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Thread: official statements from LE regarding OC

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    i ran into a couple cops when i was having lunch today. OC popped into my mind. i asked one of them his take on a plain clothed citizen OCin. he said he would stop him, check serial and verify permit for handgun. he said if it checked out OK he would send the guy on his merry way. while doin this i was sending a text, which also sparked another idea. why not get this stuff on tape (video) and upload to a central youtube account or somethin similar. i believe doing this would raise the knowledge considerably for both citizens and LE all around on what to expect and what is legal. i would like to do anything i can (legally and without too much expense) to make OC more commonplace, resulting in less fear of being harrassed or wrongfully arrested and also for a safer community. ive read that the top 10 states with the least crime all had common CC/LOC laws (except one). makes sense to me.

    guys, let me know what you think. im willing to create and manage a "shared" account for everyone to upload their personal experiences either while OCin or just asking an LE how he would respond to it. lets start a movement in a new way.

    btw 1st post.

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    upioneer wrote:
    i ran into a couple cops when i was having lunch today. OC popped into my mind. i asked one of them his take on a plain clothed citizen OCin. he said he would stop him, check serial and verify permit for handgun. he said if it checked out OK he would send the guy on his merry way. while doin this i was sending a text, which also sparked another idea. why not get this stuff on tape (video) and upload to a central youtube account or somethin similar. i believe doing this would raise the knowledge considerably for both citizens and LE all around on what to expect and what is legal. i would like to do anything i can (legally and without too much expense) to make OC more commonplace, resulting in less fear of being harrassed or wrongfully arrested and also for a safer community. ive read that the top 10 states with the least crime all had common CC/LOC laws (except one). makes sense to me.

    guys, let me know what you think. im willing to create and manage a "shared" account for everyone to upload their personal experiences either while OCin or just asking an LE how he would respond to it. lets start a movement in a new way.

    btw 1st post.

    First off, welcome to OCDO!! I would suggest adding where you are located to your information since laws differ state to state.

    The bolded statement made my the officer really bugs me. The officer would stop a plain clothed citizen just because he is openly carrying a firearm? Without RAS the officer would be in the wrong in this case. Even if your state requires a permit to own/carry a handgun he cant just stop whoever he wants and "check serial"

    With regards to getting LEOs and other public officials on camera promoting OC, its a good idea, in theory, but i think would be very difficult.


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    An officer does not have the right to detain you for a legal activity alone like open carry. He certainly cannot disarm you except for his safety while you are being detained, which requires probable cause. Wisconsin is figuring all this out now.

    Now, if the officer was polite and asked for my permit I would be OK with it (and I'm legally required in MN to provide it when asked). Past that, anything that happens isn't ok. If he isn't polite about it or treats it as a Terry stop, I'll be speaking with his boss.

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    yea i hear you, but in his defense i summed up our conversation. his first response was "call the cops" because he misunderstood me. he was also in a rush to grab food so i didnt want to exactly quote him word for word but i feel his general approach is he is OK with it and i dont think he would bother unless there was a call for MWG. thats just my take. im not tryin to get anyone (LE) in trouble, or make anyone answer up for their statements if they are incorrect. im just asking opinions on having an account with how LE in general would or do respond to OC (on video). for those interested or already do OC, this would be useful info. obviously i am, thats why im on the site. but being so new to me id rather know a bit more than i do b4 strappin my piece to my hip and goin about my day. i also figure, hopefully never needed, but if any one of us had a case, the footage might help in court. at the minimum to prove you attempted to best your knowledge of the law and expected consequence for abiding (to win the jurors over). idk where im goin with this, just tryin to make some kind of movement and gather opinions on it.

    btw im in CA in or near LA county.

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    ok gettin a lil off topic here. my point is trying to show a bigger audience (gupafillion users on youtube) of citizens and LE alike that open carry is in fact legal and should be accepted. the officer i spoke with today may have been wrong with his quick response but at least i got a good vibe from him and he seemed to understand that it is legal to OC. whatever happens inbetween i dont care about as long as the LEO is aware its legal. i wouldnt mind providing id/permit if thats all it came down to, i show ID every time i buy a drink or make a credit card purchase so whats the difference. but coming across officers who arent aware or dont fully understand the law is what i want to avoid. this is my only concern. spreading knowledge and the fastest means possible for our benefit.

