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Thread: Man tries to rob store with a fake gun

  1. #1
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    NEVER bring a toy gun...to a cricket bat fight.

    The video is pretty cool.

    Actually, this case brings up an interesting question.Whatwould a clerk/store owner who is armedwith a gun do whenbeing "robbed"by some goofball with a fake gun? Hmmm.




    Man tries to rob store with fake gun

    Monday, 13 Jul 2009

    BAY MINETTE, Ala. - Investigators say a suspected armed robber's motive was real, but his weapon was a fake.

    Jay Patel says he was checking out customers when a would-be robber came inside his Bee Gee's convenience store. Since it was the weekend, traffic inside was pretty steady.

    Security cameras caught the man coming inside the store. Patel says he appeared to be a normal customer. The man went to the back and got a soft drink from the cooler. When he made his way to the counter, he shoved a customer out the way, pulled out his gun and demanded money.

    "At first I thought, 'What are you doing? You got to be kidding me. What are you trying to do. If you want the money take it,'" said Patel.

    Then Patel realized something weird.

    "I looked at the gun and it had an orange tip on it. So I knew it was a fake," says Patel.

    The man moved the gun up and down. Patel thinks that was to make it less noticeable that his gun was a toy. That's when Patel flipped the script on him.

    "I went up to grab my bat. He saw me get the bat and he ran out of here. I just wanted him to know that I didn't want him to come back."

    Baldwin County Deputies say the man behind the mask and gun is 22-year-old Justin Sims.

    Patel says quick-thinking and good surveillance video helped police put a robber and his toy gun under lock and key.

    The video was so good, it led police right to the suspect.

    By the way, that bat Patel used was a cricket bat he had just laying around the house.

    http://www.fox10tv.com/dpp/news/crim..._With_Fake_Gun

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Good on him. But come on........a cricket bat?????? In Alabama???????

    If he swings it like they do in the game, all he will do is bruise someone's shin.

    Somebody go and buy that man a good Louisville Slugger and teach him to swing it like an American.



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    As good as baseball bats are for some good ole fashionbashin, a cricket bat is actually quite useful as well. Swing across with a chop and the recipient is in for one helluva bell ringin.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Actually, this case brings up an interesting question.Whatwould a clerk/store owner who is armedwith a gun do whenbeing "robbed"by some goofball with a fake gun?


    Shoot the S.O.B..... self defense.
    Real or fake the guy will still be charged with attempted armed robbery. From what I have witnessed in court hearings and seen on the media (consider the source).... the intent is real... fake weapon or not.


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    Guy tries to rob pizza delivery man with fake (BB) gun and gets shot. Sheriff says good shoot.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum48/28450.html



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    They make real guns look like they are toys by painting them.

    So in today's world... if someone is presenting what appears to be a gun.. you have to believe it is real.

    Second guessing it is a toy could make you very dead.

  7. #7
    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    They make real guns look like they are toys by painting them.

    So in today's world... if someone is presenting what appears to be a gun.. you have to believe it is real.
    I think you might be speaking from a typical LEO perspective.

    Hell, if someone produces any object with a 'g' or a 'b' in it in front of a cop, a cop feels justified in shooting him....

    :P

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    PT111 wrote:
    Guy tries to rob pizza delivery man with fake (BB) gun and gets shot. Sheriff says good shoot.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum48/28450.html

    Actually, since you asked, we had an attempted armed robbery in our store some years ago...the fool (being kind) brought a squirt gun to a gun fight! He had colored it black to look like a real gun, so we didn't realize it was fake until after he was on the floor frozen if fear of that "crazy man that was going to kill him!"

    Long story short, he got 7 years for use of a firearm in the commission of a felony, plus time for attempted armed robbery....and he thanked the deputies for saving him! The truth is, if my hubby hadn't been carrying that .45 AMT backup with the trigger-pull from hell, the young fellow would probably not have ever stood trial.

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    HankT wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    They make real guns look like they are toys by painting them.

    So in today's world... if someone is presenting what appears to be a gun.. you have to believe it is real.
    I think you might be speaking from a typical LEO perspective.

    Hell, if someone produces any object with a 'g' or a 'b' in it in front of a cop, a cop feels justified in shooting him....

    :P
    What do youmean by "G" or "B".. is this a good guy bad guy.. girl or boy???

    Not sure why would could not just say it.

    You are correct in that people pointing cell phones and wallets have been shot and killed. If you make a motion to indicate you have a gun and simulate that you are going to shoot someone... you take a chance they are going to believe you. I would not want to require othersto wait to be shotwhile they have to try and"identify" what the object is at lightening speed.

    Butthe topicof this threadis fake guns and not "objects". So the item is clearly discernible as a gun and not a mysteryobject.




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    LEO 229 wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    Butthe topicof this threadis fake...
    The topic of this thread is 'Which is puppeteer and which is puppet?' Where does the sockpuppeteer troll stick his hand?

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    WARCHILD wrote:
    Actually, this case brings up an interesting question.Whatwould a clerk/store owner who is armedwith a gun do whenbeing "robbed"by some goofball with a fake gun?


    Shoot the S.O.B..... self defense.
    Real or fake the guy will still be charged with attempted armed robbery. From what I have witnessed in court hearings and seen on the media (consider the source).... the intent is real... fake weapon or not.
    Years ago I asked a lawyer if someone goes into a bank to rob it with their finger stuck in their coat pocket like a gun and tells the people that he has a gun but it it sonly his finger could he be charged with armed robbery. The lawyer's answer was no since he did not have an actual gun. So much for the opinion of lawyers and everyone saying to ask a lawyer. Personally I think he should be charged with armed robbery and if I were on the jury he would hang. However in these days with the liberal courts and juries I would bet on it.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I would not want to require othersto wait to be shotwhile they have to try and"identify" what the object is at lightening speed.
    A citizen should not have to be absolutely correct and may rely on belief, but there must be an absolute requirement for a police officer to be correct. As public servants and experts, police must verify that there is an actual gun and actual imminent harm before firing. This means that police must make themselves momentarily vulnerable. Such is the burden of public service.

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    A civilian is held to a lower standard of weapons knowledge than a police officer.

    A person (the BG) displaying any item that is 'reasonably believed' to be capable of inflicting deadly force, held in such a way that could inflict deadly force (ie. pointing it) is considered to be commiting an act of deadly force.

    In that instance, the target of this deadly force (the GG) can use deadly force to stop the illegal activity.

    If you use deadly force, the resulting investigation may actually include items that attest to your expertise (or lack thereof) with firearms. Including books, magazines, training certificates, military experience (including your MOS), etc.

    Police officers are assumed to have a certain level of expertise.The same with former combat soldiers (as opposed to medics, engineers, supply clerks).

    Civilians (including legal gun owners) are not assumed to have expertise unless the above items (boods, magazines, etc) are present.

    It's all what the jury can be convinced of.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    I would not want to require othersto wait to be shotwhile they have to try and"identify" what the object is at lightening speed.
    A citizen should not have to be absolutely correct and may rely on belief, but there must be an absolute requirement for a police officer to be correct. As public servants and experts, police must verify that there is an actual gun and actual imminent harm before firing. This means that police must make themselves momentarily vulnerable. Such is the burden of public service.

    I like you.. you make me laugh. Do you know howcrazy you are!!

    Once again.. I am pleased you have nothing to do with drafting the laws of the state of Virginia.

    The law is clear in this area and you cannot sue a police officer if he believes you are pointing a gun at him. There is nothing in there about having to wait and be sure and hope for a warning shot to tip him off. He does not have to ask what make and model or if it is even loaded with copkiller bullets.

    But you keep playing your game in fantasy land.



    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-282

    ยง 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.

    C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.


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    WheelGun wrote:
    A civilian is held to a lower standard of weapons knowledge than a police officer.

    A person (the BG) displaying any item that is 'reasonably believed' to be capable of inflicting deadly force, held in such a way that could inflict deadly force (ie. pointing it) is considered to be commiting an act of deadly force.

    In that instance, the target of this deadly force (the GG) can use deadly force to stop the illegal activity.

    If you use deadly force, the resulting investigation may actually include items that attest to your expertise (or lack thereof) with firearms. Including books, magazines, training certificates, military experience (including your MOS), etc.

    Police officers are assumed to have a certain level of expertise.The same with former combat soldiers (as opposed to medics, engineers, supply clerks).

    Civilians (including legal gun owners) are not assumed to have expertise unless the above items (boods, magazines, etc) are present.

    It's all what the jury can be convinced of.
    Sounds about right to me.

    There are times when it does not even make it to the jury. The prosecutor can hear the details and if it appears to be a clear cut case he can decline to take it to trial.

    I have seen self defenceshooting by citizens take this route.

    But if it did go to trial... your training and experiencewould go in your favor to justify why you took the action you did.

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    I have to agree with LEO229 on this one. I know that if anyone brandishes anything reasonably resembling a gun in the shop here, I'm not obliged to give them the benefit of any doubt. I expect nothing different from law enforcement. I've seen real guns painted orange and so on. You can't afford to guess wrong.

    -ljp

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    My police instuctors tended to be of the mindset that a trained professional that screws up a shooting may be in hotter water than an untrained civilian that screws up.

    If the case hinges on firearms or other tactical knowledge that a civilian is not required to have.

