Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: Tension continues in Capitol Forest - Outdoors: Some worry use of guns a risk to others

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    766

    Post imported post

    http://www.theolympian.com/outdoors/...ry/908945.html



    Reckless and destructive discharge of firearms continues to plague the Capitol State Forest, recreational users and neighbors say.
    In the past three weeks, vandals have peppered four new signs installed in the forest with bullets and shotgun pellets. The cost to replace the signs is pegged at about $1,000, said Phil Wolff, a state Department of Natural Resources recreation manager assigned to the Olympia-area forest.

    In tough budget times, the vandalism is especially troubling, Wolff said.

    “It’s money that could be used to pump an outhouse, replace a couple of rotten picnic tables, repair four campground fire rings or grade a campground parking area,” he said.

    Damage to signs from firearms is nothing new in a forest where recreational target shooting is legal and hunting is widely accepted.

    But in a 100,000-acre working forest that hosts about 100,000 visitors a year, conflicts among the various user groups can and do arise.

    Mountain bicyclists, horseback riders, motorcyclists, hunters, hikers, campers and target shooters flock to the forest, which has 180 miles of trails evenly split between motorized and non-motorized use.

    The hunting and target shooting is dispersed throughout the forest, although target shooting is supposed to be at manufactured targets placed against earthen backstops no closer than 500 feet from a campground, structure or residence and not on, down, next to or across roads and trails, according to recent rules developed by DNR.

    Shooters also are supposed to pick up their shell casings, ammunition packaging and other debris.

    Some question whether that is enough to make the forest safe for everyone.

    “Sometimes you hear gunshots from 50 feet away,” said John Kramer, a Capitol Forest mountain biker and member of the volunteer group Friends of Capitol Forest. “Multiple riders have been pinned down by fire from rifles, semi-automatic weapons and handguns.”

    Dave Snyder, another Friends of Capitol Forest member and a nearby resident, said he enjoys riding his mountain bike in the forest, as well as target shooting.

    “Safe shooting can exist in the forest,” he said.

    “I don’t have an issue with hunting,” said Capitol State Forest neighbor Marshall Oatman. “But it’s like a free-for-all up here with the random shooting. Nothing short of an outright ban is going to work. What are we waiting for? A stray bullet to hit a biker?”

    DNR officials shudder at that thought as they walk a fine line, trying to accommodate all of the users of the Capitol State Forest and their other holdings across the state.

    “This is a big emerging issue statewide; it’s high on our radar screen,” DNR spokeswoman Jane Chavey said. “With increased public-access closures on private forestlands, we’ve become the last spot in the lowlands.”

    With suburban and rural population growth, the Capitol State Forest no longer is the remote place it once was.

    And amid tough economic times and high fuel prices, the public is turning more and more to state lands for recreation closer to home, said Larry Raedel, chief of law enforcement services for DNR.

    Raedel has two officers working in the Pacific Cascade Region of DNR, which takes in much of Southwest Washington, including the Capitol State Forest.

    “We’re spread pretty thin,” he said. “We really rely on the public to be our eyes and ears in the woods.”

    Formed four years ago, Friends of Capitol Forest has helped clean up garbage dumped in the forest, deterred vandalism by making parking areas more secure and placed giant stumps in areas where illegal off-road access has developed.

    “The forest is pretty clean right now,” Snyder said as he surveyed an older dump site on a rutted trail littered with shotgun shells. “If we can keep it cleaned up, there will be less incentive for people to dump.”

    The forest also escaped a recent round of DNR budget cuts to the agency’s recreational program, which lost 50 percent of its funding in the 2009 state budget.

    But the forest is not immune to service cuts later in the two-year budget cycle, Wolff said.

    “In tight budget times, we certainly don’t need vandalism,” he said.



  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    591

    Post imported post

    1000.00 signs, i know what racket i need to get in

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    73

    Post imported post

    ******** that shoot signs give us all a bad name, because it's very identifiable vandalism that is clearly visible.

    It's unfortunate that rednecks (term loosely used) are out there in such numbers . . . .

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Eagle River, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    584

    Post imported post

    Yes that's it make it illegal to shoot there and you'll notice that signs stop getting shot at or is it already illegal to shoot at the signs. Seriously hard to believe a sign costs $1000 that must be a huge sign, but no wonder they have a hard time getting things done.