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    there are many uses to collaberating and posting under 1 account all of our experiences. another example...i look up 10 videos with run-ins with the cops. 2 of them resulted in confiscation of firearm and charges. the other 8 were simple checks or responds to MWG but went smooth and no harrassment. based on this knowledge i would know i have a 20% chance of trouble and could base my future decisions off that. of course your attitude, attire, city, the LEO, etc all come into play. just dumbing it down because im not trying to write 35k page document on the benefits of having a repository to referrence.

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    You can't expect any cop in CA to know the law regarding open carry since most departments do not know the law, and I would bet they do not teach officer cadets open carry laws at the academies.

    There is no permit requirement for open carry in CA as long as the weapon is unloaded and not concealed. The law only allows them to check that the weapon is in fact unloaded; it does not allow them to run the serial number. That is an unlawful search and violation of the 4th Amendment. If the officer wishes to perform a 12031(e) check on the firearm he must immediately return the firearm after he ascertains the unloaded status of the firearm. If he does not, it is an illegal seizure, as he has no lawful reason to detain the weapon any further.

    If he takes it and runs the serial number, it is an illegal search, since he cannot run the serial number unless he has probable cause to believe the weapon is stolen or involved in a crime, and the mere possession of a weapon does not constitute reasonable cause for the search.

    The only legal way (though perhaps somewhat of a legal gray area unless there is case law) for them to run the serial number would be for the officer to memorize it and run it after he dismisses you. Since the serial number is probably located in plain view he could easily do this. Some people put opaque tape over their serial numbers to protect the number from damage (since it would be unlawful to possess a firearm with a damaged or obliterated serial number) and that would keep the serial number out of plain view and it would be unlawful for the officer to remove the tape without probable cause or a warrant for a search.
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    upioneer wrote:
    ok gettin a lil off topic here. my point is trying to show a bigger audience (gupafillion users on youtube) of citizens and LE alike that open carry is in fact legal and should be accepted. the officer i spoke with today may have been wrong with his quick response but at least i got a good vibe from him and he seemed to understand that it is legal to OC. whatever happens inbetween i dont care about as long as the LEO is aware its legal. i wouldnt mind providing id/permit if thats all it came down to, i show ID every time i buy a drink or make a credit card purchase so whats the difference. but coming across officers who arent aware or dont fully understand the law is what i want to avoid. this is my only concern. spreading knowledge and the fastest means possible for our benefit.
    No one is trying to arrest you when you are buying a drink or paying with a credit card. THAT'S the difference!

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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    upioneer wrote:
    ok gettin a lil off topic here. my point is trying to show a bigger audience (gupafillion users on youtube) of citizens and LE alike that open carry is in fact legal and should be accepted. the officer i spoke with today may have been wrong with his quick response but at least i got a good vibe from him and he seemed to understand that it is legal to OC. whatever happens inbetween i dont care about as long as the LEO is aware its legal. i wouldnt mind providing id/permit if thats all it came down to, i show ID every time i buy a drink or make a credit card purchase so whats the difference.but coming across officers who arent aware or dont fully understand the law is what i want to avoid. this is my only concern. spreading knowledge and the fastest means possible for our benefit.
    No one is trying to arrest you when you are buying a drink or paying with a credit card. THAT'S the difference!
    yea i agree. but i also stated if thats all it came down to, meaning show ID/permit then be on your merry way then it really isnt a big deal. and for those people out there who feel violated for showing ID to an officer then i believe you got more behind it than just this OC issue. because like i said you willingly show id to the bartender, to the bouncer, to the person at the cash register, etc. showing id is showing id, regardless of who its being shown to. now if this guy is trying to arrest me this is a completely different case. and im sure he would arrest me if i showed ID or not.

    anyways i dont think my idea is coming across the way id like. and so far no1 seems to like the idea of having a documented footage repository. its ok. hope the best of experiences to you all

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    Please pardon me here, but I have a question for you good people of California. I do know that you may open carry a firearm as long as it is unloaded. But this begs a question or two along with a few comments.

    This is so foreign to me since I live in Virginia where you can OC to your heart's content with your sidearm fully loaded and ready to go.. yes, even in Condition One for single action semis.

    But why does California have this law since an unloaded gun is less useful than a hammer? It just become "show" with no "go". And if you can OC unloaded, can you carry a loaded magazine at the same time?

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Please pardon me here, but I have a question for you good people of California. I do know that you may open carry a firearm as long as it is unloaded. But this begs a question or two along with a few comments.

    This is so foreign to me since I live in Virginia where you can OC to your heart's content with your sidearm fully loaded and ready to go.. yes, even in Condition One for single action semis.

    But why does California have this law since an unloaded gun is less useful than a hammer? It just become "show" with no "go". And if you can OC unloaded, can you carry a loaded magazine at the same time?
    Sacramento passed a law in '67 or '68 as a reaction to the Black Panther Party members carrying loaded weapons. Signed into law by Gov. Ronald Reagan.

    You can carry loaded mags but they must be visible as well (such as on a belt pouch). Case law in CA has defined magazines as an integral part of a firearm so you can get busted for concealed without a permit if you are open carrying with a loaded mag in your pocket. Loose rounds in a pocket are fine as are moon clips/speedloaders since they are not an integral part of the firearm. It is also perfectly legal to open carry a shotgun with a SpeedFeed stock that is loaded with shells as long as the shotgun's magazine is unloaded. That is based on case law but I forget the name of the case. Some guy was convicted of having a loaded weapon in his vehicle but it was overturned on appeal because there were no shells in the magazine or chamber.
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    why not get this stuff on tape (video) and upload to a central youtube account or somethin similar. i believe doing this would raise the knowledge considerably for both citizens and LE all around on what to expect and what is legal.

    I've got a better idea. If the cops do something illegal, sue their butts and put it on PACER for the world to see.

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    wewd wrote:
    You can't expect any cop in CA to know the law regarding open carry since most departments do not know the law, and I would bet they do not teach officer cadets open carry laws at the academies.
    Will you agree that YOU are required to know & obey ALL the firearm laws in CA.?

    If YOU don't know one of the laws, do you expect the police to say " Thats ok, we have too many laws for you to know them all. " ? Do you honestly think they are going to just let you go if you violate the firearm laws of that fine state?

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    Leader wrote:
    Will you agree that YOU are required to know & obey ALL the firearm laws in CA.?

    If YOU don't know one of the laws, do you expect the police to say " Thats ok, we have too many laws for you to know them all. " ?* Do you honestly think they are going to just let you go if you violate the firearm laws of that fine state?
    Any discussion about who should know what law is irrelevent, since the courts have consistently ruled that ignorance of the law is no excuse, unless you are a cop, in which case not knowing the law is a perfectly acceptable excuse. But I think you miss my point. What I meant to say was, that the police are mostly ignorant of the law, and due to poor training and education they make mistakes and assumptions, which inevitably lead to unnecessary encounters and, sometimes, very unfortunate encounters. And those are just the good cops. The bad cops are the ones that know the law but choose to violate your rights anyway.
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    Any discussion about who should know what law is irrelevent, since the courts have consistently ruled that ignorance of the law is no excuse, unless you are a cop, in which case not knowing the law is a perfectly acceptable excuse.

    That's not true at all. In a 1983 case, if the law is clearly established, the cop can expect to fork over some hefty money if they break it knowingly or not.

