• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Are : Hatchets , Tomahawks , or Hammers . . . . . legal to carry ?

Huck

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
646
Location
Evanston, Wyoming, USA
imported post

Citizen wrote:
You tomahawk guys are sissies.

Nothing beats an e-tool for a contact weapon.

:):p

Could be, but it's easier to pull out a tomahawk than to break out a e-tool.

The British were serious about e-tools as weapons. The e-tools that were issued to the British army in WWII had a attachment on the base of the handle for a spike bayonet. The only picture I've been able to find that shows that attacthment is here.

http://www.1stairborne.com/webgear.html
 

Alexcabbie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
2,288
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, United States
imported post

Speaking of sales, anybody ever seen those shop-at-home guys with deals like 200 folders in five styles plus a three-piece Samurai sword set with stand and maybe one biga$$ two-handed sword ? I love the way the one guy will slam a knife into a log full of other knives and half of them will come loose and fall out, and a couple times he has cut the %&*^ outta hisself while twirling a Samurai sword around and telling folks to "be careful". Wotta scream.
 

r6-rider

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
684
Location
az, ,
imported post

razor i gotta ask... whats up with the maltese? whats your reason behind it?
 

r6-rider

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2007
Messages
684
Location
az, ,
imported post

ha, i think im tracking... id post my reason for getting it tattooed but its a bit "discriminative" toward a certain religion. thats just me though;)
 

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
imported post

Everything yiou always didn't want'a konw 'bout the Maltese Cross. The old fortifications on Rhodes were built by the Hospitilar Knights... 'n I got to wander those old streets (barely alley ways) on a bike once upon a time. That symbol was much in evidence. The Templars came to a bad end. Read up on De Molay.

The Knights of St. John of Jerusalem gave Malta the heritage of the Maltese Cross. The eight-pointed cross is a symbol used by the knights to denote the eight obligations or aspirations of the knights.
The Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, now commonly known as the Knights of Malta, can trace their origin to a group of monks attached to a hospice built in the Holy Lands to aid travelers visiting the Holy Land. The monks were known as the Freres Hospitaliers de St. Jean de Jerusalem. Over time, the monks started offering armed escort to travelers as they passed through perilous Syrian territory. Following the success of the First Crusade, the Hospitallers evolved into a military order.
Around 1113, Pope Pascal II acknowledged the Hospitallers as a religious order. They were bound by the Augustinian rules of Chastity, Poverty and Obedience. However, more was expected of the members of the Order. They were required to abide by eight obligations or aspirations. These eight obligations were:


  1. live in truth;
  2. have faith;
  3. repent of sins;
  4. give proof of humility;
  5. love justice;
  6. be merciful;
  7. be sincere and whole-hearted; and
  8. endure persecution.
Noble aspiration indeed especially for individuals who came from very rich and powerful European families. Members of the Order wore a black habit and a camel-hair cloak of the same colour. A white eight-pointed cross covered their breast. The eight-pointed cross was also on their standard against a scarlet background. Eventually, as the Knights became known as the Knights of Malta, their symbol also became associated with Malta and is now known as the Maltese Cross.


Extracts from the St John Ambulance Australia Cadet Manual (3rd Edition) :
The eight-pointed cross first became the badge of the Order in the year 1023 when the Knights of St. John rebuilt their hospital in Jerusalem with funds donated by the merchants of the Republic of Amalfi. In gratitude for this support, the Knights adopted the emblem of the Republic as their own badge. The origin of the symbol is not known - one idea is that it represents four arrowheads.
The whiteness of the cross symbolises the purity of life. The St. John cross is often referred to as the 'eight-pointed cross', the 'White Cross' and the 'Maltese Cross'...
The Knights Hospitallers flag and battle dress emblem was a large white cross on a red background. The other famous military order, the Knights Templar wore a red cross on a white background until they were disbanded and their property and wealth passed to the Knights Hospitaller.