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    FunkTrooper wrote:
    Yes that's it make it illegal to shoot there and you'll notice that signs stop getting shot at or is it already illegal to shoot at the signs. Seriously hard to believe a sign costs $1000 that must be a huge sign, but no wonder they have a hard time getting things done.
    Four signs per $1000 = $250 apiece.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  6. #6

  7. #7
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Olympia, WA, ,
    Posts
    3,201

    Post imported post

    I was at the pit Monday and it could use another clean up. Anyone with Mondays or Tuesdays off up to gathering a few bags of trash? Even if we just picked up packaging and bottles we'd be doing good. Raking up an area free of shotshells would be even kewler.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Eagle River, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    584

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    FunkTrooper wrote:
    Yes that's it make it illegal to shoot there and you'll notice that signs stop getting shot at or is it already illegal to shoot at the signs. Seriously hard to believe a sign costs $1000 that must be a huge sign, but no wonder they have a hard time getting things done.
    Four signs per $1000 = $250 apiece.
    $250 still seems pretty high but thanks for the clarification it was really easy to read the cost per sign as $1000.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    4

    Post imported post

    I don't feel that $250 is too unreasonable for a sign. You gotta pay someone to make the sign, then you gotta pay someone to take the sign up in the woods and replace the sign. You have to have all the tools, mounting hardware, and equipment to do the job. Then you have to have a vehicle capable of getting to the sign, that has to be insured. Then you have to put fuel in said vehicle.

    If you can do that for less then $250 you better put in a bid for the job.

    Mad Pick: Us rednecks and hillbillies are probably not the problem. We don't go out looking for signs to shoot, we're too lazy for that. It is more likely to be one of two things. Either it is a group of youths or young adults, or it is an anti gun group that is doing all it can to make gun owners look bad. Shooting signs is a sure way to make every responsible person that visits the area frown on gun owners.

    Sounds like it is time to put up a few trail cameras when the new signs go up. I bet that you will get a picture of a Volkswagen with an E.L.F sticker on it doing a drive by.

    Glad to hear that you guys are tackling the issues over there and doing what you can to keep it clean. Sounds like a nice place.

    Weaz



  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Eagle River, Alaska, USA
    Posts
    584

    Post imported post

    If they hire out to a company to replace signs sure $250 is a good price, however if they have the Rangers replace signs then the tools and equipment is usually on site already.

    I doubt it's anti-gun people but who knows it could be some thugs that actually practice but more than likely it's just younger guys who just don't care. I used to live in Alaska and finding a sign that hasn't been shot is pretty unusual.

    Before I forget, welcome to the forum!

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    194

    Post imported post

    Mad Pick wrote:
    @#$%s that shoot signs give us all a bad name, because it's very identifiable vandalism that is clearly visible.

    It's unfortunate that rednecks (term loosely used) are out there in such numbers . . . .
    Easy with the redneck insult... Most rednecks are not the "Larry the Cable Guy" type, but well versed American Patriots who know guns inside and out better than most. Most of them know how to handle them better than city-folk as well. If you think about all the misfires and negligent discharges, it's usually the city-folk.

  12. #12
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North of Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    5,953

    Post imported post

    Little Weaz wrote:
    I don't feel that $250 is too unreasonable for a sign.
    Neither do I. Before I retired I had to purchase signs. Some for Buildings and some for vacant lots where we were going to build a building. You know, the basic "Comming Soon to this Site" type sign on a 4X8 sheet of plywood.





    Each plywood sign cost me just under $250 when I bought them 50 at a time. They were mass produced using silkscreen process. This was UNINSTALLED. If the State is installing signs for only $250 each that's good work. Probably the only bargain with their services though.



    For some reason there are too many @-holes out there that see a sign and consider it incomplete without a bulllet hole or two. Maybe we should install exploding signs in areas where idiots like to shoot them. Make the explosion big enough to eliminate the twerps.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Everett, Washington, USA
    Posts
    160

    Post imported post

    Maybe make a couple 3inch steel signs. I am sure the ricochet would be enough to get people to stop shooting the signs especially when it hits there cars and such.

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    73

    Post imported post

    Nitrox314 wrote:
    Mad Pick wrote:
    @#$%s that shoot signs give us all a bad name, because it's very identifiable vandalism that is clearly visible.

    It's unfortunate that rednecks (term loosely used) are out there in such numbers . . . .
    Easy with the redneck insult... Most rednecks are not the "Larry the Cable Guy" type, but well versed American Patriots who know guns inside and out better than most. Most of them know how to handle them better than city-folk as well. If you think about all the misfires and negligent discharges, it's usually the city-folk.
    I guess we all have our own definition of the term "redneck." For me, it's a stereotype of folks that are ignorant and don't give a rip about anything outside of their little world. I don't use it to mean people from rural areas, which is how I think you took it. No offense intended to the country folk, that's for sure.

    And I agree with FunkTrooper; the sign-shooting isn't something that the anti-gun lobby would do. This is something that we (gun owners) need to take ownership of, and work to resolve.

  15. #15
    Regular Member shad0wfax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,067

    Post imported post

    http://www.theolympian.com/outdoors/...ry/908945.html



    Reckless and destructive discharge of firearms continues to plague the Capitol State Forest, recreational users and neighbors say.
    In the past three weeks, vandals have peppered four new signs installed in the forest with bullets and shotgun pellets.
    This is already against the law. Enforce the law.


    “Sometimes you hear gunshots from 50 feet away,” said John Kramer, a Capitol Forest mountain biker and member of the volunteer group Friends of Capitol Forest. “Multiple riders have been pinned down by fire from rifles, semi-automatic weapons and handguns.”
    <sarcasm>

    He's a completely unbiased source with no coloring of his statement at all. Furthermore, he's an expert on acoustic triangulation of firearm discharge accurate to within +/- 1 ft with a 95% confidence interval.

    </end sarcasm>

    “I don’t have an issue with hunting,” said Capitol State Forest neighbor Marshall Oatman. “But it’s like a free-for-all up here with the random shooting. Nothing short of an outright ban is going to work. What are we waiting for? A stray bullet to hit a biker?”
    Another gem of a quote. There's already an outright ban on shooting signs, but that isn't stopping the criminals doing it. Criminalizing the law-abiding segment of society who shoot responsibly isn't going to stop those who already illegally shoot the signs from illegally shooting if/once it's banned there.

    Raedel has two officers working in the Pacific Cascade Region of DNR, which takes in much of Southwest Washington, including the Capitol State Forest.

    “We’re spread pretty thin,” he said. “We really rely on the public to be our eyes and ears in the woods.”
    The public "Friends of Capitol Forest" should simply invest in video cameras, tape the criminals who shoot the signs on state DNR land and get license plates of the culprits in the tape. Then the state can prosecute and recover the cost of the sign as well.

    Formed four years ago, Friends of Capitol Forest has helped clean up garbage dumped in the forest, deterred vandalism by making parking areas more secure and placed giant stumps in areas where illegal off-road access has developed.

    “The forest is pretty clean right now,” Snyder said as he surveyed an older dump site on a rutted trail littered with shotgun shells. “If we can keep it cleaned up, there will be less incentive for people to dump.”
    Now I have a warm fuzzy. Let's keep up the warm fuzzy by rejoicing as the Friends of Capitol Forest help the DNR officials nab the one or two bad-apples who are ruining it for all of us instead of taking the communist way out and vying for an outright ban.

  16. #16
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nortonville, KY, USA
    Posts
    4,291

    Post imported post

    The public "Friends of Capitol Forest" should simply invest in video cameras, tape the criminals who shoot the signs on state DNR land and get license plates of the culprits in the tape. Then the state can prosecute and recover the cost of the sign as well.
    Lets install cameras because we know they would never shoot at high dollar electronics....

    How about when we see the stupidity in action we call LE and report it?


  17. #17
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Olympia, WA, ,
    Posts
    3,201

    Post imported post

    Thurston County Sheriff is spread so thin it's not even funny. The odds of them responding to most vandalism calls in a timely fashion are slim to none. And that is through no fault of their own, they are simply very thin on the ground, and thinner because of budget cuts. Supposedly TCSD has the lowest deputy to citizen ratio of any sheriff's department in the state.

  18. #18
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,327

    Post imported post

    Lets install cameras because we know they would never shoot at high dollar electronics....
    Sorry M1, there's a huge difference between a road sign which by its nature must be visible and evident, and a pine-forest-camo game camera 20 yards off to the side hidden under a fir tree branch pointing at the road sign.

    Would some of them get discovered and destroyed or stolen? No doubt, but it's not a sure bet and it would be a great idea to try a few and see what results could be gotten.

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Everett / Leavenworth, Washington, USA
    Posts
    89

    Post imported post

    Why not manage it the same as a State Wildlife Refuge? In order to use it , You are Required to have a Hunting License,for non hunters,a Conservation License is mandatory.I am tired of footing the bill for the "Leaf Licking,Tree Spiking,Bunny Huggers" anyway.The idea of being stopped and checked for a License might be a detterent for some would be vandals.

  20. #20
    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pierce County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,013

    Post imported post

    SANDRAT wrote:
    Why not manage it the same as a State Wildlife Refuge? In order to use it , You are Required to have a Hunting License,for non hunters,a Conservation License is mandatory.I am tired of footing the bill for the "Leaf Licking,Tree Spiking,Bunny Huggers" anyway.The idea of being stopped and checked for a License might be a detterent for some would be vandals.
    Yes, because CCWs sure stop thugs from carrying a gun in their waistband; drivers licenses sure stop unlicensed drivers from driving. Let's not advocate any more government than we already have, hmm?

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Olympia, WA
    Posts
    766

    Post imported post

    I think people here are not properly analyzed the choices that are available to government, and the alternative choices that are available to private citizens.

    Some choices for government (DNR).
    1. Ignore the problem until an innocent bystander gets shot.
    2. Partially ban recreational shooting.
    3. Completely ban recreational shooting.

    Some choices available to private citizens.
    1. Voluntarily clean up junk left by the idiots.
    2. Voluntarily educate the idiots that their actions are socially unacceptable.
    3. Voluntarily monitor the areas frequented by the idiots, and identify the idiots for prosecution.

    I don't know the exact method of "how" actions by private citizens would be implemented, nor do I know if such efforts would be successful in preempting action by DNR. However, I think focusing on what private citizens can do might preempt DNR and repair the damage done to the image of responsible shooters.

    There certainly has to be smarter people than myself on this forum that can come up with some ideas on how private citizens can come up with a solution that would preempt the heavy hand of government.

    One thing that I did notice while visiting the area was that cell phone reception is unavailable in much of Capitol Forest, which makes it difficult for private citizens to notify the Sheriff or DNR of reckless shooting, in real time.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Everett / Leavenworth, Washington, USA
    Posts
    89

    Post imported post

    compmanio365 wrote:
    SANDRAT wrote:
    Why not manage it the same as a State Wildlife Refuge? In order to use it , You are Required to have a Hunting License,for non hunters,a Conservation License is mandatory.I am tired of footing the bill for the "Leaf Licking,Tree Spiking,Bunny Huggers" anyway.The idea of being stopped and checked for a License might be a detterent for some would be vandals.
    Yes, because CCWs sure stop thugs from carrying a gun in their waistband; drivers licenses sure stop unlicensed drivers from driving. Let's not advocate any more government than we already have, hmm?
    You're right,bonehead thought on my part,I thought about it after posting it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kingston, Washington, USA
    Posts
    343

    Post imported post

    @#$%s that shoot signs give us all a bad name, because it's very identifiable vandalism that is clearly visible.

    It's unfortunate that rednecks (term loosely used) are out there in such numbers . . . .

    You know that the term "Redneck" is anti-white racist term functionally equivalent to the N-word.


    Anytime you would like to back that up I will be happy to meet you.





  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    73

    Post imported post

    Wheelgunner wrote:
    @#$%s that shoot signs give us all a bad name, because it's very identifiable vandalism that is clearly visible.

    It's unfortunate that rednecks (term loosely used) are out there in such numbers . . . .

    You know that the term "Redneck" is anti-white racist term functionally equivalent to the N-word.


    Anytime you would like to back that up I will be happy to meet you.



    Wow . . . spoiling for a fight, are you? :?

    No, I've never heard such a definition of the term. In fact, the people that questioned my use of it earlier in this thread seemed proud to consider themselves "rednecks," so I doubt that they use your definition either.

  25. #25
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2,086

    Post imported post

    Wheelgunner wrote:
    @#$%s that shoot signs give us all a bad name, because it's very identifiable vandalism that is clearly visible.

    It's unfortunate that rednecks (term loosely used) are out there in such numbers . . . .

    *You know that the term "Redneck" is anti-white racist term functionally equivalent to the N-word.


    Anytime you would like to back that up I will be happy to meet you.



    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •