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Thread: No Open Carry on your own Property in Adams County, CO

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    Article II, Section 13 of the Colorado Constitution States:
    Right to bear arms. The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called in question; but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons.

    That last clause; "but nothing herein contained shall be construed to justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons" is WHY Colorado is an Open Carry State. There was a strong belief that an honest person carried their weapon for the world to see when our State was founded.

    Of course, it has been over 100 years since the founding of Colorado as a State and like the slow erosion of our majestic Rocky Mountains the Colorado Bill of Rights (Article II) has been slowly eviscerated.

    I learned of the destruction of our rights first hand when two cars unexpectedly and aggressively charged down our one quarter mile long rural driveway in Adams County, Co. I had reason to be defensive as I had been recieving threats from our estranged oldest daughter for some days prior that my wife and I would loose our children. (That's an interetsting story all by itself). I grabbed my shotgun, held it high above my head for the approaching vehicles to see, and they continued their advance.

    There were two vehicles, a white subcompact and a what looked like a pickup truck with a camper shell. I have four "keep out" signs posted at the entrance to our driveway that they just scooted past.

    When the trailing vehicle was about 100 yards away I realized the vehicle was the Adams County Sheriff's. I lowered my gun so that I was holding it with two hands, left hand on the barrel and right hand on the stock with the barrel pointed up and to the left away from everyone and into an open field. The first question I asked when the Deputy leaned out behind his door was whether the Deputy had a warrant, when the response was No, I informed him he was trespassing and should leave.

    As the Police reports document, I never pointed my gun at anyone, I never verbally threatened anyone, I never advanced my position, I simply stood deep within my own property holding my gun. I was arrested the next day, charged with one count of felony menacing on a Police Officer and two counts of Felony menacing on the occupants of the first vehicle (Which turned out to be Social Service case workers --- they never spoke to me and I never spoke to them).

    To emphasize, I stood still against the advancement of multiple vehicles holding my gun for all to clearly see, I never threatened and I was arrested, jailed and charged with crimes where the minimum mandatory sentence is 10 years.

    Here in Adams County our officials have found a loop hole in the 4th amendment to the U.S Constitution, Sections 7 & 13 of the Colorado Constitutions and our state trespass and affirmative defense statutory laws. If an official of the county views you with a gun and they advance on you until they have placed themselves in fear for their lives then you go to jail and have no rights.

    I realize how absolutely bizarre this sounds. I must have done something to deserve such aggressive treatment. Yet, the facts speak for themselves and I have been publishing those facts on my web site: http://RuralJustice.com

    I am writing this because I need some help. Does anyone know of an aggressive attorney in Colorado (Denver area) who is an expert with gun laws, trespassing laws and criminal defense?? I could use some referals as it recently became clear to me that my attorney is not an excellent advocate.



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    Perhaps one of these guys will be able to help. I have not used them personally. Let us know if one of them decides to help with your case.

    Anthony Fabian:
    http://www.ajfabianlaw.com/

    Rob Grossman:
    http://www.robgrossman.com/

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    Regular Member zach's Avatar
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    I posted on another CO website in hopes that someone may be able to add more info.

    This sounds like BS!!(not on your part)

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    I like Jim Bull:

    Bucholtz & Bull, PC
    8369 SouthPark Lane, Ste. A
    Littleton, CO 80120-5617
    Tele: 303.778.8822
    Fax: 720.482.8481

    He was (or is?) Rick Stanley's attorney. He knows his stuff and he is aggressive when the situation requires it.

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    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    This is why we need jury nullification. Of course, this situation should never have happened in the first place. Best of luck.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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    You stood up for your rights. That is a menacing situation for some peace officers. Are there any other charges against you? Did the deputy or sheriff ever order you to put down the shotgun?

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    I think a good attorney would take your case - ON A CONTINGENCY BASIS - because any probable legal action seems to be headed away from you and directly at the S.O. It's been over 6 months since your arrest and Colorado law requires that you receive a trial within 6 MONTHS. Sounds like a clear case of official harrassment.

