Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29

Thread: CHP application process question

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    , Virginia, USA
    Posts
    387

    Post imported post

    A friend of mine applied for his CHP and was required to submit 3 copies of everything to include DL, application, qualification cert. etc. Is this allowed by state law?

    I intentionally left out the county for now.

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    Toad wrote:
    A friend of mine applied for his CHP and was required to submit 3 copies of everything to include DL, application, qualification cert. etc. Is this allowed by state law?

    I intentionally left out the county for now.
    The copies is probably going to be sustained if challeneged - courts do set "procedure" for filing and if you file a civil suit, you will normally have to follow their procedures, e.g., extra copies.

    But copies of DLs or other IDs cannot be required - in fact, their is no ID required to apply for CHPs unless the locality requires fingerprinting in which case reasonable ID can be required by the police.

    If your frind supplies the DL copy, it will be put in the CHP file and subject to public inspection and copying and even being put on the Internet by anyone who wants to do so.

    It would be great if your friend would refuse to show ID or DL when applyhing and force the issue - obviously this means getting the application notorized before he gets tot he courthouse, which means showing ID unless the notory knows him.

    He needs to be ready to have the application denied and prepared to suck it up - if the clerk refuses to accept, he should find a lawyer to bring a mandamus action in circuit ct against the clerk; if a judge denies, even better, then find a lawyer to file appeal to the Va. App. Ct.

    BTW, make sure your friend knows SSNs are not required on the application and to write in "not disclosed, if any" in that block so that somebody else does not fill in that block!

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Virginia USA, ,
    Posts
    1,688

    Post imported post

    Toad wrote:
    A friend of mine applied for his CHP and was required to submit 3 copies of everything to include DL, application, qualification cert. etc. Is this allowed by state law?

    I intentionally left out the county for now.
    i made everything in 3x (sans DL)

    I would not let them scan that, as it is FOIA'able

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Arlington, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    252

    Post imported post

    I just made the 3 copies.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Super Secret Squirrel Bunker, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    485

    Post imported post

    I know this might come as a surprise but the court actually has a copier that our generous tax money paid for. If you're in fairfax, you can take pride in knowing it's on a unique Italian marble floor. :P

    The court could probably go either way on the issue of copies, but the law does say submit your (singular tense) application ... Plus, if it costs you to comply with the extra-legal procedures set by a particular court, and they already charge the statutory maximum $50, you can sue for them for 'charging' you more than permitted by law. While the cost ofextra copies is probably less than a buck, to comply witha court's 3 copies law could costyou $2-3 depending on what notary fees are involved, and if they require you to provide a SASE, that's also extra.

    You could end up spending $55 for what is supposed to only cost you $50. I think though that the SASE issue is not one worth pushing. The courtcould easily respond - Ok, come here to pick it up, or change their instructions to 'provide a SASE if you want your permit mailed to you, otherwise come pick it up'.

    Severalapplicants in Fairfax county have submitted singular copy applications and been approved.

  6. #6
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    www.ProactiveShooters.com, Richmond, Va., , USA
    Posts
    4,671

    Post imported post

    Mr. Y wrote:
    I know this might come as a surprise but the court actually has a copier that our generous tax money paid for. If you're in fairfax, you can take pride in knowing it's on a unique Italian marble floor. :P

    The court could probably go either way on the issue of copies, but the law does say submit your (singular tense) application ... Plus, if it costs you to comply with the extra-legal procedures set by a particular court, and they already charge the statutory maximum $50, you can sue for them for 'charging' you more than permitted by law. While the cost ofextra copies is probably less than a buck, to comply witha court's 3 copies law could costyou $2-3 depending on what notary fees are involved, and if they require you to provide a SASE, that's also extra.

    You could end up spending $55 for what is supposed to only cost you $50. I think though that the SASE issue is not one worth pushing. The courtcould easily respond - Ok, come here to pick it up, or change their instructions to 'provide a SASE if you want your permit mailed to you, otherwise come pick it up'.

    Severalapplicants in Fairfax county have submitted singular copy applications and been approved.

    I think that anything that they ask for over $50 outlined in the Code is worth fighting for.....give them an inch, they take a mile.

    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  7. #7
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Post imported post

    I don't remember exactly, but I think I provided my DL as proof of age and they photocopied it along with a copy of my Water Bill as proof of residency.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  8. #8
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    wylde007 wrote:
    I don't remember exactly, but I think I provided my DL as proof of age and they photocopied it along with a copy of my Water Bill as proof of residency.
    But there is no requirement for you to prove your age or place of actual residence - you must merely assert siuch information on the form - if people would stop complying with these demands, the demands would stop.

