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Thread: When would you draw? Incident that happened today at about 530PM.

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    While I was driving through East Bremerton I noticed there was a Man (30ish), near a gas station, yelling at another guy (20ish) about his Anti-Abortion sign. I was driving slow because of traffic and had plenty of time to pull into the gas station. My plan was to mind my own business, but to leave the window down and listen just in case I had to break up a fight. This guy would just not stop yelling about the sign, kept saying that it was way too graphic (had pics of dead babies). After about 5 mins the guy got back into his truck and left, and I went on my way as well.

    When to draw in a situation where someone is waving a gun around and threatening to shoot is not a hard one to answer. But what about in a case like this? Iwas sitting in my car thinking about the tools at hand which were a .38 airweight (concealed VERY well,and a Kershaw. I thought about throwing my gun under the seat of my car because I figured if I had to break up a fight, I might get punched once but would ultimately break up the fight. I didn't for obvious reasons. I just thought that if I felt a life was in danger I would draw. Thankfully, nothing happened.

    Whenwould you draw?When you feel a life is in danger, no doubt. But when should you feel that way? Whensomeone has a gun? When they have a knife? When they are beating someone and there is nothingmore can do about it? When they come after you?

    I always assumed a SD situation would be straight forward, that there would be no question when to draw. When the adrenaline is pumping I could see where it would be easy to make a mistake. Tell me your thoughts so I can be prepared.

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    welcome to forum Quilbilly. I think if you watch videos on following link alot of your questions will get answered.

    http://www.freedombroadcastnetwork.c...n/sdn_main.pdv

    Watch all 23 chapters in self defense it is very informative

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    Thanks that site is AWESOME. Just what I needed.

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    My plan was to mind my own business, but to leave the window down and listen just in case I had to break up a fight.
    ????

    That's not your job.

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    deanf wrote:
    My plan was to mind my own business, but to leave the window down and listen just in case I had to break up a fight.
    ????

    That's not your job.
    If you decide it's not your job, that's your own choice. I personally think it IS my job, depending on the situation - helping out your fellow man is everyone's occupation. If the situation wasn't clear, though, I certainly wouldn't get involved. If it's an arguing match, there's no way I'd take a gun or knife into that to break it up. If I decide to go in, I'd have to be willing to get beat up for it rather than go to jail for unjustified use of deadly force.

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    "Breaking up a fight" implies mutual combat. There's no one to be saved.

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    deanf wrote:
    "Breaking up a fight" implies mutual combat. There's no one to be saved.
    It wouldn't be mutual if one guy was getting stabbed to death, at that time it is okay to draw if it's a fist fight I would notify the police and maybe tell them to stop. I would only intervene if I felt someone would lose their life and in that case I would probably use pepper spray.

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    deanf wrote:
    "Breaking up a fight" implies mutual combat. There's no one to be saved.
    I agree. If you jump in, you become a 'willing combatant' and your claims to self-defense may disappear.

    Most certainly tens of thousands of dollars will disappear from your possession.

    Call 911. Observe. Save your money.

    IMHO

    Carry on.

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    Quilbilly wrote:
    ...I noticed there was a Man (30ish), near a gas station, yelling at another guy (20ish) about his Anti-Abortion sign. I was driving slow because of traffic and had plenty of time to pull into the gas station. My plan was to mind my own business, but to leave the window down and listen just in case I had to break up a fight. This guy would just not stop yelling about the sign, kept saying that it was way too graphic (had pics of dead babies). After about 5 mins the guy got back into his truck and left, and I went on my way as well.
    Did you have a cell phone? If you did, why not call 9-1-1 and be a good reporter?





    Quilbilly wrote:
    When to draw in a situation where someone is waving a gun around and threatening to shoot is not a hard one to answer. But what about in a case like this? Iwas sitting in my car thinking about the tools at hand which were a .38 airweight (concealed VERY well,and a Kershaw...
    You seem wayyyyy too eager...






    Quilbilly wrote:
    I always assumed a SD situation would be straight forward, that there would be no question when to draw.
    Good Lord, man. Whatever gave you that idea?



