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Thread: CCW Holder Shoots Person In Next Stall

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    Florida Woman Shot in Leg by Bathroom Stall Neighbor
    Friday, July 10, 2009

    TAMPA, Fla.— Authorities say a bullet from a gun that was accidentally dropped injured a Tampa woman sitting in a bathroom stall.

    Police say the bullet hit 53-year-old Janifer Bliss in the lower left leg. She was taken to a hospital with minor injuries.

    Bliss was sitting on the toilet in a hotel bathroom when a woman in the next stall accidentally let her handgun slip out of her waist holster. The weapon discharged when it hit the ground.

    Police say the gun belonged to 56-year-old Debra Monce who has a concealed weapons permit.

    The case has been referred to the State Attorney's Office to determine if any charges will be filed.



    OC'ers have the same issues as CC in this regard, I posted this on Utah Concealed Carry also.





    I'll bet this turns out to be a case of a poorly fitting holster, or removing the firearm from a holster and dropping it while on the john. One of my major peeves is the cheap pouch type holsters that will not safely provide any retention without the strap snapped up or a cheap IWB (clip type) without a belt. When we decide to carry, WE THE CARRIER has the absolute obligation to invest in equipment that is SAFE during all daily routines and activities, this irritates me to tears, as I see people in guns stores buying cheap holsters that will not retain a firearm without the strap firmly in place with the intention of using them for CC.

    There was even a discussion on this board (I think?) of carriers stating that they remove a pistol from the holster while using the john.



    Folks a good holster and belt combination does not require you to remove your firearm while doing routine daily activities.



    Anyone else have any additional info on this?



    Steve
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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Another good reason for OC and gunbelts. I try to avoid public stalls... but women don't have an option. I hang the gunbelt 'n holster around my neck.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    .45acp wrote:
    [SNIP]
    Folks a good holster and belt combination does not require you to remove your firearm while doing routine daily activities. [SNIP]
    I have a slight issue with your statement in the context of restroom stalls.

    I carry a SERPA paddle holster and I have a very thick, high quality leather belt specifically designed for wear with holsters. Because I carry an HK USP full size .45 ACP (a tactical actually) the center of mass is so far above the belt-line that when I drop my drawers to use a toilet I have to do something with my pistol or it will flop over muzzle up and then the weight of it will take it to the floor butt-first. Although the firearm has a safe design and the sear prevents it from firing in the de-cocked position, even if it falls on the hammer, I'd rather not trust it.

    To be safe, I remove the entire paddle holster (with the pistol retained inside of it) and place it inside of my pants between my legs until I'm done.

    Standing up at a urinal is different. I don't need to do anything special to retain safe control of my firearm during that activity.

    Not every holster design works well for all of your daily business, especially if you're CC'ing at work and have to use a work restroom where concealment is a priority. (This makes using a stall necessary at all times for men and a dropped gun, even without a discharge, could bring unwanted attention to you.)

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    I wonder more what gun that was...seems that all modern firearms are drop-safe and tested as such, and as soon as something like that happens they all are recalled and retrofitted for free (think Ruger)...

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    shad0wfax wrote:
    .45acp wrote:
    [SNIP]
    Folks a good holster and belt combination does not require you to remove your firearm while doing routine daily activities. [SNIP]
    I have a slight issue with your statement in the context of restroom stalls.

    I carry a SERPA paddle holster and I have a very thick, high quality leather belt specifically designed for wear with holsters. Because I carry an HK USP full size .45 ACP (a tactical actually) the center of mass is so far above the belt-line that when I drop my drawers to use a toilet I have to do something with my pistol or it will flop over muzzle up and then the weight of it will take it to the floor butt-first. Although the firearm has a safe design and the sear prevents it from firing in the de-cocked position, even if it falls on the hammer, I'd rather not trust it.

    To be safe, I remove the entire paddle holster (with the pistol retained inside of it) and place it inside of my pants between my legs until I'm done.

    Standing up at a urinal is different. I don't need to do anything special to retain safe control of my firearm during that activity.

    Not every holster design works well for all of your daily business, especially if you're CC'ing at work and have to use a work restroom where concealment is a priority. (This makes using a stall necessary at all times for men and a dropped gun, even without a discharge, could bring unwanted attention to you.)
    ShadowFax, I have Serpa but have not carried it much...I do carried a 5" 1911 most days (Sometimes 4" 1911) and use a holster/belt from a custom makerthat does not have a a strap or thumb break. I can assure you that I don't need to unholster to use the john. I do however maintain control of the firearm and keep my pants up around knees and calfs.Your mileage may vary.