Jonathan Dixon 24 September 1999

The cross on the flag is known by several names, including the Maltese cross, the St. John cross and the 8-pointed cross. Concerning it's similarity to four arrowheads, in fact this is what it is thought to have originally been when it was the badge of the Republic of Amalfi. When the Order of St. John was formed during the Crusades with the support of Amalfi, they also took it as their badge, and since the Order's occupation of Malta, it has also been known as the Maltese Cross.
Jonathan Dixon, 14 June 2000

The two shapes of crosses don't present a case of evolution form one to the other. The 'elongated Iron Crosses', the sort of thing that in the Templar case gave rise to the St. George's Cross of England, were used by both the Templars and the Hospitallers as their banners and arms. I haven't come across anything about the white-on-black to white-on-red change of the Hospitallers, but several orders with some sort of descent from the Hospitallers use the 'inverted English flag' in some form to this day. At the same time, both then and now, the eight-pointed Maltese, or St. John Cross was used as a badge. It actually originated as the badge of the republic of Amalfi, and quite possibly was not originally a cross, but an emblem made up of four arrowheads. It was adopted by the Brotherhood of the Hospital in Jerusalem (even before the foundation of the Order) when the merchants of Amalfi re-purchased the site of the hospital established around 600AD and rebuilt it. At the formation of the Order (formally recognised in 1113), the monks wore black robes with the eight-pointed cross on the left breast. It seems correct to understand that the white cross on red was mainly used by the Knights of the Order in their military activities, and the eight-pointed cross while at the convent.
No doubt the use of the two symbols over the many years since varied, and was most likely at many times not well defined, I guess, but there is a lot of evidence of the use of both during the time when the Order of St. John had one of the strongest naval fleets of the Mediterranean, when the use of the eight-pointed, or as it became known, Maltese Cross on a red background became more common as a flag. I guess the modern Maltese civil ensign can be seen as a result of this.
In the 19th century, when Orders of Chivalry were a popular thing among many classes, the English Langue, or Tongue, of the Order was revived in England (having been eliminated in the time of Henry VIII and the following monarchs). This is the part of the history where I have come across many different interpretations, as this was at the time when the Order was least organised, having been driven from Rhodes by Napoleon. The current Sovereign Military Order of Malta is probably the most valid direct descendant of the original order, but this is the time where there is the most doubtful continuity. The English Langue was revived in the authority of a French group who claimed authority over the Sovereign Order at the time, but the Lieutenant Master later refused the acceptance of the proposed Protestant Priory in the Catholic Order. So, not being accepted as part of the international order, an English order of chivalry was formed independently in Britain, using the symbols of the order dating back to the crusades. The British order was later granted a royal charter by Queen Victoria, and the Monarch of England became the Sovereign Head of the Order. This lead to the addition of the lions and unicorns (the Queen's beasts) to the eight-pointed cross badge, and the addition of the Queen's Crest to first quarter of the white cross on red flag. In the meantime, the Order had been working to continue the tradition of the Hospitallers, who had also had a focus on Hospitals, as well as being a military order, and had established the St. John's Ambulance Association (teaching first aid), Brigade (doing first aid as an organised brigade) and established a hospital in Jerusalem, focusing on ophthalmology. The Order's full name is now "The Grand Priory of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem".
The work of the Order and it's foundations, particularly the Association and Brigade spread throughout the British Realm. The Association and Brigade (in Australia since 1987 called the Training Branch and Operations Branch) continued to use the Maltese Cross with lions and unicorn badge, whereas the white cross on red (with Queen's Crest) flag remains a symbol of the Order itself (which also now has Priories in many, mainly Commonwealth, countries). In Australia, the Ambulance services in general have taken up the eight-pointed cross, and so most people would associate it with ambulance services, and possibly with first aid. It is not surprising that the state ambulance services use the "Ambulance Cross", since the ambulance service is actually run by St. John in Western Australia and the Northern Territory, and were at one stage in NSW and South Australia. I have also heard, but have my doubts, that the Tasmanian service is now run by St. John.
Jonathan Dixon, 26 June 2001