    The burden of proof is on theCounty.Unless someone in your "extended family" is a criminal attorney - tell them to butt out !This is a simple case of ruffled feathers on the part of the Sheriff's Department. It appears that they have managed to drag this thing out in order to "punish" you for not showing them the "respect" they obviously thought they were intitled toduring their "warrantless calvary charge" onto your property. Ofcourse they were on "official business" - who isn't when they are on the clock. It doesn't matter. The UPS driver is also on official business, but he enjoys access to your property at your pleasure.

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    Regular Member Squeak's Avatar
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    STAND FIRM my friend! I wish I could help. You have people in your corner!! I'm here in Washington rooting for you!!

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    I seriously doubt the DA will proceed with those charges. When did this happen? You haven't mentioned why they (social workers) were coming to your house, and that is an important factor. If investigating allegations, they have the right to come to your door, signs notwithstanding.

    If the cop's statement said you never pointed the weapon, there is no case on menacing. You have the right to have a firearm on your person on your property, period. I assume you are seeing a lawyer, and if the facts in the case are as you report, I believe the charges will be dropped. Keep us informed of the outcome and good luck!.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    WarmWind wrote:
    Does anyone know of an aggressive attorney in Colorado (Denver area) who is an expert with gun laws, trespassing laws and criminal defense?
    Perhaps Rocky Mountain Gun Owners could give you a referral.

    http://www.rmgo.org/

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    They came to our house based on false allegations of child abuse (mental, physical NOT sexual) from our estranged 18 year old daughter. She had moved out of State and had not been in our home for many months when she called this complaint in. She had put our three minor children in contact with adults who we knew and had excellent reasons to believe were dangerous (they had threatened my wife's life and our children lives years ago). When my wife found out what was going on we cut all communication between our estranged daughter and her siblings until she agreed to our contact rules, she refused and then retaliated with these charges.

    You may read the complete description at: http://ruraljustice.com/Why.html

    This was not the first time she attempted to use Social Services and the Sheriff's Department to force us to do what she wanted. I do not want to paint her in too bad of a light (She is my daughter, I love her), we had some serious injuries in our family in 2005 that impacted all of us significantly. Unfortunately, something inside of her heart broke and I continue to pray for her.

    I do have an attorney and I think that I had a bad one which contributed significantly to this case taking as long as it has and proceeded as far as it has. I am in the process of changing attorneys now. How do you know if your attorney is any good? That is a question I never asked myself before because I have never needed a criminal defense attorney.

    I have been doing extensive research on attorneys, I have had some help from posters here with their suggestions and I am evaluating them all. I will not make the same mistake I made when I hired my current attorney.... out of desperation. My skill at asking questions of attorneys to evaluate their expertise specific to my needs has greatly improved now that I have been through this process.

    Thanks, I will keep this post updated.

    Peace,
    Dave

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    In fact I did get a referral from RMGO for an attorney and that is one of the attorneys I am evaluating.

    Dudley Brown at RMGO was very quick to provide a couple of referrals. The RMGO organization is top shelf.

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    WarmWind wrote:
    Do Police Officers and Social Service workers have the right to trespass without a warrant?
    According to Boston T. Party in his highly excellent book, You & The Police,

    "... cops may trespass onto your land and observe you from the undeveloped or unoccupied portion of property which lies outside the curtilage of a dwelling."

    You never explained WHY the thugs came in the first place. It appears CPS has an issue with you and the cops were escorting CPS. If the cops were there for official business, you'll get nowehere trying to claim the cops were trespassing.

    You said that you "stood still against the advancement of multiple vehicles holding my gun for all to clearly see," and that you "grabbed(your) shotgun, held it high above (your) head for the approaching vehicles to see,"

    That doesn't bode very well for your case as an approaching vehicle won't ever be considered as a threat of grievous bodily harm (GBH), and waiving a shotgun above your head could certainly be considered brandishing.