    I stand by my statement, you should not need to unholster during routine daily activities, in my opinion

    I'll have to experiment with the Serpa a little more and see what the hoopla is all about.




    Steve


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    I have the opposite take on this - I make a point of unholstering and putting the gun on the toilet, to avoid this very problem.

    -ljp

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    Legba wrote:
    I have the opposite take on this - I make a point of unholstering and putting the gun on the toilet, to avoid this very problem.

    -ljp
    I'd just remove the gun with the holster. I don't like the idea of unholstering in a public place unless it's needed for SD. But my Plan Asolution is to **** at home, after breakfast

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    i wish they would say what type of pistol it was. i know i could throw my sig around all day and it wont "accidentally" go off. im guessing internal hammer? or do revolvers have safeties that prevent the hammer from pushing forward even if its not cocked back?

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    r6-rider wrote:
    i wish they would say what type of pistol it was. i know i could throw my sig around all day and it wont "accidentally" go off. im guessing internal hammer? or do revolvers have safeties that prevent the hammer from pushing forward even if its not cocked back?
    Yeah, I wish they had stated what pistol was involved. Most modern revolvers have a transfer bar system that will not allow the hammer to fall completely unless the trigger is pressed completely back. I say most because I'm sure there are some that don't have this safety feature. The older single actions revolvers were carried with the hammer on an empty chamber for this reason.



    Of course any mechanical devices can fail, which drives the most important firearm safety rules “All Guns are Loaded” and Never point a Weapon at Something You Don’t Want to Destroy”. This was a failure to maintain control of the firearm, plain and simple.



    I would guess that in spite of all the testing done…If you drop a firearm enough times, from enough different position you can eventually make one “Go Bang”, hence see rules above.



    Steve
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    I too, wish the handgun was identified in greater detail. We don't even know if it was a revolver or pistol.

    Nearly all modern handguns have passive safeties of some kind that should prevent the handgun from firing UNLESS the trigger is depressed or manipulated. It is far more likely that a discharge happened when the trigger was depressed as the user tried to catch the gun when it fell from the holster (don't do this, let it fall to the ground!), or the trigger got pulled when something entered the trigger guard (belt, clothing, finger, etc.) when the gun was being reholstered.

    Safeties can fail, however. I recall an incident a couple of years ago when a police officer getting an MRI took his cocked and locked 1911 semi-auto into the MRI room and tried to put it on a cabinet in that room. Bad idea. The hugely powerful magnetic field snatched the gun from his hand, where it flew across the room and smacked the MRI tunnel. The gun discharged one round harmlessly into a wall, even though the hammer was still cocked, the grip safety was still engaged (not being gripped by anybody) and the manual safety was also still engaged. The slide didn't cycle, of course, and the empty cartridge case was still in the gun. Subsequent examination suggested that the powerful magnetic field defeated whatever mechanism should have kept the firing pin in place while the impact with the tunnel allowed the firing pin to strike the primer with enough force to touch off the round. Details: http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/178/5/1092

    None of that extraordinary stuff was present here, though. Unless the gun was really old or broken, I think my money is on accidental pulling of the trigger trying to catch a falling gun or something getting in the trigger guard when trying to reholster it. Perhaps a more complete report will emerge.

    I carry a SIG P229 in a Blackhawk CQC holster using an extremely still belt from AKJ Concealco. The holster NEVER flops around because the belt doesn't allow it to do so. Muzzle aways points down in such situations due to the belt, and the gun never falls out of the holster due to the retention mechanism of the Blackhawk holster.


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    I never have to take off my holster. I just unzip my pants. I never need to take a number two when I'm out and about. If I would have to, I'd just take my gun out of my holster, remove the magazine, and hold it while I'm usin the john

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    I understand that the woman was shot in the thigh. Just for discussion would/should the charges againt the woman with the gun be different if the bullet had not hit anyone? What should she be charged with since the bullet did hit someone else. What if it had struck the ladywith the gun? I have some mixed feelings on this and don't know how I would answer the questions. Most of our laws are based on the end result rather than intent such as if you try to shoot someone and get lucky and miss you aren't charged with murder so you are sometimes better off being a bad shot.

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    Basically, the woman should be required to OC in a proper retention belt holster from now on, and be civilly liable. IMO. Criminal negligence is hard to presume from the scant information available.

    Edit: As a broader issue, if the gun did in fact discharge upon hitting the floor, it brings up another point: although I oppose any "safe gun" registries or the like, at this point in time I think many if not most people assume that guns will not fire if dropped, and so it's reasonable to apply liability to manufacturers who make guns which can be shown to discharge if dropped when in a state of good maintenance.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Everybody's assuming the claim that the 'gun dropped' is truthful. What if it was a ND? Booger picker on the bang switch whie takin' it out of the holster? Whole different liability issue. Holstered guns on belts are rather awkward when 'loose'. I'm already wonderin' if it was a Glock.

