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Thread: Does carrying openly on a motorcycle require one to have a CPL?

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    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

    RCW 9.41.050 (link above) states that a CPL is required for a person to carry a firearm "in any vehicle". When riding a motorcycle, I am not IN any vehicle. Do I need a CPL?

    My guess is that the answer is 'yes'.

    ---------------------------------------------

    ALSO, RCW 9.41.050 states:
    A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol (and...)
    Technically, this means that, if you do not have a CPL, you are not allowed to unload your gun and lock it in the trunk when you have left your CPL at home. RIGHT?? Don't you love how they make it so difficult?
    IBTL

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

    RCW 9.41.050 (link above) states that a CPL is required for a person to carry a firearm "in any vehicle". When riding a motorcycle, I am not IN any vehicle. Do I need a CPL?

    My guess is that the answer is 'yes'.

    ---------------------------------------------

    ALSO, RCW 9.41.050 states:
    A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol (and...)
    Technically, this means that, if you do not have a CPL, you are not allowed to unload your gun and lock it in the trunk when you have left your CPL at home. RIGHT?? Don't you love how they make it so difficult?
    The motorcycle issue has been discussed quite a bit and the correct answer is ... no one wants to be the test case. The courts would probably rule that in and on have the same meaning of "operating or riding as a passenger", car, motorcycle, truck, bus, etc.

    I don't quite understand your reading of the second RCW. If you do not have a license all you have to do is unload your pistol and then you can put it into your vehicle. Some of the OC guys who have chosen not to get CPLs just stop at the car, unload, and then get in.

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    heresolong wrote:

    I don't quite understand your reading of the second RCW. If you do not have a license all you have to do is unload your pistol and then you can put it into your vehicle. Some of the OC guys who have chosen not to get CPLs just stop at the car, unload, and then get in.
    I did this for several months before I got my CPL. Open the door and be discreet about it, if you do it correctly noone is the wiser. Helps if you have a serpa type holster.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    sudden valley gunner wrote:
    heresolong wrote:

    I don't quite understand your reading of the second RCW. If you do not have a license all you have to do is unload your pistol and then you can put it into your vehicle. Some of the OC guys who have chosen not to get CPLs just stop at the car, unload, and then get in.
    I did this for several months before I got my CPL. Open the door and be discreet about it, if you do it correctly noone is the wiser. Helps if you have a serpa type holster.
    Most people I have talked with that practice non-CPL carry in a vehicle just don't place a round in the chamber when they are walking around.

    All they have to do then is pop the mag, get in the car, and go. The less handling that is forced to be in public the better.

    The legislative intent of the law is for "officer safety" during a traffic stop, but that's stretching the concept past the point of credulity. For one, a criminal isn't going to follow it, and even someone who IS following it to the letter could load a magazine and chamber a round in a mere 1 or 2 seconds.

    None of the states that allow loaded car carry without a permit have experienced any increased amount of officer deaths or attacks that would warrant this law. They would soon change their laws to similar of our own if they did.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Yep its what I do, Israeli carry as I heard it referred, I tend to still carry Israeli, although I am changing my mind on that.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    heresolong wrote:
    ...I don't quite understand your reading of the second RCW. If you do not have a license all you have to do is unload your pistol and then you can put it into your vehicle. Some of the OC guys who have chosen not to get CPLs just stop at the car, unload, and then get in.
    I wouldn't know how to unload my gun, without first getting into the car. Unholstering your gun in plain sight, outside your car is a very risky action.

    When I have needed to lock my gun in my car because I am going someplace I cannot take a gun, I usually just sit in the trunk. I can reach behind my hip and unholster the gun and place it in the trunk, out of sight. Then, I just lock it in a lock box.

    You are right, I was vague when I wrote that second part of my initial post. It was late and I was tired.
    IBTL

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    I wouldn't know how to unload my gun, without first getting into the car. Unholstering your gun in plain sight, outside your car is a very risky action.
    Ah, got it. I have only had to do this infrequently, but I just opened the car door, unholstered the gun (they already know you have it if you are openly carrying), unload it while facing into my car and standing behind the open door, and then climb in. Since I'm facing the car when I handle the gun and since I am partially screened by the door, I never had any issues.