I don't think there's precise documentation or even consensus on the topic of the development of the Maltese Cross. Most people seem to agree, though that it started in Jerusalem as a cross with on each arm a tips on each corner. Later forms seem to have added more and more body to the outer parts of the arms and the tips.
There is, however, also a theory that it isn't a cross at all, but a version of the emblem of Amalfi . The problem with this is that, since that emblem consists of entirely separate arrow-heads, one would expect all older illustrations of the cross to look like very arrows-like crosses, if crosses at all, which they don't.
What appears to be clear, though, is that the Templars took up the symbol already in use by the Hospitallers. So both orders had an eight-pointed cross (well, all orders to Jerusalem probably had), but the Templars wore it over their heart, or over their shoulder, whereas the Hospitallers wore the cross on their chest. There must have been some differences in colour, though, since the Hospitallers wore black, where the Templars wore white. I don't know how all this translates into their standards, though. Of course, if the cross did indeed develop over the centuries, then the eight-pointed cross of the Templars would not have been a cross of Malta, since they were destroyed when they left Cyprus, long before the Hospitallers on Cyprus, then Rhodes, then Malta, developed the current version of the cross.
Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg, 27 June 2001

The Hospitallers, the Templars, and the Teutonic Knights were all originally Crusading Orders, but with the fall of Acre in 1291, effectively lost their raison d'être, and ended up wandering around Europe. The Hospitallers, or Knights of St. John of the Hospital, were originally a group which cared for weary pilgrims at the Hospital of St. John in Jerusalem. After their incorporation as a military order, they continued to run the hospital, which gained them respect and prestige. After the fall of Acre in 1291, they moved first to Cyprus, then to the island of Rhodes (Rhodos) in 1307, then Malta in 1522-23. Their symbol was originally (1248) a white cross on black, changed in 1259 to a white cross on red.
The Templars, or Poor Knights of the Temple of Solomon, were originally a group which escorted and protected pilgrims while they were travelling through the Seljuk lands. They lived in a hostel near the Temple of Solomon, thus the name "Templars". They had many estates in Europe, and once Acre fell in 1291, retired to their European estates, and became involved in banking and diplomacy, which made them unpopular, to the point where King Philippe the Just of France burnt the Grand Master and two senior officers at the stake for supposed heresies. In 1312, Pope Clement V issued a decree suppressing the Order. Their symbol was a red cross on white.
As to the shapes of these crosses, the cross of the Hospitallers may have evolved into the present-day shape of the "Maltese Cross", but as to the Knights Templar, and the earlier Hospitallers, I've found that the shapes can be said to be "elongated" Iron Crosses.
Georges G. Kovari, 27 June 2001

The circle circumscribing the cross (red circle above) defines a regular octagon (dark blue). The beams from the center of the circle to the vertexes of the octagon define the bars of the cross. The indentation is half the side of the octagon, i.e. on a circle (black).
Željko Heimer, 8 June 2002

My information is that the Maltese Cross was originally the Cross of Amalfi - the merchants' flag. It was used because the SMOM was originally founded as a Hospitallers' Order for assisting pilgrims to the Holy Land, and the first hospice was set up in Jerusalem by Amalfi merchants - this was a wealthy trading empire at that time - in 1048, manned by Benedictine monks who added the white cross of amalfi to the black tunic of the Benedictine Order (the Amalfi merchants had already set up the Church of the Holy Sepulchre nearby in about 1020). Later they employed knights to protect pilgrims, the start of their evolution into the most successful and long-lived order of Christian fighting monks. Later the black ground to the white cross became a red ground, possibly because it was more visible on a battlefield.
Mike Singer, 20 August 2003

I don't know whether the Amalfi cross inspired the Maltese Cross, but as to the last claim, the Oxford archaeological guide, "The Holy Land," by the eminent Dominican archaeological-priest Jerome Murphy-O'Connor has this to say:
- The Church of the Holy Sepulchre was first built in 326-335 under Constantine the Great (p. 47).
- The Persians burned this church in 614, after which it was reconstructed by Patriarch Modestus (p. 48).
- The Fatimid Caliph Hakim totally leveled this church in 1009. "The poor community of Jerusalem could not afford repairs. It was not until the reign of Constantine Monomachus the the Imperial Treasury provided a subsidy for reconstruction (1042-8). It was not adequate for complete repairs however, and a great part of the original edifice had to be abandoned." (p. 49)

Nothing about the merchants of Amalfi, and the dates Murphy-O'Connor ascribes to the reconstruction provide no support for the theory that the church had already been (re)built by 1020. In fact, in 1020 Hakim was still very much in power and as crazy as ever; it was only under his son that an agreement was negotiated with the Byzantines under which the caliph gave permission for the church to be rebuilt. (Philip Hitti, History of the Arabs, p. 621).

