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Thread: Bellevue Square Mall...TOLD to CC

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    So I just got back from Bellevue Square and had to get all this info down. Here's my story:

    My g/f and I have been out since lunch time in Kirkland and I'm OC'ing today. We run a couple errands and grab lunch at the local Fred Meyer without anyone saying anything or even noticing I have my sidearm. Then we decide to drop by Bellevue Square for a nice walk and some shopping indoors since it's so hot outside. After about 20 minutes we end up in Victoria Secret cause they had a 7 for $25 sale. (I know, but she came with me into Champs so it's only fair). We're in there for about 10 minutes and I notice a lot of these girls start to notice that I'm OC'ing. It bothers me for a second, but then I ignore them and keep on watching as my g/f is doing her thing.

    Out of the corner of my eye I notice three mall security guards circling the front of the store and I knew at any moment they would come up to me and say something. Two decide to approach me and one remained outside. The guard who started talking was named Phil, not sure of the other one since he didn't say a thing, thus I assumed Phil was the ranking guard at the moment.

    Here's our conversation:

    Phil: "Hello sir."
    me: "Hi, how ya doin'?"
    Phil: "Good. Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to conceal your weapon."
    me: "Why is that? I thought Bellevue Square was okay to OC in."
    Phil: "Well it's not. Do you have your CPL on you?"
    me: "Yes I do. I talked to the Bellevue PD recently and they said OC is perfectly fine."

    Phil: "Well under state law, IF YOU HAVE YOUR CPL ON YOU, THEN YOU MUST CONCEAL CARRY. You can't OC with the license on you. I have one too and I believe it says that on your CPL license."


    So I take out my CPL and start reading and NO WHERE does it state this.

    me: (At this point in my head I'm thinking "are you serious?") "So you're saying I can't OC when I have my CPL license on me in the state of Washington? Is that correct?"


    Phil: "That is correct. It's not a good idea to OC because you could be arrested if someone feels threatened. Suppose an old grandma feels threatened and screams when she sees your weapon, then you could be arrested for that."

    At this point I wuss out and conceal my pistol because I don't want to get kicked out or waste my time with someone who doesn't seem to know the law.

    me: (I'm wearing a polo shirt and it does not conceal very well) "Well it's concealed but this shirt won't do it very well since I had planned on OC'ing all day."

    Phil: "That's good enough for now. Wear a loose shirt next time you're in the mall carrying and it'll be better."

    The three guards walk away and I wasn't confronted again for the period I was there.


    I seriously feel like my rights were violated right now. Could someone please clarify if the guard had any grounds to say what he said? Is it okay to OC in Bellevue Square? I'm thinking of contacting the head of security at Bellevue Square and finding out their policy on OC'ing. Does anyone know or who I should contact to find out?

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    The guard clearly has no clue what he's talking about. But is the area where you were private property? If so, you can be asked to leave for any reason. If it's in public, no one can make you cover your weapon.



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    I was in the VS store when it happened. Does that count as private property? Or is that part of Bellevue Square which I believe to be public space?

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    If you were in a store, that's private property. I have no idea if the square is public.

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    I was in the store and no one said or asked me anything. Does each store have their own carry policy? If so, then it's just a pain the butt to figure out which allow it and which don't.

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    Magix wrote:
    So I just got back from Bellevue Square and had to get all this info down. Here's my story:

    My g/f and I have been out since lunch time in Kirkland and I'm OC'ing today. We run a couple errands and grab lunch at the local Fred Meyer without anyone saying anything or even noticing I have my sidearm. Then we decide to drop by Bellevue Square for a nice walk and some shopping indoors since it's so hot outside. After about 20 minutes we end up in Victoria Secret cause they had a 7 for $25 sale. (I know, but she came with me into Champs so it's only fair). We're in there for about 10 minutes and I notice a lot of these girls start to notice that I'm OC'ing. It bothers me for a second, but then I ignore them and keep on watching as my g/f is doing her thing.

    Out of the corner of my eye I notice three mall security guards circling the front of the store and I knew at any moment they would come up to me and say something. Two decide to approach me and one remained outside. The guard who started talking was named Phil, not sure of the other one since he didn't say a thing, thus I assumed Phil was the ranking guard at the moment.

    Here's our conversation:

    Phil: "Hello sir."
    me: "Hi, how ya doin'?"
    Phil: "Good. Sir, I'm going to have to ask you to conceal your weapon."
    me: "Why is that? I thought Bellevue Square was okay to OC in."
    Phil: "Well it's not. Do you have your CPL on you?"
    me: "Yes I do. I talked to the Bellevue PD recently and they said OC is perfectly fine."

    Phil: "Well under state law, IF YOU HAVE YOUR CPL ON YOU, THEN YOU MUST CONCEAL CARRY. You can't OC with the license on you. I have one too and I believe it says that on your CPL license."


    So I take out my CPL and start reading and NO WHERE does it state this.

    me: (At this point in my head I'm thinking "are you serious?") "So you're saying I can't OC when I have my CPL license on me in the state of Washington? Is that correct?"


    Phil: "That is correct. It's not a good idea to OC because you could be arrested if someone feels threatened. Suppose an old grandma feels threatened and screams when she sees your weapon, then you could be arrested for that."

    At this point I wuss out and conceal my pistol because I don't want to get kicked out or waste my time with someone who doesn't seem to know the law.

    me: (I'm wearing a polo shirt and it does not conceal very well) "Well it's concealed but this shirt won't do it very well since I had planned on OC'ing all day."

    Phil: "That's good enough for now. Wear a loose shirt next time you're in the mall carrying and it'll be better."

    The three guards walk away and I wasn't confronted again for the period I was there.


    I seriously feel like my rights were violated right now. Could someone please clarify if the guard had any grounds to say what he said? Is it okay to OC in Bellevue Square? I'm thinking of contacting the head of security at Bellevue Square and finding out their policy on OC'ing. Does anyone know or who I should contact to find out?
    Its never a waste of your time to educate others. Even if you just left a pamphlet. This guy will continue tobe wrong because he doesnt know any better. As far as your rights go, it is private property and you can be asked toleave or CC.So I would have just left and taken my business somewhere else.

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    Yeah, I was about to hand him a pamphlet but I remembered another post on the board about carrying in the mall. It seems like the property owners fully support CC, not OC.

    I'm glad you clarified that it's private property. Now I'll just CC in the mall. Next time I'll drop off a pamphlet at the security desk so they know what the law states about having a CPL.

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    Phil: "That is correct. It's not a good idea to OC because you could be arrested if someone feels threatened. Suppose an old grandma feels threatened and screams when she sees your weapon, then you could be arrested for that."
    "Well then, I suppose I'd have to swear out criminal complaints against the arresting officers for criminal violations of 18 USC sections 241 and 242, as well as RCW 9A.36.070. While there's a slim chance the procecuting attorney would actually PURSUE those charges, that would not prclude a civil action under 42 USC sec 1983."



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    The mall and the stores in it are all private property (as is Lincoln square across the street).

    This may be a fine opportunity for education as both properties are owned and operated by Kemper Development. They have their own security director, dispatch and training officers.

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    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    If you were in a store, that's private property. I have no idea if the square is public.
    ALL shopping malls are private property, at least in Washington. Policies like this are set by mall management/ownership and the issue should be addressed with them.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    j2l3 wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    If you were in a store, that's private property. I have no idea if the square is public.
    ALL shopping malls are private property, at least in Washington. Policies like this are set by mall management/ownership and the issue should be addressed with them.
    actually, not ALL are private...and the one that comes immediately to mind is Westlake Center...the individual stores are private, but I belive the "park" and surrounding open areas are city property



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    That was the same reasoning the second in charge of Bellingham PD Flo Simon Deputy chief of services tried to use on me, so its not just the security who get it wrong.

    I wondered about the private store thing too. The employees at Big 5 here in Bellingham all seem gun freindly, and they sell guns and they are at Bellis Fair Mall wich is not OC freindly from what I understand.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    5jeffro7 wrote:
    j2l3 wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    If you were in a store, that's private property. I have no idea if the square is public.
    ALL shopping malls are private property, at least in Washington. Policies like this are set by mall management/ownership and the issue should be addressed with them.
    actually, not ALL are private...and the one that comes immediately to mind is Westlake Center...the individual stores are private, but I belive the "park" and surrounding open areas are city property

    The park across the street (Westlake Park) is public, the mall and surrounding property is owned by the mall owners.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    Your rights were not violated. You made the choice to conceal.

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    Next time leave the CPL in the C.A.R.......

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    M1Gunr wrote:
    Next time leave the CPL in the C.A.R.......
    That is a tough one, for me anyway. If I leave CPLin the car than Phil the mall COP may step it up and use the private property bit, so I must now leave or trespass and risk arrest. If I have my CPL the family and I can at least complete shopping in this situation, and I'm still armed for protection. Just something that crossed my mind!

    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    jbone wrote:
    M1Gunr wrote:
    Next time leave the CPL in the C.A.R.......
    That is a tough one, for me anyway. If I leave CPLin the car than Phil the mall COP may step it up and use the private property bit, so I must now leave or trespass and risk arrest. If I have my CPL the family and I can at least complete shopping in this situation, and I'm still armed for protection. Just something that crossed my mind!
    You might want to read the info in this thread on Bellevue Square, Lincoln Square, and other Kemper Development Company properties that was posted this past Jan.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=21153&forum_id=55

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    I faxed Kemper properties security team telling them about an open carry demonstration that we are stagingon their Bellevue Square property July 18th 12pm to 5pm. I won't be able to make it because of my current experiment testing out each cities police response for a "MWAG/open carry"call. 6 cities down, 12 cities to go, enjoy the summer everyone!!

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    j2l3 wrote:
    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    If you were in a store, that's private property. I have no idea if the square is public.
    ALL shopping malls are private property, at least in Washington. Policies like this are set by mall management/ownership and the issue should be addressed with them.
    I am well aware of that. But I've never been to Bellevue Square and I didn't know if it was outdoors/indoors or whatever.

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    PolskiG wrote:
    I faxed Kemper properties security team telling them about an open carry demonstration that we are stagingon their Bellevue Square property July 18th 12pm to 5pm. ............
    Who is doing any kind of demonstration? I never heard anythingabout this demonstration..............I was in impression that you either drowned in Lake washington or got bitten by zombies

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    Manu wrote:
    PolskiG wrote:
    I faxed Kemper properties security team telling them about an open carry demonstration that we are stagingon their Bellevue Square property July 18th 12pm to 5pm. ............
    Who is doing any kind of demonstration? I never heard anythingabout this demonstration..............I was in impression that you either drowned in Lake washington or got bitten by zombies
    Open carriers are, right? Thats what I told them.... so you guys better get movin. otherwise we'll look silly. Most of the zombies got laid off this summer due to the economy.

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    PolskiG wrote:
    Manu wrote:
    PolskiG wrote:
    I faxed Kemper properties security team telling them about an open carry demonstration that we are stagingon their Bellevue Square property July 18th 12pm to 5pm. ............
    Who is doing any kind of demonstration? I never heard anythingabout this demonstration..............I was in impression that you either drowned in Lake washington or got bitten by zombies
    Open carriers are, right? Thats what I told them.... so you guys better get movin. otherwise we'll look silly. Most of the zombies got laid off this summer due to the economy.
    A well trained zombie isn't cheap these days ya know. :?

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    PolskiG wrote:
    Manu wrote:
    PolskiG wrote:
    I faxed Kemper properties security team telling them about an open carry demonstration that we are stagingon their Bellevue Square property July 18th 12pm to 5pm. ............
    Who is doing any kind of demonstration? I never heard anythingabout this demonstration..............I was in impression that you either drowned in Lake washington or got bitten by zombies
    Open carriers are, right? Thats what I told them.... so you guys better get movin. otherwise we'll look silly. Most of the zombies got laid off this summer due to the economy.
    Damn it I was reading it as "Most of the zombies got laid".

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    Is there really going to be an event? I live a few blocks from the mall.

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    I faxed the head security guy at kemper inc on Wednesday and told them nicely to stop hassling open carriers. I told them to expect a 12pm oc demonstration at the mall. I didn't mention this site and I kept it very general, so if anyone wants to show up go for it. The willows lake thing is on the same day which I forgot, so looks like bellevue will be unlikely for some. I believe that instead of boycotting places that don't allow open carry we should be showing up at those places in large numbers in a "piece"ful protest. Good luck.

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