    Perhaps you could plea bargain down to misdemeanor brandishing with a deferred sentence. I know you probably won't like this suggestion, claiming you are going to fight the chargestooth, fang, and claw, but it seems to me that you screwed up big time.

    And you need to consider what kind of jury you'll get and just how crooked and corrupt the Judge will be (e.g. Rick Stanley case). Americans have become fat, dumb, lazy, ignorant, naive, mambi-pambi poly annas. Your chances of a gun friendly jury (all 12) is unlikely.And it is doubtful any Judge will allow you to even mention the Constitution or jury nulification.

    You might like to know that Colorado passed a law that states "it is the intent of the general assembly that a person be able to raise self-defense as an affirmative defense in any case regardless of the means rea which is an element of the charged crime."

    It requires the court to give a self-defense jury instruction in any case in which there is some evidence before the court of self-defense. Whether or not a self-defense affirmative defense will help you, I don't know. Ask your attorney.

    AUGustin

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    WarmWind wrote:
    They came to our house based on false allegations of child abuse... You may read the complete description at: http://ruraljustice.com/Why.html
    Oh wow! You already have a website explaining the situation.

    Dave, I'm totally on your side, so don't take this suggestion wrong. You might want to take down your website to prevent the prosecution from obtaining it. I believe it could be used against you in court. Basically you are trying to win your case in the Court of Public Opinion. Does your attorney know about your website? The risk vs. benefit may not be in your favor.

    AUGustin

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    Dave,

    First, let me reiterate my opinion that your ongoing claims of trespassing are ridiculous.

    Most people don’t seem to realize that trespassing in Colorado is only a class 1 petty offense (with some exceptions)! You go on and on and on and, ad nauseaum about trespassing, specifically you are accusing the cops of second degree trespassing. You’ve posted the text of C.R.S. 18-4-503 on your website. DID YOU READ IT? If so, did you completely miss the word “Unlawfully”?

    (a) Unlawfully enters or remains in or upon the premises of another which are enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders or are fenced; or”

    The cops didn’t unlawfully enter your property as they were there on official business, which is not trespassing by any stretch of the imagination, and they promptly left when asked to. They didn’t need a warrant to enter your property, period. A warrant is required for your arrest or search of your property, but there are many exceptions (called exingencies).

    You called 911 to report the police committed a petty offense, and then filed a written complaint. Forget it, man. The cops didn’t trespass and even if they did, that is no defense for any alleged criminal conduct by you. Grow up and get over it.

    You claim that “the entire case hinges upon the answer to a few key questions:”

    Not one of your key questions will have anything to do with your case. I doubt a Judge will allow any of it to be heard. The case will hinge solely around YOUR actions, not those of the cop or social workers.

    Next, I’ve looked at the assault in the first degree law.

    1) A person commits the crime of assault in the first degree if:

    (e) With intent to cause serious bodily injury upon the person of a peace officer or
    firefighter, he or she threatens with a deadly weapon a peace officer or firefighter
    engaged in the performance of his or her duties, and the offender knows or
    reasonably should know that the victim is a peace officer or firefighter acting in
    the performance of his or her duties; or


    I think you’ll prevail in court regarding this count. They may be able to successfully show that you did, in fact, threaten the cop with a deadly weapon by displaying it in the manners you did, but to show you had the intent to cause harm is another matter altogether.

    The menacing charges I’m not so sure about.

    (1) A person commits the crime of menacing if, by any threat or physical action, he or she knowingly places or attempts to place another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury. Menacing is a class 3 misdemeanor, but, it is a class 5 felony if committed:

    (a) By the use of a deadly weapon or any article used or fashioned in a manner to
    cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon; or


    (b) By the person representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with
    a deadly weapon.


    THIS LAW IS PURE BS !!!

    Essentially Colorado has outlawed self-defense. The reason why firearms are the great equalizer is because the presence of a firearm causes fear in the assailant and therefore discourages further assault/robbery/rape/etc.