However, the merchants of Amalfi do appear in connection with the restoration of the imperial hospice or hospital on the site now known as the Mauristan, south of the Holy Sepulchre. Hakim had also damaged this institution, and the Amalfians restored the buildings in about 1060 as well as building three churches, St. Mary of the Latins (c. 1070), St. Mary Minor (c. 1080), and St. John (c. 1070). Knights wounded in the assault on Jerusalem in 1099 were taken into St. John's Church, and those knights who stayed on to nurse their wounded comrades became the nucleus of the Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem (Murphy-O'Connor, p. 59).
So even though the dates given by Mike Singer don't appear to hold up, and the role of the merchants in creating the hospital and the order seems to be overstated, there is a documented connection that might provide a basis for the Hospitallers to have borrowed the Amalfi cross as their emblem.
Joe McMillan, 20 August 2003

The information on the development of the Maltese Cross as given above, lacks a consistent survey of the forms of the cross as used by the Order. The modern Almalfi symbol cannot be a guide to the origins as it is a recent adoption (20th Century) and owes its shape the the Maltese Cross as eventually adopted by the Order mid 1500s onward. In other words through the acceptance of myth, the modern Almalfi symbol is a copy of the modern cross of the Order, and not the other way around!
We know from the forms of crosses left on their buildings, the seals of the Order, and the coins of the Order, that the cross underwent a development from the simple Greek Cross, and also that this development in the early years was not uniform throughout the Order. However once settled in Malta, the present form emerges post the great siege (i.e. a cross made up of straight lines, forming four arrowheads meeting in the middle).
In the 12th and 13th Centuries the Order did not have a cross which looked anything like the symbol found on the Amalfi coins. See fig 5 on <www2.prestel.co.uk>. You would be at a loss to describe that symbol as four arrowheads. Much of the history of the cross by many authors seeks to defend the claims of earlier historians of the Order, who seem to be venerated due to the distance in time. Romance and myth replace real history.
Such claims as "My information is that the Maltese Cross was originally the Cross of Amalfi" give no explanation about the source and the date of the source! You cannot trace this claim back to the 12th & 13th Centuries!!! The source for the claim may be as late as the 18th century.
The full explanation of its origins is on <www2.prestel.co.uk>.
Michael Foster, 20 May 2004

There are records of the Maurus family (I have a recollection of "Comus Maurus" of Amalfi being involved in rebuilding work in 1021 (Christians were again allowed on the site after about 1020), and of it taking some hard bargaining to get approval; if my memory serves me right, there is a document in one of the priories in Jerusalem on this matter. Another member of this same family was involved in rebuilding work in Jerusalem about 1065+ (<http://www.newadvent.org>;) involving the hospital. There are reports of members of this family operating in Byzantia, and as was traders wont in those days, paying for public works there. Whether the hospitallers grew out of this is indeed uncertain, and cannot be proven either way. The 1021 rebuilding work must be viewed in the context of what was there at the time - there are reports of a number of chapels at key points over the site that had gradually replaced the Anastasis of Constantine after its destruction in the 7th century, and these are what the mad caliph destroyed (including damaging the Holy Sepulchre - <servus.christusrex.org> is interesting in some regards), and what seems to have been rebuilt. The restoration of the site to a single religious building was only started much later under Consantine Monomacus.
With regards to the Maltese Cross, it does appear that the order grew out of Benedictine monks who manned a Jerusalem hospice at least partly funded by the Amalfi Merchants. The popular idea is of these monks adding a white cross of Amalfi to their black tunics. The question is, is it true?
Certainly the order themselves (now working out of the Vatican - see <acismom.org>;) claim the cross was introduced by Fra' Raymond du Puy (or del Poggio), who was their second head after the blessed Gerard, but on the other hand the South African branch of the order state that the first evidence of usage is on a 2 Tari coin of 1567 (Amalfi created the Tari by the 11th century, based on current Arabic coinage in the Mediterranean). Make of that what you will, but there seems to be research (Nuns of Sixena?) that there were different crosses in use before the the 16th century. Still, it is all very vague. Dealing with the adoption of the cross by Amalfi, it is not uncommon for a small and unimportant (but still beautiful) town to look to past glories and adopt a symbol of its past power. Amalfi may have adopted the cross as an emblem late in the day, but "After is not because", as they say - it is not of itself any argument over whether the cross originated in Malta or Amalfi, and we cannot infer anything from it.
Mike Singer, 9 July 2004



_uacct="UA-613479-1";urchinTracker();
 

Alexcabbie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
2,288
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, United States
imported post

An alternate theory, possibly apocryphal, is that the "four arrowheads" were the symbol of the Knights of Poland and symblolized the medieval equivalent of the "circular firing squad" :celebrate
 

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
imported post

Alexcabbie wrote:
An alternate theory, possibly apocryphal, is that the "four arrowheads" were the symbol of the Knights of Poland and symblolized the medieval equivalent of the "circular firing squad" :celebrate
Had it not been for John III Sobieski in 1683... you could be writing that in Arabic.
 

Alexcabbie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
2,288
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, United States
imported post

Sonora Rebel wrote:
Alexcabbie wrote:
An alternate theory, possibly apocryphal, is that the "four arrowheads" were the symbol of the Knights of Poland and symblolized the medieval equivalent of the "circular firing squad" :celebrate
Had it not been for John III Sobieski in 1683... you could be writing that in Arabic.
Not to metion Kocziusku (whose statue stands in Patterson Park in Baltimore) who was a great help in our Revoloution. I did not mean to malign the brave Poles who have stood at the crossroads of tyranny for centuries (and been overrun more than once). I was more referring to the Babs Mikulski types. :)
 

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
imported post

So... Mikulski walks into a bar witha frog on her head..

Barkeep sez: "Where'd you get that?"

Frog sez: "It started out as a wart on my ass 'n kept growin'!"
 

Alexcabbie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
2,288
Location
Alexandria, Virginia, United States
imported post

I actually lived in BMore for a few months (until a gang tried to break in and I was obliged to kick the crap outta a couple muggers) right in Babs's neighborhood. One night I am at the corner tavern and in she walks, yelling: "OKAY GODAMIT WHO WNATS A F&*^%IN' BEER!??" I mean she is the daughter of longshoremen and tradesmen, and I love the people of Baltimore, they are not a bunch of pretentious asses; but boy can they ever be suckered by the DemonRatz. As a matter of fact, Pelosi is NOT from Frisco, she is from Baltimore's Little Italy. I think it was her dad who was Mayor D'Allessandro back in the 60s. HOW COULD THE CITY THAT GAVE US OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM DO THIS TO US?? Funny, Lexington and Concord are in Massachussetts Land O' the Kennedy Clan, too. WTF??
 

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
imported post

D'Allessandro Jrwas mayor in the late '50's into the '60's and her grandfather Tommy Sr. had been mayor since the dawn of time. She never was a 'Hon' tho... 'n neither was Bab's. Babs is more a product of Al Lannon than anything else... 'n so is Pelosi.

His commiebastard sonofacommiebastardAl Jr. is a neighbor... here. Still a commiebastard. Small world. I have a feelin' the Feds cut him a deal 'n put him here. There's a couple guys whoI think are here under the Witness Protection Program. One's from NYC 'n walks with a limp. 'Off the beaten path don't decribe this area. My uncle lived on Curly St, just off Eastern Ave. 'Used to play in Patterson Park when I was little... when my mom would go to visit. 'Never adopted Baltimore ways... (Thank God) that 'accent' or their politics. I've had a strange... convoluted journey to becomin' a cowboy. I don't just 'live here'... this is HOME! 111 deg today... a bit warm.
 
Top