    Best of luck in any future legal proceedings.

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    Regular Member ghosthunter's Avatar
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    Mind your own business, call 911,

    I cannot say I would not come to another persons aid ifI thought their life was in danger. But I would try every other option I had before walking in to the middle of this.

    Honking the horn, yelling anything. Once you are in it. Your cars in it, your passenger.

    And you will be the guy with the gun.

    We carry firearms for Self Defense.

    My humble opinion worth little to nothing.

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    We carry firearms for Self Defense.
    Actually, Washington state law provides for much more than that, e.g.:
    RCW 9A.16.020 The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:... (3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her...
    RCW 9A.16.050 Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company [emphasis added]
    The catch in the incident cited by the OP, of course, is that intervening when you come upon an incident already in progress puts you in the same sitation as a responding police officer: you have no idea who (if anyone) is the innocent victim.

    So the real caution, IMO, is not that you shouldn't intervene on behalf of third parties, but rather that you shouldn't intervene in unknow situations.



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    Whoah guys. I am NOT eager and I am NOT finding reasons to use my firearm. I had no intention of using my firearm unless someones life was in danger (if you read my post you would see that I almost locked my gun in the car). Someone was already calling the police so I didnt have to. I just didnt want some guygetting his face smashed in because he had a sign. It IS my job to help when I can. And as far as the legal implications go, I will do what I have to untill the police arrive and deal with the legal battle later. I obey Gods laws FIRST and the governments SECOND. I believe being a good samaritanhelping someone in need is well worth it. I

    If you choose not to get involved thats okay. But do not tell me that I shouldnt, you might be the one I try to help tomorrow.



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    deanf wrote:
    "Breaking up a fight" implies mutual combat. There's no one to be saved.
    What about a woman getting beat although she may be trying to fight back I doubt it’s a mutually agreed upon fight.

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    jmlefler wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    "Breaking up a fight" implies mutual combat. There's no one to be saved.
    I agree. If you jump in, you become a 'willing combatant' and your claims to self-defense may disappear.
    I doubt that, a Police officer going to break up a fight can claim self defense if he had to shoot, you have the same right as any police officer when it comes to self defense, even though it his job.

    Going into an argument to break it up does not imply you knew it would result in you trying to defend yourself.



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    Sounds a little similar to a situation I was in a year or so ago. I left work late one night (don't remember the time, but it was well after dark), and a block away from the office was three homeless guys brawling of the sidewalk. I stopped my truck, stepped out (but remained in a position to bail if necessary), and observed the situation for maybe a minute, then called 911. I reported what was going on, and the fight broke up while I was talking to the operator. I let them know where the guys went (they all wandered off in different directions), and as soon as the were out of sight I hung up and left for home. I did see a cop a couple blocks away heading in that direction with cherries but no siren, but he was way too late.

    I know I might get some flack, but in my opinion I did the right thing. While I didn't see any weapons, I still had no idea what these guys were capable of. I didn't see any good outcome from getting involved more than calling in the situation. It's not my job to protect any one of those guys, and it's not really my moral responsibility either.

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    I obey Gods laws FIRST and the governments SECOND.
    So your creed goes something like this: God, Family, Country?

    If so, part of Family is protecting them from harm. You have to be alive, not in jail, and not wrapped up in expensive legal process to do that.

    You protect your family now, and you go on protecting them by not getting involved where you shouldn't. Or would God have it the other way?

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    I really don't know why you guys are reading that Quilbilly was eager to shoot someone, I think that's really great of you to break up a fight. The question is really more when do you draw in aide for someone else and that's if their is disparity of force, like an unarmed man being stabbed.

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    ChuckUFarley wrote:
    ...Police officer going to break up a fight can claim self defense if he had to shoot, you have the same right as any police officer when it comes to self defense, even though it his job.
    I agree completely but unfortunately that does not seems to be the general case these days. In many reports of shooting, or even drawing I have read unless a private individual is actively being shot at, has a gun pulled on him or is being stabbed to death it seems to be a close call between guilty and innocent.

