was all aboutappeasing the sheeple.
    I agree, which just further proves the point that anti's and logic don't mix. If they would ever just stop and think about what they are saying or look at the facts, instead of their personal fears, our jobs would be a lot easier.

    I'd just love to hear someone try and explain it to me though, it would be worth a good laugh.

    This might be a silly question but just for clarification purposes. Lets say you go to a concert or take any example you wish. The capacity of the room is over 2,500 but there are no actual seats (standing room only). Does the 2,500 seating capacity rule still apply if you want to CC? I haven't found an actual definition for how the law defines the term "seating capacity" Wouldn't that mean it would default to the definition in the dictionary? If so that would be "the number of people that can be seated in a vehicle or auditorium or stadium etc." Or have I just missed something?

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