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    As some will recall, A very similar thing happened to me. Assuming what the story says is true, what little they say anyway, I think it firmly goes to show how important it is to have utterly drop safe carry guns with good holsters. This is not emphasized nearly enough by the gun community, and that goes double for here since this forum is one of the strongest supporters of being armed everywhere.

    Things like a guilty conscience, thousand dollar rides to the hospital, 70,000 dollar hospital bills, and legal liability are very good reasons to spend the extra 250 dollars to get a good gun and a good rig to carry it. Or at LEAST carry with an empty chamber if you're too poor to afford a good system.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:[SNIP]
    Things like a guilty conscience, thousand dollar rides to the hospital, 70,000 dollar hospital bills, and legal liability are very good reasons to spend the extra 250 dollars to get a good gun and a good rig to carry it. Or at LEAST carry with an empty chamber if you're too poor to afford a good system.
    [/quote]

    +1

    I agree. Carry the safest firearm possible in the manner possible that still allows you to defend yourself.

    If this lady was carrying an older model revolver with a hammer and no transfer bar with one in the tube she was wrong. You don't carry old six-shooters with six rounds in 'em, you carry 5 and on the empty cylinder...

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    I'm not a revolver owner, but I've been told some may be carried with the hammer locked down between rounds in the cylinder.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
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    Modern revolvers use transfer bars and don't have a sharp spur on the strike-face of the hammer, thus making them much more drop-safe. Older revolvers have a sharp spur on the strike-face of the hammer and no interlock to prevent the hammer from impacting the primer if the revolver is dropped.

    I've never heard of locking between cylinders before. Old-western carry is 5 rounds in a 6-shooter on an empty chamber. New revolvers can carry full cylinders with the hammer down safely.

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    shad0wfax wrote:
    Modern revolvers use transfer bars and don't have a sharp spur on the strike-face of the hammer, thus making them much more drop-safe. Older revolvers have a sharp spur on the strike-face of the hammer and no interlock to prevent the hammer from impacting the primer if the revolver is dropped.

    I've never heard of locking between cylinders before. Old-western carry is 5 rounds in a 6-shooter on an empty chamber. New revolvers can carry full cylinders with the hammer down safely.
    The NAA Minis can be locked between the rounds. Those are the only ones I know of but with that I consider my 22 WMR as safe to carry as any gun around even with no trigger guard.

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    I use reproduction the reproduction 1860 colt Army and the 1858 Remington new Army revolvers. Both have a slot between the cylinders to rest the hammer. You do not have to only load 5 rounds out of the six.

    shad0wfax wrote:
    Modern revolvers use transfer bars and don't have a sharp spur on the strike-face of the hammer, thus making them much more drop-safe. Older revolvers have a sharp spur on the strike-face of the hammer and no interlock to prevent the hammer from impacting the primer if the revolver is dropped.

    I've never heard of locking between cylinders before. Old-western carry is 5 rounds in a 6-shooter on an empty chamber. New revolvers can carry full cylinders with the hammer down safely.

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    I am with everyone else on this it dosent matter what kind of gun it is,it could be a glock with a hairline trigger,if it is not properly holsterd with a good holster and on a good pants/or gunbelt then its just neglegant.

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Another good reason for OC and gunbelts.
    Also, another good reason for Condition Three carry, CC or OC.



    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Everybody's assuming the claim that the 'gun dropped' is truthful. What if it was a ND? Booger picker on the bang switch whie takin' it out of the holster? Whole different liability issue.
    Excellent point. There is GREATmotivation for the woman to lie in an attempt to evade consequences of her failure to safely handle a lethal weapon.

    One thing for sure, though. We know she is a goof with a gun.

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    Here is an idea. Anyone ever practice drawing while seated on the john with pants around ankles? You gotta think the threat of defending yourself could manifest even in this situation.

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    Walkeraviator wrote:
    Anyone ever practice drawing while seated on the john with pants around ankles?You gotta think the threat of defending yourself could manifest even in this situation.
    A crap shoot?

    Could happen.

    Absolutely....

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Everybody's assuming the claim that the 'gun dropped' is truthful.* What if it was a ND?* Booger picker on the bang switch whie takin' it out of the holster?* Whole different liability issue. Holstered guns on belts are rather awkward when 'loose'. I'm already wonderin' if it was a Glock.
    That's what I'd guess. Firearms don't just 'accidentally' go off. Especially not when dropped.

    And why all the Glock hate whenever there is a ND?

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