    I have read many reports of cops on the other hand mistakenly killing individuals because they "thought" they had a firearm, or in many situations less then "assured threat" and nothing came of it. They are back on the force a few days later.

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    you are right, it isnt the case anymore.

    I blame Mr. Rogers, that bastard.

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    FogRider wrote:
    Sounds a little similar to a situation I was in a year or so ago. I left work late one night (don't remember the time, but it was well after dark), and a block away from the office was three homeless guys brawling of the sidewalk. I stopped my truck, stepped out (but remained in a position to bail if necessary), and observed the situation for maybe a minute, then called 911. I reported what was going on, and the fight broke up while I was talking to the operator. I let them know where the guys went (they all wandered off in different directions), and as soon as the were out of sight I hung up and left for home. I did see a cop a couple blocks away heading in that direction with cherries but no siren, but he was way too late.

    I know I might get some flack, but in my opinion I did the right thing. While I didn't see any weapons, I still had no idea what these guys were capable of. I didn't see any good outcome from getting involved more than calling in the situation. It's not my job to protect any one of those guys, and it's not really my moral responsibility either.
    Well done. You were a good citizen.

    Honestly, the most important tools for people who want to be Good Samaritans is a cell phone andset of peepers in working order. Also, some modicum of judgment.

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    Thank you Funktrooper and Hank T.

    Deanf - So you would just sit there and call for the police? Maybe yell out the window to the guy being beaten to be calm and the police would be there in a few mins? Maybe even tell him that you would help him...but you are too afraid of a lawsuit? Also, that guy may have a family that depends on him also.

    And my creed is more like this: God, people, country. Family being the first of the people

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    Yet you sat there debating internally whether or not to lock up your gun instead of calling the police for assistance.

    It never is a wrong in these situations to call 911 while you decide what you personally will do.
    CZ 75B 9mm, Ruger P94 .40 S&W, Bersa Thunder .380, AR-15 Homebuild

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    If there are two guys just in a shoving match (as most "fights" are), I'm not getting in the middle of it, especially being armed. I'll call it in and leave it at that. If I see someone getting a serious beatdown; one on the ground and the other still kicking, punching, etc, or someone pulling a weapon, then that's the line in which I'll consider myself having to get involved to save someone from serious bodily harm and risk of death. Then I can articulate I felt someone's life was at risk and also feel that I had the choice to either get involved or watch someone get killed. Otherwise, I won't get involved in someone else's fight, unless there is some serious disparity of force going on (grandma getting shoved around by young punks, etc).

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    J2l3 - You are absolutly right. There was someone who I thought was calling the police so at the time I figured it was taken care of. Looking back I realize that I should have been on my phone as well.



    compmanio365 wrote:
    If there are two guys just in a shoving match (as most "fights" are), I'm not getting in the middle of it, especially being armed. I'll call it in and leave it at that. If I see someone getting a serious beatdown; one on the ground and the other still kicking, punching, etc, or someone pulling a weapon, then that's the line in which I'll consider myself having to get involved to save someone from serious bodily harm and risk of death. Then I can articulate I felt someone's life was at risk and also feel that I had the choice to either get involved or watch someone get killed. Otherwise, I won't get involved in someone else's fight, unless there is some serious disparity of force going on (grandma getting shoved around by young punks, etc).
    This is the sort of answer I was looking for. I agree with you 100%. In my case, there was a serous disparity of force. The older guy was a big guy and was very intimidating to the younger, much smaller guy. It would have been more of a beating, than a fight.

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    If you have to debate whether or not drawing your firearm is a reasonable thing maybe you should rethink why you carry. To me, carry is for my personal protection only. Don't get me wrong, if someone is shooting up a place and they get in my line of sight I would have no problem taking them. Going out of your way to fulfill the hero complex is what gives gun owners a black eye and makes us look like vigilantes.

    We are not judge, jury, and executioners. We are simply humans who want nothing more than to protect our most important natural right: The right to live. If people refuse to take their own lives into their own hands or are simply just careless, then they must rely on societies' form of protection which is the police.

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