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    upioneer wrote:
    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    upioneer wrote:
    ok gettin a lil off topic here. my point is trying to show a bigger audience (gupafillion users on youtube) of citizens and LE alike that open carry is in fact legal and should be accepted. the officer i spoke with today may have been wrong with his quick response but at least i got a good vibe from him and he seemed to understand that it is legal to OC. whatever happens inbetween i dont care about as long as the LEO is aware its legal. i wouldnt mind providing id/permit if thats all it came down to, i show ID every time i buy a drink or make a credit card purchase so whats the difference.but coming across officers who arent aware or dont fully understand the law is what i want to avoid. this is my only concern. spreading knowledge and the fastest means possible for our benefit.
    No one is trying to arrest you when you are buying a drink or paying with a credit card. THAT'S the difference!
    yea i agree. but i also stated if thats all it came down to, meaning show ID/permit then be on your merry way then it really isnt a big deal. and for those people out there who feel violated for showing ID to an officer then i believe you got more behind it than just this OC issue. because like i said you willingly show id to the bartender, to the bouncer, to the person at the cash register, etc. showing id is showing id, regardless of who its being shown to. now if this guy is trying to arrest me this is a completely different case. and im sure he would arrest me if i showed ID or not.

    anyways i dont think my idea is coming across the way id like. and so far no1 seems to like the idea of having a documented footage repository. its ok. hope the best of experiences to you all
    upioneer, I don't mean to be snippy, but it's a very big deal. I am also new to the forum and idea of open carrying. I am doing research like a madman by reading as many of these posts as I can, followed up by my own verification of the laws, penal codes, ordinances, even blogs, etc. Many peoplehere for the most part know what they are talking about...from experience. When I first started reading about two weeks ago (or so it seems) I felt EXACTLY the same as you. The problem is when you are open carrying (or anything else for that matter)anda LEO approaches youits ALMOST NEVERan issue ofifthatsALL IT COMES DOWN TO. Their job is to find out what laws you are breaking so they can arrest you, not be your friend. You really must know the laws and be prepared to cite them and be "steadfast in your resolve" so you don't inadvertantly incriminate yourself for something you know absolutely nothing about. Check out youtube for an excellent video on why you should tell a LEO absolutely nothing at all (that isn't legally required). Don't have the link handy but look for it here or there and you will find it. Sorry man, I don't mean to preach, but the more I've read and learned, the more I've discovered I need to read and learn more before taking that big, rightful step.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    upioneer wrote:
    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    upioneer wrote:
    ok gettin a lil off topic here. my point is trying to show a bigger audience (gupafillion users on youtube) of citizens and LE alike that open carry is in fact legal and should be accepted. the officer i spoke with today may have been wrong with his quick response but at least i got a good vibe from him and he seemed to understand that it is legal to OC. whatever happens inbetween i dont care about as long as the LEO is aware its legal. i wouldnt mind providing id/permit if thats all it came down to, i show ID every time i buy a drink or make a credit card purchase so whats the difference.but coming across officers who arent aware or dont fully understand the law is what i want to avoid. this is my only concern. spreading knowledge and the fastest means possible for our benefit.
    No one is trying to arrest you when you are buying a drink or paying with a credit card. THAT'S the difference!
    yea i agree. but i also stated if thats all it came down to, meaning show ID/permit then be on your merry way then it really isnt a big deal. and for those people out there who feel violated for showing ID to an officer then i believe you got more behind it than just this OC issue. because like i said you willingly show id to the bartender, to the bouncer, to the person at the cash register, etc. showing id is showing id, regardless of who its being shown to. now if this guy is trying to arrest me this is a completely different case. and im sure he would arrest me if i showed ID or not.

    anyways i dont think my idea is coming across the way id like. and so far no1 seems to like the idea of having a documented footage repository. its ok. hope the best of experiences to you all
    I hate showing my ID to buy a drink and when I use my credit card. I find it highly offensive to liberty. Not so much with credit cards because that isn't actually a law (I don't think at least). But when it comes to purchasing alcohol I'm pretty sure it's a law that you have to show ID. So in that case it's not willfully identifying yourself, it's more or less coerced. If a business owner asked for ID on the condition of doing business then your compliance is willful, if the business owner is forced by law to see ID before a sale is made then it is not willful.

    I'm not sure on the laws in California but most states do not require you to carry ID on your person if you are not operating a motor vehicle. There is no federal law requiring you to carry ID either. In most states the only identification you are required to give is your legal name. And while it will more than likely speed things along if you give the officer a government endorsed ID card it is not required (in most states).

    Like the previous post said the police are not your friends. Most aren't looking to jam you but if they do arrest you they will use everything they can to get a conviction, so why give them ammunition if you can avoid it?

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    wewd wrote:
    You can't expect any cop in CA to know the law regarding open carry since most departments do not know the law, and I would bet they do not teach officer cadets open carry laws at the academies.

    There is no permit requirement for open carry in CA as long as the weapon is unloaded and not concealed. The law only allows them to check that the weapon is in fact unloaded; it does not allow them to run the serial number. That is an unlawful search and violation of the 4th Amendment. If the officer wishes to perform a 12031(e) check on the firearm he must immediately return the firearm after he ascertains the unloaded status of the firearm. If he does not, it is an illegal seizure, as he has no lawful reason to detain the weapon any further.

    If he takes it and runs the serial number, it is an illegal search, since he cannot run the serial number unless he has probable cause to believe the weapon is stolen or involved in a crime, and the mere possession of a weapon does not constitute reasonable cause for the search.

    The only legal way (though perhaps somewhat of a legal gray area unless there is case law) for them to run the serial number would be for the officer to memorize it and run it after he dismisses you. Since the serial number is probably located in plain view he could easily do this. Some people put opaque tape over their serial numbers to protect the number from damage (since it would be unlawful to possess a firearm with a damaged or obliterated serial number) and that would keep the serial number out of plain view and it would be unlawful for the officer to remove the tape without probable cause or a warrant for a search.
    Another thing to remember, the LEO can only perform a 12031(e) check if you are in either an incorporated city, or in a prohibited area or unincorporated territory.

    So if you are out in the middle of nowhere, in unincorporated territory, and shooting is legal, they are not legally allowed to check if your weapon is loaded as it is legal for it to be loaded.

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    for whatever it is worth, two of my buds are in their 1st or 2nd year as lapd. they both said open carry topic was briefly skipped over in training/academy. so i would believe most lapd officers arent very aware of open carry laws and would handle as if you are committing a crime. just my $.02

    im beginning to think it is not even worth the time and effort.

    on another note, i remember reading somewhere that a loaded mag is considered a loaded firearm. if that is the case, what is the point of open carry if u cannot have a loaded mag ready whether it be in a pouch or pocket? and if u cannot carry a loaded mag then im not interested in wearing an expensive paper weight in a holster.

    what do u guys think?

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    I think u should use 'you' even though it is old fashioned.

    Many academy instructors deliver the material in a very slanted approach. They don't talk 'teacher to student' they talk 'cop to cop.' Whatever works on the street is the way to go. The fine points of the law, naah.

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    upioneer wrote:
    on another note, i remember reading somewhere that a loaded mag is considered a loaded firearm.* if that is the case, what is the point of open carry if u cannot have a loaded mag ready whether it be in a pouch or pocket?* and if u cannot carry a loaded mag then im not interested in wearing an expensive paper weight in a holster.
    You can carry a loaded mag as long as it is also carried openly, as in a belt pouch. People vs. Clark clarified what "loaded" means and basically as long as the ammunition is not in a position from which it could be readily fired (either in the chamber, or in a magazine inserted into the weapon, or in a tubular magazine integral to the weapon), the weapon is unloaded. Ammo attached to the weapon but not in a position to be fired is also fine, like a buttstock ammo pouch or sidesaddle. You could duct-tape a magazine to the side of your pistol and it would be fine. A loaded mag in your pocket, however, is no-go.

    A loaded magazine concealed in your pocket is illegal because the courts have ruled that magazines are integral to the function of a firearm and are considered part of the firearm, and may not be concealed. Loaded speedloaders, moon clips, stripper clips, as well as loose rounds are all fine to conceal since they are not integral to the function of the firearm.
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