    But that is the current law. This is why I’m suggesting you try to plea down to misdemeanor brandishing. You see, what the DA has done to you is typical of their tyranny; it’s called shotgun charges, meaning that they throw a bunch of charges against a defendant hoping at least one will stick, or hoping that the defendant will plea down to the more realistic charge if the other plethora of bogus charges are dismissed.

    Unfortunately the Colorado menacing law is very vague (by design, of course – tyrants love vague laws).

    According to the law, it is apparently illegal to put your hand on a holstered weapon to let an assailant understand that you are ready and able to draw and fire. It is also apparently more illegal to simply tell the assailant that you are armed. It's TOTALLY ridiculous, but it is the existing law in Colorado.

    If you can’t plead down to brandishing, try for disorderly conduct as it is also just a misdemeanor.

    18-9-106. Disorderly conduct.

    (1) A person commits disorderly conduct if he or she intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly:

    (f) Not being a peace officer, displays a deadly weapon, displays any article used or fashioned in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon, or represents verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm.

    So disorderly conduct by displaying a deadly weapon in a manner to cause a person to reasonably believe that the article is a deadly weapon, or by representing verbally or otherwise that he or she is armed with a deadly weapon in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm is a class 2 misdemeanor.

    In your case, you saw approaching vehicles and waived a shotgun above your head. This, in my opinion, might very well constitute brandishing.

    For some odd reason I can’t find the actual text of Colorado’s brandishment law. But basically brandishing a weapon is drawing a weapon and waving it around. If you never remove your gun from its holster or otherwise touch it, it is not brandishment. However, if you remove it from its holster, and hold it in a manner by which you can immediately fire it, and someone is threatened or intimidatedby that action, then you are guilty of brandishment.

    Now if the weapon is a long gun such as a rifle or shotgun, the picture becomes blurred. Some long guns have a sling and some don’t. I consider a sling very similar to a pistol’s holster. If the rifle or shotgun is being carried by the sling as opposed to holding it in your hands, that isn’t brandishing. However, if you un-sling the weapon, and hold it in a manner by which you can immediately fire it, and someone is threatened or intimidatedby that action, then you are guilty of brandishment.

    You keep claiming that you were simply holding your gun in front of you with the muzzle pointed down, what you call non-threatening. Sorry friend, but that dog won’t hunt. You probably were holding the gun by its grip with your trigger finger just centimeters away from the trigger. An experienced shooter can shoulder, sight and fire a weapon held in this manner in very short order.


    What you should have done was retreat with your firearm into your home when you first saw the vehicles approaching, and either locked the gun away in a safe or stowed it in hiding. You would have then waited for the inevitable knock on the door. At that point you should have kept the door closed and locked, demanding either an arrest or search warrant, and keeping your trap shut.

    But nooo….

    Instead of retreating into the safety of your castle, you stood there holding a loaded firearm in what the cops will call a manner calculated to cause alarm, insisting that they were trespassing despite being informed that they were there on official business, and you even refused them from turning around and insisted that they back out. WTF???

    Did you think that they would simply head back to the donut shop and forget all about you and their official business? Realize that you were probably recorded by their in-car camera, which can and will be introduced as evidence against you. Have you gotten to the discovery process yet? Do they have film? Are you holding the pistol grip of your gun, or perhaps the receiver (much better for your defense).

    At the very least you should have kept the firearm politely slung at your side, which is almost just as ready to deploy as a ready low position if you are proficient in transitioning from side slung to shoulder ready.

    Or, better yet, you should have laid the gun on the ground and stepped away from it.

    The police report states that the cop ordered you to put the gun down ! But you didn’t !!!?@%*& arrgggghh… What is wrong with you dude? Do you want to be a martyr in a corrupt court system? Breaking a law that you don’t like and being prosecuted for it is no way to overturn a bad law. That happens in the state legislature, not in a criminal courtroom.

    The cop will claim thathe ordered you to drop the gun becausehe wasin fear, and further that because you refused to comply,his fears were justified. If the cops never even ordered you to disarm they would have a much harder time claiming fear. But they did. And they probably have it on video.

    FULLY UNDERSTAND that I don’t agree with the Colorado laws!!! In my opinion, we should be able to wear, carry, and hold any legal firearm while in the presence of law enforcement. PERIOD. Including when being detained under reasonable articulable suspicion. The cops should only be allowed to disarm you when under actual arrest.But that is just my personal opinion and not real life.

    Next, you keep claiming self-defense – that you “perceived a threat when (you) saw two vehicles kicking up a dust trail on the County Road turn onto (your) driveway.”

    Good grief, man. That is not what the law will consider a threat of grievous bodily harm. People drive vehicles down other people’s driveways all the time. And the question will be that if you perceived such an imminent and grievous threat why didn’t you retreat into your house?

    As much as I HATE cops I do think the responding officer acted in a very reasonable manner by de-escalating the situation. Most time when the cops arrive on a scene they seriously escalate things. If the social workers were not present and in the line of fire, I’ll bet good gold that the cop would have drawn down on you and if you continued your defiance, well Hoss… you’d need a few corks to plug all them holes. You are damn lucky to be still breathing. So now you can say that the Adams County Sheriff saved not only your wife’s life, but yours as well

    Good luck trying to claim that your intentions were all defensive. The cops are there to protect and serve, SUPPOSEDLY. No juror allowed to sit by the prosecution will believe the cop posed a threat to you. My recommendation is that you forget all this self-defense BS.

    Ditto with the Constitutional right to bear arms defense. You have a right to free speech, but not to the extent that you shout fire in a crowded movie theater. And you have a right to keep and bear arms, but not, according to current Colorado law, in a threatening manner.

    Finally, you claim that your puny little case (I know it ain’t a small thing to you and your family) will “have a significant impact to our gun heritage and culture.” I doubt that. Regardless of the outcome, the unconstitutional laws will remain on the books and the New World Order’s enforcement minions will continue to violate their oaths of office.

    I very definitely thing you need a new/good attorney. Along with a complete attitude adjustment.

    AUGustin

    “Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?” Galations 4:16


  18. #18
    Regular Member Anubis's Avatar
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    Augustin wrote:
    Perhaps you could plea bargain down to misdemeanor brandishing
    I have read the relevant CRS and could find no definition or even mention of "brandish" or "brandishing". Please correct me if I am wrong, but it therefore appears impossible to be charged with "brandishing" in Colorado.

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    Anubis wrote:
    Augustin wrote:
    Perhaps you could plea bargain down to misdemeanor brandishing
    I have read the relevant CRS and could find no definition or even mention of "brandish" or "brandishing". Please correct me if I am wrong, but it therefore appears impossible to be charged with "brandishing" in Colorado.
    I couldn't find anything in the C.R.S. about brandishing either.

    I did say, "For some odd reason I can’t find the actual text of Colorado’s brandishment law" and "If you can’t plead down to brandishing, try for disorderly conduct as it is also just a misdemeanor."

    Rocky Mountain Gun Owners website states, "Of open carry concern (Laws with the potential for LEO mischarge/abuse): Brandishing, threatening and disorderly public conduct laws trespassing” but it doesn't give a citation number for brandishing, just disorderly conduct, menacing, and trespassing.

    It seems that people accused of brandishing are charged with felony menacing, as was the case in October 2008 in Grand Junction:

    http://www.postindependent.com/artic...810229957/1001

  20. #20
    Regular Member entartet17's Avatar
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    I dont think there is a state brandishing law. However, local municipalities may have such laws. I just looked up Aurora's which is:

    Sec 94-144

    (c)Display. It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly, recklessly, or negligently display, flourish, or brandish any illegal or dangerous weapon, including but not limited to those enunciated in subsection (a) of this section, in such manner as to reasonably cause fear of bodily injury to another person.
    "There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them. It went by in the Night of Depression, singing songs of freedom" -- Garet Garrett, The Revolution Was (1938)

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