    I think it would take a very brave prosecutor and a very weird judge to find you guilty of brandishing when the law is clear that you have to unload it prior to getting in your car.

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    Thanks.

    Not so familiar with the car-carry laws. Do you then re-holster and get in the car? Or must you put the gun in a case that is separate from the driver's access while driving? Trunk, etc?
    IBTL

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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    Thanks.

    Not so familiar with the car-carry laws. Do you then re-holster and get in the car? Or must you put the gun in a case that is separate from the driver's access while driving? Trunk, etc?
    You may re-holster, keeping in mind that the gun must remain "clearly" visible. You may also go so far as to keep the loaded magazines in a mag holder on your person, which I would advise, should ALSO be clearly visible.

    You may also case your unloaded firearm, or place them in a closed backpack. Neither require a lock.

    IANAL, this is just my interpretation of the RCWs.

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    FMCDH wrote:
    You may re-holster, keeping in mind that the gun must remain "clearly" visible. You may also go so far as to keep the loaded magazines in a mag holder on your person, which I would advise, should ALSO be clearly visible.

    You may also case your unloaded firearm, or place them in a closed backpack. Neither require a lock.

    IANAL, this is just my interpretation of the RCWs.
    If the unloaded gun is in a holster on the right side of your body and the cop approaches you on your left, is it likely that he would argue that the gun was not "clearly" visible. After all, he wasn't on THAT side of your body.

    Having the gun on your person (unloaded, OC, no CPL) is still legal? No case off-body required?
    IBTL

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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    ShooterMcGavin wrote:
    If the unloaded gun is in a holster on the right side of your body and the cop approaches you on your left, is it likely that he would argue that the gun was not "clearly" visible. After all, he wasn't on THAT side of your body.

    Having the gun on your person (unloaded, OC, no CPL) is still legal? No case off-body required?
    Now we start getting into the non-defined definition of "concealed" within Washington state law.

    It has been strongly held amongst the carriers here in Washington, that unless the firearm were not plainly visible, were you to step out of the car, it may be considered concealed. Keeping in mind that Washington does not hold to the draconian definitions that many states do on the matter.

    Basically, if a clear or perceived attempt was made by a person to conceal the firearm by or in their clothing or apparel, it would be considered concealed.

    If the firearm is simply not plainly visible due to angle of sight or obstruction of a center console or seat belt strap (for example), but would otherwise be plainly visible were the person to move away from such obstruction, it would NOT be concealed as per the legislative intent of the law. This is assuming the person were carrying the pistol in a standard OTWB type holster.

    That is my understanding.

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    FMCDH wrote:
    Now we start getting into the non-defined definition of "concealed" within Washington state law.

    It has been strongly held amongst the carriers here in Washington, that unless the firearm were not plainly visible, were you to step out of the car, it may be considered concealed. Keeping in mind that Washington does not hold to the draconian definitions that many states do on the matter.

    Basically, if a clear or perceived attempt was made by a person to conceal the firearm by or in their clothing or apparel, it would be considered concealed.

    If the firearm is simply not plainly visible due to angle of sight or obstruction of a center console or seat belt strap (for example), but would otherwise be plainly visible were the person to move away from such obstruction, it would NOT be concealed as per the legislative intent of the law. This is assuming the person were carrying the pistol in a standard OTWB type holster.

    That is my understanding.
    I agree. The key word (in other portions of the RCW relating to concealed weapons other than firearms and also in the Cassad case use the words "furtive attempt to conceal."

    A firearm in plain view in a holster on the opposite side of your body from an officer may be obscured from his view, but that obstruction of view is not furtive. If you made some effort to twist your body showing him your week side and then made another effort to pull a shirt or jacket over the firearm the moment you saw the officer, that would be one way of furtively attempting to conceal.

    I think for the purposes of the original poster wanting to open-carry on a motorcycle without a CPL his best bet would be to get a holster that allows him to perform a "retention load."

    In other words, while on the bike have the firearm completely unloaded (nothing in the chamber) and no magazine in it. Carry the magazine in a magazine pouch. Then, to avoid warranting alarm for the safety of others when he dismounts from his motorcycle, he can simply put the magazine into the firearm from a retained (holstered) position without racking the slide or putting one in the chamber. (As others have mentioned, this is "Israeli Carry") Train to rack the slide as you draw if you carry this way.

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