    But then again, these are instructors whose every other words were "grey area.... grey area.... grey area."

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    WheelGun wrote:
    If you use deadly force, the resulting investigation may actually include items that attest to your expertise (or lack thereof) with firearms. Including books, magazines, training certificates, military experience (including your MOS), etc.
    Your statement is probably true, Do you have any examples of court cases where the persons reading material was brought up in the trial and swayed it either way?

    I am not disputing you, but I remember reading someplacethat if someone is on trial or rape, the prosecution is not able to bring up the defendant's previous rape convictions, or other previous chargesduring the trial. But the defense can bring up how the woman was dressed and her alleged promiscuous lifestyle and try to turn the story around.

    Ok, lets use this scenario. I have someone attempt to carjack me, they have a very convincing fascimile of a gun pointed at me. I shoot that person and kill them to defend myself.
    Because I have reloading manuals, reloading tools,and a few hunting magazine subscriptions in my name. How would something like this affect the outcome of my trial if I was charged with murder or manslaughter by defending myself?

    Now what about if the agressor's gun had a blaze orange tip on it like some toy guns have? Lets look at all the bi-tone and multicolor firearms out there these days. Ruger has their 10/22 availablewith purple stocks and forearms on them. How about the pink handguns? What about Desert Eagle with their gold tiger-striped .50AE? Becuase the gun is not blued with walnut grips am I supposed to expect it not to be real up until the point I get shot?

    Heck I carry a bi-tone SA XD-m, I have had people ask if it is real due to the color scheme.



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    Legba wrote:
    I have to agree with LEO229 on this one. I know that if anyone brandishes anything reasonably resembling a gun in the shop here, I'm not obliged to give them the benefit of any doubt. I expect nothing different from law enforcement. I've seen real guns painted orange and so on. You can't afford to guess wrong.

    -ljp
    I think that it starts when you have identified the guy is a threat in some manner and you may have evendrawn down on him. In the case of the police... they are trying to make an arrest.

    As you walk down the sidewalk and see some guy do something that resembles the act of drawing and pointing a firearm at you... you are not going to take immediate action since there really is no known threat to you. Now, there could be if someone put out a hit or the guy is just nuts.

    But in the case where you have drawn down and the guy KNOWS someone is pointing a firearm at him.... Obviously, it is going to be in his best interests to STOP and not make any QUICK movements. Especially any such movement that would make you believe he is pulling a gun on you.

    In that crisis moment... most people are going to believe that the guy MUST be drawing a gun on them. Why else would someone be so stupid to make any movement at all when a gun is pointed at them??!!


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    Nutczak wrote:
    WheelGun wrote:
    If you use deadly force, the resulting investigation may actually include items that attest to your expertise (or lack thereof) with firearms. Including books, magazines, training certificates, military experience (including your MOS), etc.
    Your statement is probably true, Do you have any examples of court cases where the persons reading material was brought up in the trial and swayed it either way?

    I am not disputing you, but I remember reading someplacethat if someone is on trial or rape, the prosecution is not able to bring up the defendant's previous rape convictions, or other previous chargesduring the trial. But the defense can bring up how the woman was dressed and her alleged promiscuous lifestyle and try to turn the story around.
    You cannot bring up prior convictions because this can sway the jury. He did it before.. he MUST be guilty on this one too.

    In court... you can trash people all day long and make the victim appear as if it was their fault.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Nutczak wrote:
    WheelGun wrote:
    If you use deadly force, the resulting investigation may actually include items that attest to your expertise (or lack thereof) with firearms. Including books, magazines, training certificates, military experience (including your MOS), etc.
    Your statement is probably true, Do you have any examples of court cases where the persons reading material was brought up in the trial and swayed it either way?

    I am not disputing you, but I remember reading someplacethat if someone is on trial or rape, the prosecution is not able to bring up the defendant's previous rape convictions, or other previous chargesduring the trial. But the defense can bring up how the woman was dressed and her alleged promiscuous lifestyle and try to turn the story around.
    You cannot bring up prior convictions because this can sway the jury. He did it before.. he MUST be guilty on this one too.

    In court... you can trash people all day long and make the victim appear as if it was their fault.
    Depending on the state, victims of rape or other sexual assaults (or many crimes involving child victims) may be shielded from certain forms of cross examination.

    No, I do not have a particular case, but be aware that DAs will subpeona anything that the judge will allow them to get their hands on. Any relevant reading material (or any document whatsoever) can be the subject of a subpeona, particulary any that can be used to determine either 1) the level of training or expertise of the defendant, 2) the culpable mental state of the defendant (used to prove intent).

    As an aside, I have seen news reports that included photographs of American Rifleman, Guns and Ammo, etc. taken inside homes of people that have recently defended themselves. The trial begins on television.

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