  9. #9
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Post imported post

    According to the VSP independent municipalities have some leeway in what they may require to be provided along with permit application, much like some elect to require fingerprinting cards.

    Since a valid photo ID MUST BE CARRIED with a conceal permit in VA, having a copy of it on file is really not much of a stretch in my mind.

    Is it excessive? Maybe. Is it a violation? It doesn't read that way to me.

    From "http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_ResidentConcealed.shtm"
    It is suggested that the applicant check with the Circuit Court where they reside for any local procedures. Questions specific to completion of the application, residency, or acceptable proof of handgun competency should be directed to the court.
    However, at least in Virginia Beach, it does not appear that providing identification or proof of residency at the time of the filing is not required.

    http://www.vbgov.com/vgn.aspx?vgnext...extfmt=default

    I guess they got me. Shucks.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    This site:

    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308

    is the ultimate authority, not the VSP web site.

    TFred


  11. #11
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Va Beach, Occupied VA
    Posts
    3,037

    Post imported post

    You don't say.:?

    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    856

    Post imported post

    I think Fred's point is that even the Virginia State Police might be adding extralegal requirements that aren't sanctioned in the law. Proving your identity or residency versus merely stating them are examples of requirements that don't exist in law.

    ~ Boyd

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Arlington, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    252

    Post imported post

    Here's a funny one for you. The CHP law says:

    H. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall specify only the following information: name, address, date of birth, gender, height, weight, color of hair, color of eyes, and signature of the permittee; the signature of the judge issuing the permit, or of the clerk of court who has been authorized to sign such permits by the issuing judge; the date of issuance; and the expiration date.
    ...yet CHPs have 'File # xx-xxx' specified at the top. Who's going to complain about that? What about the fact that it says "Commonwealth of Virginia", or the name of the court, or even "Permit to carry a concealed handgun"?? That's 'information', right??


  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Arlington, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    87

    Post imported post

    Just put in my app for my CHP on Monday at the Prince William County Courthouse. The lady did ask for the license but only glanced at it real quick to make sure the addresses matched then handed it back to me. No copies of any of my official identification (DL, Passport, Birth Cert, etc) save my change of name court papers were put in along with my app.

  15. #15
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,845

    Post imported post

    PeteXD wrote:
    Just put in my app for my CHP on Monday at the Prince William County Courthouse. The lady did ask for the license but only glanced at it real quick to make sure the addresses matched then handed it back to me. No copies of any of my official identification (DL, Passport, Birth Cert, etc) save my change of name court papers were put in along with my app.
    That's about what York County did, too. They also made me go downstairs to the juvenile detention processing facility to get electronically fingerprinted. The Deputy that scanned my prints treated me like a criminal, even though I was polite and tried conversation. When I left, I got the feeling my application would be denied becuase of the way I was treated. I got it in a couple weeks, but I definitely got the feeling that the guy doing the electronic printing was either under some sort of disciplinary action or he just doesn't like the idea of citizens having the right to CC...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Arlington, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    87

    Post imported post

    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    PeteXD wrote:
    Just put in my app for my CHP on Monday at the Prince William County Courthouse. The lady did ask for the license but only glanced at it real quick to make sure the addresses matched then handed it back to me. No copies of any of my official identification (DL, Passport, Birth Cert, etc) save my change of name court papers were put in along with my app.
    That's about what York County did, too. They also made me go downstairs to the juvenile detention processing facility to get electronically fingerprinted. The Deputy that scanned my prints treated me like a criminal, even though I was polite and tried conversation. When I left, I got the feeling my application would be denied becuase of the way I was treated. I got it in a couple weeks, but I definitely got the feeling that the guy doing the electronic printing was either under some sort of disciplinary action or he just doesn't like the idea of citizens having the right to CC...
    yeah they didnt print me... kinda glad too... was in a bit of a rush and the FBI has PLENTY of records of my prints by now between applying for LEO positions in NoVa, DCJS certs, and security jobs... :P

  17. #17
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,845

    Post imported post

    PeteXD wrote:
    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    PeteXD wrote:
    Just put in my app for my CHP on Monday at the Prince William County Courthouse. The lady did ask for the license but only glanced at it real quick to make sure the addresses matched then handed it back to me. No copies of any of my official identification (DL, Passport, Birth Cert, etc) save my change of name court papers were put in along with my app.
    That's about what York County did, too. They also made me go downstairs to the juvenile detention processing facility to get electronically fingerprinted. The Deputy that scanned my prints treated me like a criminal, even though I was polite and tried conversation. When I left, I got the feeling my application would be denied becuase of the way I was treated. I got it in a couple weeks, but I definitely got the feeling that the guy doing the electronic printing was either under some sort of disciplinary action or he just doesn't like the idea of citizens having the right to CC...
    yeah they didnt print me... kinda glad too... was in a bit of a rush and the FBI has PLENTY of records of my prints by now between applying for LEO positions in NoVa, DCJS certs, and security jobs... :P
    Me too. No shortage of my prints in the system from military service, security clearances, international travel, law enforcement, Texas CHL, etc...

    If I ever leave my prints somewhere, they know who I am pretty darn fast...

    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  18. #18
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    7,705

    Post imported post

    PeteXD wrote:
    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    PeteXD wrote:
    Just put in my app for my CHP on Monday at the Prince William County Courthouse. The lady did ask for the license but only glanced at it real quick to make sure the addresses matched then handed it back to me. No copies of any of my official identification (DL, Passport, Birth Cert, etc) save my change of name court papers were put in along with my app.
    That's about what York County did, too. They also made me go downstairs to the juvenile detention processing facility to get electronically fingerprinted. The Deputy that scanned my prints treated me like a criminal, even though I was polite and tried conversation. When I left, I got the feeling my application would be denied becuase of the way I was treated. I got it in a couple weeks, but I definitely got the feeling that the guy doing the electronic printing was either under some sort of disciplinary action or he just doesn't like the idea of citizens having the right to CC...
    yeah they didnt print me... kinda glad too... was in a bit of a rush and the FBI has PLENTY of records of my prints by now between applying for LEO positions in NoVa, DCJS certs, and security jobs... :P
    That seems odd. Does anyone know if York County has an ordinance in place for fingerprinting? It's my understanding that if they don't, they cannot require you to submit prints.

    From the pertinent paragraph of 18.2-308: "As a condition for issuance of a concealed handgun permit, the applicant shall submit to fingerprinting if required by local ordinance in the county or city where the applicant resides..."

    TFred


  19. #19
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,845

    Post imported post

    If it's "wrong", what recourse do I have?
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  20. #20
    Moderator / Administrator
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    8,711

    Post imported post

    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    If it's "wrong", what recourse do I have?
    Now that you gave in, none. But does York have an ordinance or not? As a York resident, you should know or find out this info.

  21. #21
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,845

    Post imported post

    Guess I'll find out and possibly save the next guy (or gal)some grief...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  22. #22
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Northern Piedmont of Virginia
    Posts
    2,373

    Post imported post

    The statute requires only that you fill out the form mandated by the VSP and submit to fingerprinting if the jurisdiction requires it. *You only have to file that form, with fingerprints if required, and your fifty bucks. *
    In theory, you could take along a witness to be able to prove that you've tendered your application and fee to the court, take in the single copy, and treat that as filed (leave it on the counter with the check if they won't accept it - they don't have discretion to not accept it - you have an absolute right to file just about anything subject to a determination by a judge whether you should have done so or not). *Then, forty-five days later, check in and demand they issue your temporary permit as required by law. *When they say no, file suit for a writ of mandamus against the clerk of court to require the clerk to do his legal duty. *Good luck with that, by the way. *(I'll take that case on an hourly basis, but I'll want about six thousand dollars up front.)
    I always tell people to make at least two duplicate originals anyway - you want a file stamped copy for your records showing the date and time you filed the application. *And *if you have the clerk make the copies for you, they can charge you fifty cents per page.
    Every clerk's office in every court in Virginia has slightly different procedures. *It is best to go along with anything they require that does not result in actual prejudice against your interests. *The question is whether you want what you do to be effective, or do you want to be "right".
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    856

    Post imported post

    user wrote:
    The statute requires only that you fill out the form mandated by the VSP and submit to fingerprinting if the jurisdiction requires it. You only have to file that form, with fingerprints if required, and your fifty bucks.
    Plus "proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun." Sorry to get all lawyer-y on ya there. :P

    ~ Boyd

  24. #24
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Newport News, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,845

    Post imported post

    When I applied for mine, the clerk was very polite and smiled. The surly deputy was the fingerprint guy in the basement. He said his scanner-gizmo was sometimesdifficult and tempermental. As far as the "competency" thing went, they were happy to see my DD-214 and a copy of some Camp Perry results where I did well. I wasn't happy with their copying of my personal papers, though.
    She didn't even ask if she could...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

  25. #25
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    856

    Post imported post

    MSC 45ACP wrote:
    She didn't even ask if she could...
    Maybe because the law requires a copy of the document submitted as proof.

    A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.
    ~ Boyd

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •